But the UK is already out, I have been too lazy to read the signed deal seriously but based on the drafts the deal is essentially a framework for future arrangements. Yes it's worse than being in the EU in 2021 but I have the suspiscion that both sides are going to add new wrinkles discreetly through the specialized commitees while no one is looking. Today the important point was to fix the border and governance issues from that point brexiteers are at the mercy of Westminster/Brussels and bureaucrats from both sides.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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But the UK is already out, I have been too lazy to read the signed deal seriously but based on the drafts the deal is essentially a framework for future arrangements. Yes it's worse than being in the EU in 2021 but I have the suspiscion that both sides are going to add new wrinkles discreetly through the specialized commitees while no one is looking. Today the important point was to fix the border and governance issues from that point brexiteers are at the mercy of Westminster/Brussels and bureaucrats from both sides.
This part I don't understand. Why is Starmer rallying everyone to vote for the deal? They way I see it, the Tories will win this regardless of opposition because they have the majority, right?
So why bother supporting something many of them know is bad?
Really makes all the jokes about Starmer being a closet Tory to be eerily close to reality.
I think you know what I'm saying. When there are mutual negatives, they get presented as mostly or solely negative for the UK.
Right but it's an imbalance of negatives. They are the bigger party. It's a smaller loss for them than us which is why the deal is worse than what we got as part of the trading bloc. The smaller party invariably gets screwed in the deal.
I'm not talking about the deal or concept of Brexit as a whole which is obviously far more severe for the UK than the EU as a block, but specific elements.
Yes but the same is true of specific elements of the deal as is true of the overall deal. The effects on, to take your example, tourism are a much bigger inconvenience for us than they are for them since we're one country (soon to be 4?) and they're 27 countries.
I see. Well, let's take a nice ice cold pint of your favorite bitter, and then we can resume normal discussion.
I think you missed his point. UK people going to EU don't feel it as badly because they always used their passport. People in the EU traveling to UK, however, will suddenly feel a massive difference, because they can no longer enter UK using only their IDs. When you are traveling on a whim over the weekend, would you choose another EU country you can just hop on the Eurostar for a quick getaway? Or would you go apply for your passport and travel to UK for that getaway? If you're going to go for all the hassle of getting a passport, would you go to UK or a more exotic country outside of europe?
Whether this makes a massive impact, I don't have the data, so I don't know. But the logic seems sound. At least to me. I guess we will find out, in a few years time.
Because it was the UK that chose this?
In this case, there are circa 67m tourist trips by UK residents to the EU each year, and 25m tourist trips by EU residents to the UK.
Yes, but it is a negative for the UK, British people before and after Brexit needed a passport to leave the UK to go anywhere, that doesn't change but before Brexit EU citizens didn't need a passport to visit the UK, afterwards they do.
Even my daughter's planned trip to the UK around Easter is a convenient example to visit her mother-in-law. In non-Covid and non -Brexit circumstances she would have bought four tickets for say €50 each return. Three of the family do not have passports so they would have to be bought which would more than double the outlay so the mother-in-law will now visit France (subject to Covid)
We had planned to go to the UK with my wife's sister and family this year but because of Covid was postponed and none of them have passports so will we in the future, who knows. We were coming to the UK with friends as well but that was postponed and they don't have passports either and are not well-off and count the pennies.
I'm sure we're not alone in that situation.
Ok but the EU residents can just go somewhere else. We can only really make short trips via Europe so either we go longer haul or we inconvenience ourselves.
The UK can change the rules and accept ID cards if it wishes, it just judges it not in its interest (at the current time). It's still accepting ID cards as valid for anyone with settled status and other exemptions. This isn't a consequence of Brexit per se, but a unilateral UK decision.
(PS. I think we're still accepting ID cards until 1st October 2021, so your Easter trip would have been OK)
But now people need a visa, so you can't just have an ID card?
No need for a visa for short trips (90 days), same as UK citizen travelling to EU.
Well he certainly cannot vote against it because that would be voting for no deal, which would be stupid in the extreme.
And to abstain would simply be meaningless. He is well aware that this is the only deal that is available. It is neither good nor bad.
It is what it is and the only meaningful thing he can do is to approve it and move on.
Remember, lots of Labour voters voted to leave the EU.
Thanks, I checked the social security coordination remains so both sides can use any ID number and know almost everything about you.
I've got my wedding planned for August 2021. My partner is from Belgium and we're looking to have maybe up to 40 or so people from Belgium making the trip over. Wedding size is somewhere between 80-120 people.
We're naturally looking at postponing it until next year...but if we do that, then it means that all of our friends and family coming from outside the UK will need to get passports or other documentation, rather than just use their ID cards.
It's a monumental pain and you have no idea the amount of stress this has caused. It's just another thing to think about. So, we either keep our current date and risk not having the people that we want there because of the Covid-restrictions with numbers, or we re-book it for next year and force all of these people to pay an additional cost to come over.
Well aware that this is only me we're talking about and that there are people out there with businesses and their livelihoods that they're worried about with these changes, and I feel for them all. There will be others in far more precarious positions who will be worried or frustrated and I can sympathise with them.
I'm very anti-Brexit and the only word that I can come up with to describe this is: unnecessary. I am still waiting to see the gains, because whenever this is talked about, it is always about damage limitation. My Belgian-in-laws, friends and family outside of the UK don't understand why the UK is doing all of this to themselves and for what end.
Yeah, we've driven through the borders in Switzerland and Italy dozens of times and they take no notice of you, even when we were in British cars. The Swiss only check to see if you have one of their vignettes, the Italian one isn't always manned! We've never been asked to show Italian ID or our passports.
If you cross the France-Italy border near Ventimiglia customs may stop you.
I get that. He might also be thinking that the ERG might get together and mount a determined opposition to the deal, in pursuit of no deal. If that did happen there is no way he would want to be seen as sitting on the fence, and by having already decided to vote for the deal he would have a blank cheque to criticise the Tories all round. There's more possible upside to his decision than downside as far as I can see.
Yes it must be a nightmare for you, hope it all works out somehow. There must be many affected by it.
The Brexiters can't come up with a rational positive reason so inevitably it will be nothing but regrets. The UK must be the first nation to voluntarily want to be considerably worse off.
I'm wondering how it'll go driving in a car with Italian plates - both our cars have had to be re-registered here as you can't keep any foreign car in Italy for more than a few months (even from another EU country).
But you know that if he votes for the deal and it isn't a success then the Tories will throw it back in his face saying he voted for it as well as Labour voting to trigger A50. Rock and a hard place.
Yes indeed, but from that point of view abstaining is little better, the Tories would just say he did not oppose it, actually it would be worse because they would add he didn't know what to do, couldn't make his mind up, was weak, showed no leadership, etc. Basic politics.
I seem to have a few more pages than you but can't be bothered to find out what the difference is.
https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2020/EN/COM-2020-857-F1-EN-ANNEX-1-PART-1.PDF
On the whole passport/ID thing. I have two passports, British and Irish. I haven’t used the British one for years (decades?) will it make my life any easier from here? Will I face shorter queues at British airports? Or does the CTA mean the Irish passport will continue to be all I need?
It’s probably expired if you haven’t used it for decades.
I’ve renewed it diligently. Probably a waste of money but there you go.
Pretty sure it's that one yeah. Most UK airports have designated landing gates for "UK and Ireland flights" don't they? From my travels there anyway.
Keep renewing it until you get a hallowed blue one.
The dream.
You renewed a passport you didn’t use? I wish I had your level of organisation
They are supposedly going to stamp the passport with the date of entry and date of departure so you don't exceed the 90 days visa-free. Just like when I was a kid and had a black UK passport.
This is also what blows my mind. It seemed that already a few months after the rederendum the result of a new one would be different, yet even many politicians supporting remain are adamant to see it through.
That's even more nonsensical. If I were a politician, I'd say 'you voted to leave, fine, then see it through or find someone who will, I'm not doing it.' Democracy doesn't mean that the leader has to do the people's bidding but that the people vote for a leader whose visions they support.
I also can't understand how there hasn't been a really serious attempt to turn this around and remain in the EU the way all these negotiations developed. I mean, this is probably the most unnecessary wasre of time in history and a testament to the damage populism can do.
Because for various 'shades' of politician this type of referendum is only held every 40 years or so (and many can see why!). So sometime around 2060 some of our politicians might decide to seek the 'will of the people' once again on such a matter.
She's dutch and uses a passport which she also needed for both her covid tests. It's also a requirement in the hospital, when you take other id, like i did in the summer, they make a note "passport not provided, residence permit shown" so yeah, id cards are ok but dont carry any global clout. if you want to holiday only in europe fine, i've seen 1 person use id card to travel and that was a work trip in the shengen zone.
Oh gawd. Hope you are not advocating another damaging referendum surly....
Because the idiot PM David Cameron said it was a once in a lifetime referendum.