Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Cheesy said:
It won't, his point is that the way some Remainers sell the benefits of the EU is one that fundamentally doesn't appeal to Brexiteers in the same way. Hence why we have so much division between both sides of the argument right now.
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One of the main reasons we are in such a mess now, is because of the uncertainty of the last 3 years (is it 3 or 2 1/2, I lose count).

If we had maintained the status quo, we would be in a much stronger position now, because, instead of fecking wasting all of Parliaments time on this fecking bullshit, and the billions thrown into it, there would have been plenty of time to tackle the real issues that affect actual people.
 
Sassy Colin said:
And in what delusional situation does Brexit do anything other than exacerbate these issues?
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JPRouve said:
That's my question, you are directly putting these people's jobs or job prospects in jeopardy. It's like poisoning a well in the Sahara and wondering why people should care about it, they are used to water being scarce.
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FFS who the heck is arguing that it does. My point is simply that when you are at the bottom of the pile simply saying 'well of course you will be worse off' did not and will not work. For example saying that housing prices would fall by 10 to 15 percent means sod all unless you either own your home or have a mortgage.
 
MadMike said:
Voted by the working classes too. Also massively voted by affluent middle England, especially from non-metropolitan areas.
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Don't forget wasn't the original anti-Brexit march dubbed the Waitrose march? Here: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...march-against-brexit-but-what-of-lidl-britain

Taking part in Saturday’s huge demonstration (People’s Vote: Call to harness energy of march to lobby MPs, 22 October) was exciting and uplifting, if a bit monocultural, as if the entire clientele of Waitrose had gathered on Park Lane. But its emphatic pro-EU stance made the campaign look like a vast consolation hug for disappointed remainers, which opponents can too easily write off as just another attempt to subvert the referendum result.
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You work in London, I have met hardly anyone who supports Brexit and we have a lot of high net worth clients and a lot of the staff come from affluent families.
 
Virgil said:
This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
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The ironic/funny thing about Brexit is that it’s championed by elites who stand to gain from it financially or career wise. BoJo has gone from being the UK clown to PM!
Meanwhile the common man will suffer job losses, price hikes and less choice on their supermarket shelves. It’s the biggest con job in British history
 
golden_blunder said:
The ironic/funny thing about Brexit is that it’s championed by elites who stand to gain from it financially or career wise. BoJo has gone from being the UK clown to PM!
Meanwhile the common man will suffer job losses, price hikes and less choice on their supermarket shelves. It’s the biggest con job in British history
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...But Corbyn is the problem.
 
Red Dreams said:
...But Corbyn is the problem.
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Corbyn is one of the reasons why remain lost the vote. He did very little then and has sat on the fence for nearly 3 years. Labour should have led the way with “look what the tories are doing to the country” but he didn’t because he’s a long term euro skeptic himself.
 
golden_blunder said:
Corbyn is one of the reasons why remain lost the vote. He did very little then and has sat on the fence for nearly 3 years. Labour should have led the way with “look what the tories are doing to the country” but he didn’t because he’s a long term euro skeptic himself.
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He did not want remain without any conditions.

But we are losing focus if we do not see that there should never have been a vote.
 
Red Dreams said:
He did not want remain without any conditions.

But we are losing focus if we do not see that there should never have been a vote.
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I've said all along there should never have been a vote.

Regarding Corbyn, if he wanted a reform to the EU he wouldn't be able to do that from being outside it, what better way than being PM and doing something from the inside but he's completely c*cked up because now neither will happen.
 
Red Dreams said:
He did not want remain without any conditions.

But we are losing focus if we do not see that there should never have been a vote.
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Corbyn is Mr Brexit. People like Farage and Banks are basically hardcore remainers in comparison.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I've said all along there should never have been a vote.

Regarding Corbyn, if he wanted a reform to the EU he wouldn't be able to do that from being outside it, what better way than being PM and doing something from the inside but he's completely c*cked up because now neither will happen.
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We don't know what will happen until a GE is called.

But its important to note that we elect governments to Govern, not abdicate.

For me the current situation is either we continue balancing the budget on the back of the poor or we try and save the welfare state. So there is no option but Labour.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I've said all along there should never have been a vote.

Regarding Corbyn, if he wanted a reform to the EU he wouldn't be able to do that from being outside it, what better way than being PM and doing something from the inside but he's completely c*cked up because now neither will happen.
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He doesn't want to reform the EU.

He may claim to do so now, because he's a power mad career politician desperate to cling onto to control of the Labour party, but given the chance, he would leave without a deal, severe all ties and declare the UK a Soviet Kingdom....

Slightly exaggerated
 
Red Dreams said:
We don't know what will happen until a GE is called.

But its important to note that we elect governments to Govern, not abdicate.

For me the current situation is either we continue balancing the budget on the back of the poor or we try and save the welfare state. So there is no option but Labour.
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I don't see a GE before Brexit but if there was I don't see Corbyn winning it but even if he did would he be backing remain or his own deal he wants to negotiate.
The best way to save the welfare state would be to remain which is why I didn't understand Labour's lack of enthusiasm for remain but then renationalising is presumably more important.
 
WensleyMU said:
He doesn't want to reform the EU.

He may claim to do so now, because he's a power mad career politician desperate to cling onto to control of the Labour party, but given the chance, he would leave without a deal, severe all ties and declare the UK a Soviet Kingdom....

Slightly exaggerated
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I have never believed for one minute since I first knew of Corbyn in the run-up to the referendum that he was anything other than a Brexiteer.
 
Virgil said:
This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
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To a degree you’re right, but things like the ability to work or study in Europe aren’t some gold-plated elevator/silver spoon perks that only elites enjoy, they’re aspirational opportunities that are open to poor kids too. I’m from a broke ass former mining village and yet I ended up working in various European counties and now living in one. My French girlfriend comes from a poor family yet studied in the UK thanks to Erasmus funding.

Freedom of movement is the democratization of movement. Take it away and suddenly it really is just the well off who can afford to do these things, just like it was in the past.
 
Virgil said:
This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.

Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
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Do you know what. I had to read this a number of times just to check that it wasn’t a joke.
Firstly, what has any of those things like food banks or zero hours contracts got to do with the EU.
Answer. Nothing.

And secondly. How have you arrived at the conclusion that the EU is a club for the privileged.
Are Greece or Poland for example privileged.

And I take it that you are aware of the EU position on workers rights and that being a prime reason for Labour stance on remaining in the EU.
I could go on but the rest is so obvious that it is hardly worth it.
 
Tory's keep saying the backstop is undemocratic, so why don't they accept the WA with the provision that NI get get a referendum with a choice of a hard border in Ireland or remaining within the Customs Union?
 
golden_blunder said:
Corbyn is one of the reasons why remain lost the vote. He did very little then and has sat on the fence for nearly 3 years. Labour should have led the way with “look what the tories are doing to the country” but he didn’t because he’s a long term euro skeptic himself.
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Completely agree with you.
I am actually very annoyed with the ineffective and dithering way that the party I have long supported has handled this highly significant issue.
 
Skills said:
Tory's keep saying the backstop is undemocratic, so why don't they accept the WA with the provision that NI get get a referendum with a choice of a hard border in Ireland or remaining within the Customs Union?
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I don't get how the backstop is undemocratic when 27 of the 28 EU nations voted for it. With that in mind it's undemocratic for the UK not to accept it.
 
Fully Fledged said:
I don't get how the backstop is undemocratic when 27 of the 28 EU nations voted for it. With that in mind it's undemocratic for the UK not to accept it.
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Well I'm guessing the reasoning is that the UK including NI voted to leave the EU, but the backstop keeps them in.
 
Skills said:
Well I'm guessing the reasoning is that the UK including NI voted to leave the EU, but the backstop keeps them in.
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But 27 of 28 voted for it while we are still members of the EU. Shouldn't we go with the democratic vote.
I am being slightly satirical because I find the "it's undemocratic argument" that forces 27 other countries with a population close to half a billion to do the bidding of 70 odd million ridicules.
 
Fully Fledged said:
But 27 of 28 voted for it while we are still members of the EU. Shouldn't we go with the democratic vote.
I am being slightly satirical because I find the "it's undemocratic argument" that forces 27 other countries with a population close to half a billion to do the bidding of 70 odd million ridicules.
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Think of it like the UK exercising it's veto. Basically, regardless of how many vote for, of any of the nation's with a veto, vote against, then it doesn't pass.
 
WensleyMU said:
Think of it like the UK exercising it's veto. Basically, regardless of how many vote for, of any of the nation's with a veto, vote against, then it doesn't pass.
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Exercising their veto on something that they proposed and due to an issue that they caused. That's special.
 
JPRouve said:
Exercising their veto on something that they proposed and due to an issue that they caused. That's special.
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Yeh, probably should have put it to parliament first to see if it would pass.

Anyway, I was only showing that the way the EU works is that a single vote against can prevent it passing.
 
WensleyMU said:
Yeh, probably should have put it to parliament first to see if it would pass.

Anyway, I was only showing that the way the EU works is that a single vote against can prevent it passing.
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You showed nothing, the UK didn't seat as EU members during these talks. They are the party of the negotiation, the EU are the 27 who agreed on a position.
 
JPRouve said:
You showed nothing, the UK didn't seat as EU members during these talks. They are the party of the negotiation, the EU are the 27 who agreed on a position.
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I didn't say it was.

The poster was asking why it wasn't seen as undemocratic. I used a simple example of how the EU works to show why. Not the best example, granted.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Don't forget wasn't the original anti-Brexit march dubbed the Waitrose march? Here: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...march-against-brexit-but-what-of-lidl-britain

You work in London, I have met hardly anyone who supports Brexit and we have a lot of high net worth clients and a lot of the staff come from affluent families.
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The key in my sentence was non-metropolitan. Although I should have probably said non-cosmopolitan.

Apart from London, Brighton, Reading, Oxford and Cambridge... pretty much the rest of the South-East/East all the way up to the midlands voted Brexit.

Essex, Kent, Beds, Herts, Bucks... the lot. And a lot of these areas have fairly affluent middle class populations.
 
golden_blunder said:
NI voted to remain though

We’re about to get fucjed for something ENGLAND wants
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Northern Ireland didn't vote to remain.

The SNP is always banging on about how its against their will as well. Scotland nor NI are, nor have ever been member of the EU as nations themselves.
 
Massive Spanner said:
What the hell are you on about? They most definitely did.
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I suppose that he is insinuating that the results in NI don't matter because they aren't a country and that only UK wide results are meaningful.
 
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