Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Pexbo]

Is this correct though, wouldn't a left of centre vote for the Libs be more likely to result in a hung parliament and necessitate some sort of progressive alliance between Labour, the Libs, SNP, Greens etc? The current polls seem to suggest this.

It would temper Corbyn and further erode the two party system. It would probably be the best outcome in my opinion.

No point discussing that on the macro level. Everyone needs to look at their local constituencies and vote for the candidate with the best chance of ousting the Tory/Brexit candidate.

My constituency Bristol West voted 65% Labour last time and I voted Green as there was no chance the Tories were ever going to win it.

This time around I’ll be voting Labour just to be sure. If I was in my old constituency I’d be voting Lib Dem as it was a Lib Dem seat for years before swinging to the Tories in 2017.

Everyone should be using this website if they are serious about stopping the Tories:
https://tacticalvote.co.uk/

 

[Oldyella]

No point discussing that on the macro level. Everyone needs to look at their local constituencies and vote for the candidate with the best chance of ousting the Tory/Brexit candidate.

My constituency Bristol West voted 65% Labour last time and I voted Green as there was no chance the Tories were ever going to win it.

This time around I’ll be voting Labour just to be sure. If I was in my old constituency I’d be voting Lib Dem as it was a Lib Dem seat for years before swinging to the Tories in 2017.

Everyone should be using this website if they are serious about stopping the Tories:
https://tacticalvote.co.uk/

I'm voting for the TBC party it seems..

 

[Buster15]

I trust that we will all feel terribly sorry for poor David Cameron. He is so traumatised by calling the referendum that he has had to write a book.
I wonder what he will do with the proceeds..
He says that he has sleepless nights and thinks about it every day. Brings me to tears.
Well Mr Cameron. I have news for you. You are not the only one who thinks about it every day.
And instead of wallowing in self induced pity you should think about the damage to the country and about those who have and soon will loose their jobs. They didn’t have the chance to resign and leave others to pick up your mess.
And by the way. I will not be buying your book.

 

[Oldyella]

I trust that we will all feel terribly sorry for poor David Cameron. He is so traumatised by calling the referendum that he has had to write a book.
I wonder what he will do with the proceeds..
He says that he has sleepless nights and thinks about it every day. Brings me to tears.
Well Mr Cameron. I have news for you. You are not the only one who thinks about it every day.
And instead of wallowing in self induced pity you should think about the damage to the country and about those who have and soon will loose their jobs. They didn’t have the chance to resign and leave others to pick up your mess.
And by the way. I will not be buying your book.

Hate the way he has only slinked back into the public eye now he has a book to sell.

 

[Pexbo]

Hate the way he has only slinked back into the public eye now he has a book to sell.

Yeah it's really spoiled my opinion of him.

 

[Buster15]

Hate the way he has only slinked back into the public eye now he has a book to sell.

Quite agree. Not smiling much yet pretending to care.
Completely insincere person who's only asset was to say the first stupid thing that came into his head.

 

[Oldyella]

Yeah it's really spoiled my opinion of him.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Hate the way he has only slinked back into the public eye now he has a book to sell.

To be fair, he was waiting until after Brexit to release it but realised he might be dead before then.

 

[Rams]

The LibDem’s reputation by many goes back to the coalition. The problem is that Brits aren’t used to coalition. A coalition means per definition that the parties in the coalition have to compromise on their principles. It’s a necessary evil to break promises in order to form an effective government, something the British electorate wasn’t ready for. The LibDem’s entered the coalition for the good of the country and naively so. This is why I don’t agree with Mockney’s assumption that the LibDem’s are Tory Wolf’s in Labour sheep clothes. The LibDems are currently the most moderate of the main political parties in the U.K. without a doubt. Not saying you should vote LibDem, just trying to make an objective argument about the LibDems.

 

[sun_tzu]

I think the libs need to think again about revoking A50 without a referendum

If they are successful they virtually guarantee future brexit party and conservative policy will be to withdraw without a referendum

Be interesting to see what official.policy is at the end of the conference

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I think the libs need to think again about revoking A50 without a referendum

If they are successful they virtually guarantee future brexit party and conservative policy will be to withdraw without a referendum

Be interesting to see what official.policy is at the end of the conference

The way I see it is they're just posturing for a hung parliament. They are never getting a majority so that's their only way into power. They take this hard line stance on Brexit now to set out their position in coalition talks with Labour, the likely outcome being a new referendum with a revocation of article 50 remain option on it. Perhaps having 3 or 4 options on it with an elimination process to get to the last 2.

 

[sullydnl]

No point discussing that on the macro level. Everyone needs to look at their local constituencies and vote for the candidate with the best chance of ousting the Tory/Brexit candidate.

My constituency Bristol West voted 65% Labour last time and I voted Green as there was no chance the Tories were ever going to win it.

This time around I’ll be voting Labour just to be sure. If I was in my old constituency I’d be voting Lib Dem as it was a Lib Dem seat for years before swinging to the Tories in 2017.

Everyone should be using this website if they are serious about stopping the Tories:
https://tacticalvote.co.uk/

Indeed. People can argue all they like about whether they'd prefer to opt for a half-heartedly remain Labour party who have a chance of leading the government or a explicitly remain LibDem party who have a chance of exerting disproportionate influence but the the bottom line is that what really matters is having as few Tories as possible get elected.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I trust that we will all feel terribly sorry for poor David Cameron. He is so traumatised by calling the referendum that he has had to write a book.
I wonder what he will do with the proceeds..
He says that he has sleepless nights and thinks about it every day. Brings me to tears.
Well Mr Cameron. I have news for you. You are not the only one who thinks about it every day.
And instead of wallowing in self induced pity you should think about the damage to the country and about those who have and soon will loose their jobs. They didn’t have the chance to resign and leave others to pick up your mess.
And by the way. I will not be buying your book.

Yep. Trying to absolve himself of blame when it all started with him.

 

[Maticmaker]

David Cameron putting his head above the parapet and drawing fire from his old mate Boris, we never learn do we?

The Tories claim to be the Party of Government and this is underpinned by such actions, even when they are stabbing one another in the back they hold on to power, like a limpet!

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Yeah it's really spoiled my opinion of him.

You know there's something really REALLY wrong with the world when I would rather have him back than Johnson or May in charge.

But never George Osbourne. I'd rather shit out my own insides that George Osbourne.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

David Cameron putting his head above the parapet and drawing fire from his old mate Boris, we never learn do we?

The Tories claim to be the Party of Government and this is underpinned by such actions, even when they are stabbing one another in the back they hold on to power, like a limpet!

I think it's more "I'm going to use this to my advantage regardless of how it affects others" which is also a well known Tory trait.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Oh snap, you’ve got it! Let’s look for a completely new, hitherto undiscovered and universally beloved leader for the Labour Party - to assuage an ever dwindling section of pro-status quo liberals, less than a month before an election is called! That’s bound to be the answer! Well done Paul, you’ve saved Western Democracy!

Sorry my hot water bottle and horlicks were getting cold so went to bed at 2.15. (just to let Sweet Square know we're an hour ahead of you here)

You seem to have gone way off track here. My comment was about 2016 the referendum build-up which had nothing to do with the election of 2015 as the Tories were already safely installed with a good majority. So what you're saying is that for the past four years you have a leader who is powerless , looks pensively over his glasses in parliament, but nevertheless votes for no deal (even if he doesn't realise it) and will stay eternally leader of the Labour Party because no-one will ever be able to replace him or could have replaced him since he became leader. The Tories have had three in that time, not that they were good leaders, not that I don't think the Tories are awful, not that I like the LibDems nor have one ounce of sympathy with the Brexit party.

As for an election in 2019, Corbyn will do quite well to come 3rd but that's just my opinion as an observer.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

For the last time The words should have been Pity he didn't campaign more before Brexit to stop it instead of having his own followers voting for their own downfall and falling into Tory hands.

I live in France, I was born British, moved here 12 years ago, never voted LibDems, haven't voted in the UK for donkeys years, will never vote again in the UK, will never live in the UK again, so have no agenda - have a french computer and a french phone -I didn't misunderstand anything, I didn't notice I had missed out the word more like I didn't notice the word is instead of it in a previous post like you probably didn't notice that you typed "he do more" - well do he

I think you already admitted voting Tory while you were in the UK (unless I'm mistaken).

Since you asked in a previous post why people might think you are weird. For me it is the shear number of posts in the various Brexit threads. For someone who is now French and purports to be unconcerned and disinterested.

If the whole of Brexit is a joke and we are now all comedians then you would be the heckler ruining the absurd show.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I think you already admitted voting Tory while you were in the UK (unless I'm mistaken).

Since you asked in a previous post why people might think you are weird. For me it is the shear number of posts in the various Brexit threads. For someone who is now French and purports to be unconcerned and disinterested.

If the whole of Brexit is a joke and we are now all comedians then you would be the heckler ruining the absurd show.

Yes I have voted Tory and Labour whilst in the UK neither of which are LibDems. I now have dual nationality - I'm not concerned but am very interested in how the UK is determined to press the self-destruct button. It's a fascinating story of how a country, the country of my birth, would sink so low.

I don't think the nazis have quite taken over the country yet so presume freedom of speech is still allowed and anyone can post in any thread or forum. Redcafe would be a very small forum if people could only post about United and the UK (but only if you weren't a foreigner) .

 

[Jippy]

I trust that we will all feel terribly sorry for poor David Cameron. He is so traumatised by calling the referendum that he has had to write a book.
I wonder what he will do with the proceeds..
He says that he has sleepless nights and thinks about it every day. Brings me to tears.
Well Mr Cameron. I have news for you. You are not the only one who thinks about it every day.
And instead of wallowing in self induced pity you should think about the damage to the country and about those who have and soon will loose their jobs. They didn’t have the chance to resign and leave others to pick up your mess.
And by the way. I will not be buying your book.

It's going to charity apparently. I'm sure HarperCollins will lose shedloads on this book.

 

[SteveJ]

It's going to charity apparently. I'm sure HarperCollins will lose shedloads on this book.

I swear publishers often sign famous people just for the perceived coup, all the while knowing they'll make a loss.

 

[MadMike]

@MadMike Go for it mate, be patronising! You’ve already used the term “Corbynist” twice, even though I’ve spent multiple posts in this thread arguing against that very mindset, have demonstrably never claimed to be an acolyte of his, nor defended him from anything that wasn’t obvious media defamatory (or sensible centrists like Paul outright lying about his history) and have a long standing (and long winded!) DM thread with @Sweet Square and @berbatrick where I persistently push back against, and debate my problems with their type of Bernie/Corbyn style leftism (as I’m sure they’ll testify)....

but yeah, sure, accusing me of cultishy Corbynism because I agree with 80% of Labour policies, and don’t think voting for a politically empty party of slimy self serving politicos, whose entire MO rests on persuading similarly empty swing voters that they’re somewhat progressive because “Corbyn bad!” is a worthwhile progressive action. Maybe I’m biased? Possibly because I happen live in the (now former) constituency of Chuka Umuna, the biggest faux-liberal fraud of all time, and am naturally predisposed to think that anyone conned by his style of politics is probably a disingenuous cnut!? Mea culpa if so!

And nothing convinces sensible liberals of the evils of Corbynism, than the bizarrely timed establishment insistence that the best moment to undermine him is during his most popular and successful sustained attack on the current quasi-fascist Conservative Government!

But by all means, bring up as many obfuscating nonsense factoids as you like to convince yourself you’re not felicitating a Right Wing victory by voting for a bunch of status quo yellow Tories and against the biggest opposition party... Cool beans bruv, you do you!....but as I said, history won’t absolve you this time.

As long as you’re cool with that.

Jesus H Christ, what hapenned here...

So Lib Dem voters are basically sociopaths just without the t-shirt, enablers of quasi-fascism and empty husks of voters, devoid of strong convictions. All points underpinned by the calibre of arguments that would make a flat-earther blush. But god forbid you accuse Corbyn supporters of groupthink and call them Corbynistas while they prattle the above... that's the real insult and condescension here. That's coming across as a bit thin skinned mate. Not a good look.

When facts become obfuscating nonsense factoids, you're one step away from Trumpist post-Truth. Careful you don't become the monsters you so diligently fight against. As with the parable of the Sith and the absolutes, I would encourage you to refrain from espousing the "if you're not with us, you're against" dogma. All it does is cloud your judgement and arrest critical thinking.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

No one who isn’t an outright sociopath wants to vote Tory... but voting Lib Dem allows you to basically vote Tory, without feeling really awfully quite bad about it. In a bumblingly charming Hugh Grant kind of a way.

This is one of the arguments which my daughter in law used in the last election which brought me around to voting for Corbyn but I'm not sure it holds much water now because every vote for Labour is taken by the hard left as an endorsement of their leader his policies and strategy.

For example, former Labour voters decided to not vote Labour in the European elections while Corbyn was still in "honouring the referendum/we need a general election" mode. It is only pressure from people not doing what you think they should do that changed labour's position in the first place.

Also the labour membership voted for the most extreme left candidate to move the party from the center-left. You can't then lay the blame for the lack of enthusiasm to vote hard left on those voters . The consequences of the memberships decision, which had been regularly stated as a likely outcome throughout that campaign rest with people who supported Corbyn in that leadership election and no one else.

If the analysis that you can't win UK elections from the hard left is wrong. labour win a majority and well played Corbyn. If not you can't cite betrayal by the anti-Tory but now non Labour voters for not uniting behind a candidate who clearly doesn't want their votes and thinks he can replace them from else where and still win any way.

I will wait to see the policy positions taken before deciding which way or even if I vote next time.

If that leads to a Tory hard Brexit then we are all fecked. On the other hand while yellow hammer has pointed out the heavy down side of no deal Brexit, I am taken aback by the anger and threats from Brexiteers about what they will do if we delay leaving any further or cancel it. To be honest I think we are probably all fecked now either way.

 

[MadMike]

Is this correct though, wouldn't a left of centre vote for the Libs be more likely to result in a hung parliament and necessitate some sort of progressive alliance between Labour, the Libs, SNP, Greens etc? The current polls seem to suggest this.

It would temper Corbyn and further erode the two party system. It would probably be the best outcome in my opinion.

Careful, such thinking could see you labelled as a fascist-enabler by the true progressives of our society.

As @Pexbo pointed, the micro level does indeed matter too. Though I disagree with his assertion that the macro analysis is pointless. It's proven relevant in elections many times over.

 

[Kentonio]

The endless back and forth on Corbyn is boring and pointless, it’s not like anyone is going to change their minds about him now. He’s definitely taking Labour into the next election, so can we all just agree that if he wins it he’s a genius, and if he loses it he should feck off and give someone else a chance?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

The endless back and forth on Corbyn is boring and pointless, it’s not like anyone is going to change their minds about him now. He’s definitely taking Labour into the next election, so can we all just agree that if he wins it he’s a genius, and if he loses it he should feck off and give someone else a chance?

As long as we agree on the biased media coverage on him too?

 

[T00lsh3d]

The endless back and forth on Corbyn is boring and pointless, it’s not like anyone is going to change their minds about him now. He’s definitely taking Labour into the next election, so can we all just agree that if he wins it he’s a genius, and if he loses it he should feck off and give someone else a chance?

Sounds good, would he though (feck off if he loses)?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Sounds good, would he though (feck off if he loses)?

I highly doubt it.

 

[MadMike]

The endless back and forth on Corbyn is boring and pointless, it’s not like anyone is going to change their minds about him now. He’s definitely taking Labour into the next election, so can we all just agree that if he wins it he’s a genius, and if he loses it he should feck off and give someone else a chance?

What happens if he loses the election, comes second to the Tories, but no one gets a majority? Does he feck off and let someone else come in at that time?

Or is the expectation that centre and centre-left parties install him in government, bascially at gunpoint, under the threat that not caving in is allowing the fascists to take charge? Somehow absolving themselves of the same responsibility in the process.

Why do I get the feel that his supporters would demand the latter stance. Instead of recognising the lack of public support for him and his policies?

 

[T00lsh3d]

I highly doubt it.

You and me both. Plus there aren’t exactly other contenders banging the door down

 

[711]

@MadMike Go for it mate, be patronising! You’ve already used the term “Corbynist” twice, even though I’ve spent multiple posts in this thread arguing against that very mindset, have demonstrably never claimed to be an acolyte of his, nor defended him from anything that wasn’t obvious media defamatory (or sensible centrists like Paul outright lying about his history) and have a long standing (and long winded!) DM thread with @Sweet Square and @berbatrick where I persistently push back against, and debate my problems with their type of Bernie/Corbyn style leftism (as I’m sure they’ll testify)....

but yeah, sure, accusing me of cultishy Corbynism because I agree with 80% of Labour policies, and don’t think voting for a politically empty party of slimy self serving politicos, whose entire MO rests on persuading similarly empty swing voters that they’re somewhat progressive because “Corbyn bad!” is a worthwhile progressive action. Maybe I’m biased? Possibly because I happen live in the (now former) constituency of Chuka Umuna, the biggest faux-liberal fraud of all time, and am naturally predisposed to think that anyone conned by his style of politics is probably a disingenuous cnut!? Mea culpa if so!

And nothing convinces sensible liberals of the evils of Corbynism, than the bizarrely timed establishment insistence that the best moment to undermine him is during his most popular and successful sustained attack on the current quasi-fascist Conservative Government!

But by all means, bring up as many obfuscating nonsense factoids as you like to convince yourself you’re not felicitating a Right Wing victory by voting for a bunch of status quo yellow Tories and against the biggest opposition party... Cool beans bruv, you do you!....but as I said, history won’t absolve you this time.

As long as you’re cool with that.

I like felicitating, it sounds good. I'm going try sneaking it in post or two when everyone's forgotten it's one of yours.

 

[WensleyMU]

Both labour and the lib Dems are terrible terrible parties.

The laughable Tory party is ahead of them both in the polls, has been in government for 9 years despite making numerous mistakes and miscalculations and tearing itself apart and still, it is a better option than the truly inept shite offered by the alternatives...

Corbyns amazing Labour party attracts about half as much support as Blair's in 1997. Just think about that for a moment. And since the Lib Dems because a one policy party, the remain version of the Brexit Party, they've become a slight bit more relevant that utterly irrelevant.

The undeniable fact however is that they are all fecking shite. How anyone can defend any of them is baffling.

 

[Tarrou]

Both labour and the lib Dems are terrible terrible parties.

The laughable Tory party is ahead of them both in the polls, has been in government for 9 years despite making numerous mistakes and miscalculations and tearing itself apart and still, it is a better option than the truly inept shite offered by the alternatives...

Corbyns amazing Labour party attracts about half as much support as Blair's in 1997. Just think about that for a moment. And since the Lib Dems because a one policy party, the remain version of the Brexit Party, they've become a slight bit more relevant that utterly irrelevant.

The undeniable fact however is that they are all fecking shite. How anyone can defend any of them is baffling.

You're defending the Tories in this very post

Anyway, I'd happily defend Corbyn's stance on foreign affairs and defence and that is the reason I'll vote for him

 

[WensleyMU]

You're defending the Tories in this very post

Anyway, I'd happily defend Corbyn's stance on foreign affairs and defence and that is the reason I'll vote for him

I'm acknowledging they are bad, but still better than the alternatives. It speaks more about the alternatives than anything else because the Tory party are currently on par with the Michael Howard and IDS leadership days... A credible opposition would crush them, as Labour did back then.

 

[Tarrou]

I'm acknowledging they are bad, but still better than the alternatives. It speaks more about the alternatives than anything else because the Tory party are currently on par with the Michael Howard and IDS leadership days... A credible opposition would crush them, as Labour did back then.

I don't know how you can say that given how bad they've been, the country is in total chaos right now. At the end of the day we're only guessing how the other parties might do.

 

[WensleyMU]

I don't know how you can say that given how bad they've been, the country is in total chaos right now. At the end of the day we're only guessing how the other parties might do.

By looking at the alternatives...

Despite how bad the Tory are, and it's very bad, the opposition party's (not including the SNP as they represent Scotland and Scotland alone) offer nothing.

Polls also indicate this, with Tory leads ranging from 1 point to 10+ across various polls.

 

[nickm]

No one who isn’t an outright sociopath wants to vote Tory... but voting Lib Dem allows you to basically vote Tory, without feeling really awfully quite bad about it. In a bumblingly charming Hugh Grant kind of a way.

Nonsense. If there’s nobody to vote for, there’s always someone to vote against. The Lib Dem’s enable this function perfectly well, especially when either labour or the tories (or both, currently) are particularly repellent.

 

[nickm]

Oh snap, you’ve got it! Let’s look for a completely new, hitherto undiscovered and universally beloved leader for the Labour Party - to assuage an ever dwindling section of pro-status quo liberals, less than a month before an election is called!

I’d settle for competent at this point, if it improved the chances of kicking the Tories out. A low bar, I know, but presumably one that should be easier to clear.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Swinson has, equally vehemently, ruled out working with Johnson. Very likely she'll have to work with one or the other, the way things seem to be going. I doubt either Labour or Tories will get a majority with both SNP and Lib Dems poised to take many seats off them. So I find it hard to take her at her word, without really any hint of cognitive dissonance, because when push comes to shove she'll have a decision to make that contradicts her current stance.

The way she's played it so far, she's pulled MPs from both Labour and the Tories and more than a quarter of her MPs are recent arrivals. She is therefore holding together, inside her own parliamentary group, a loose alliance of people united under a Remain banner but who aren't really Liberals and aren't particularly loyal to her or the party. And some of these would loathe to work with Bojo or Corbyn respectively. So when she's being asked now if she'll work with any of them post-election, she of course says "Hell no" cause how else do you keep that group together and united for the upcoming battles in parliament?

If she manages to do well in the next election, grow the party to 40-odd MPs like in elections past, and get to play the role Kingmaker... then these Labour/Tory acquisitions will have to tow her line or they become throwaway. Some won't hold their seats anyway. But till then, and with an election looming, she's gonna forge her own way and act strong, independent and neutral. Which tends to attract voters more than appearing keen to get into bed with anyone.

So she's putting her party ahead of country? Do you think she believes the rubbish she's spouting in the article below?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/lib-dem-leader-jo-swinson-20054751

 

[Fluctuation0161]

By looking at the alternatives...

Despite how bad the Tory are, and it's very bad, the opposition party's (not including the SNP as they represent Scotland and Scotland alone) offer nothing.

Polls also indicate this, with Tory leads ranging from 1 point to 10+ across various polls.

Polls haven't been particularly accurate in recent years. Your strawman argument for the Tories is not very strong. Too much assumption, Tory bias and arrogance/ignorance. Ironically some of the very same attributes that are wrong with the Tory government.