That is impossible though - NI simply is not big enough and doesnt have the necessary infrastructure (physically, economically, socially) to become an independent state.
The UK would have to continue to support NI with some sort of transition with Ireland as you say which would likely be for decades. UK would not have a choice in this by the way as it is set within the Good Friday Agreement that states that it “will be a binding obligation on both governments to introduce and support in their respective parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish' should a border poll suceed.
... l have no idea what vision Leave have of the future after Brexit.
I don't think anyone did. Brexit meant different things to different people, above all it meant change to most people, whether you call these the left behind, the stupid, the gormless, patriots, racists, whatever there was a chance to change things which 17.4 m voted for. Brexit its clear, especially if a hard Brexit, will become a catalyst for political change not just in the UK but also in the EU. Some will see Brexit as an idea whose time as come, others as a self induced injury/mistake, the fact remains (forgive the pun) there is no going back now. There will be hiccups in the economies of both the UK and the EU, but these will heal overtime, probably fairly quickly, but as usual with such changes there will be winners and losers.
Brexit is essentially about (and always had) the potential for Political change; Boris perhaps more than most recognised this and chose the right side. Boris is probably hoping for some change in the Irish position on the back-stop which will convince the EU to make some concession that he can get through the HoP; he may even suggest that if they play ball then in the next five years he will get the DUP to agree to an United Ireland vote (assuming he's still in power!) or at least a vote on a potential Confederation of Irish States within an All Ireland remit, with the UK backing the proposal with some of the £39B, if it eventually becomes no deal ,or if some sort of backstop is required.
Boris may also try to push the SNP to press the self destruct button and go for a 2nd Indy ref, but on the wrong basis, lose for a second time and kill independence stone dead, this time for more than a generation. Or, having been successful in an independence vote the SNP realises the loss of Fastlane, the change in currency and the withdrawal of many English businesses, will off set any gain of Scotland remaining in the EU (if it was able to do so).
If there is no last minute deal Boris's last card is to offer a GE on the eve of Brexit, even if he survives a no confidence vote.
It was there in the big red bus.However, I don't remember any positives that the Leave campaign pointed out
I agree with most of what your saying re brexit and border poll etc.
However if/when it comes to agreeing the financial assistance required to make a new Ireland work, don't forget that the EU and possibly America would make massive amounts of funding available. The burden wouldn't just sit with the UK or Irish governments.
I actually think it's pretty inevitable it will happen now....
It was there in the big red bus.
not sure about that - really cant see the DUP voting for it under any circumstances
I do wonder how the SNP would vote if he said put through brexit and you can have indy ref 2 and the UK government will remain neutral in the campaign ... would they go for that?
Anyone can talk rubbish and tell lies which was all the Leave campaign was about which you've readily admitted above. People believed what they wanted to believe and if they were daft enough to believe the Leave campaign then they are going to suffer the consequences thereafter.
May made some catastrophic errors and remain didnt emphasise the positives enough and furthermore the benefits of the EU have never, since the very beginning, been promoted in the UK because the governments of all colours have used it as a scapegoat for their failures (which doesn't mean that the EU is perfect either).
That is impossible though - NI simply is not big enough and doesnt have the necessary infrastructure (physically, economically, socially) to become an independent state.
The UK would have to continue to support NI with some sort of transition with Ireland as you say which would likely be for decades. UK would not have a choice in this by the way as it is set within the Good Friday Agreement that states that it “will be a binding obligation on both governments to introduce and support in their respective parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish' should a border poll suceed.
indeed - If they are being strategic this would be the perfect opportunity to allow scotland an indy ref as without the scottish seats in parliament the conservatives would have a distinct electoral advantageThe DUP (through Brexit) will have possibly seen the writing on the wall, underpinned by the recent legal changes forced through from England (abortion etc.). Nothing will be the same after Brexit everyone can agree that, the ones who make the smart moves now are those who survive, or at least have a chance of turning things their way. All four countries in the UK will need to re-examine their positions, the polls such as the one that suggests a majority of Tories would see giving up on NI as a way forward, should be a warning...for all!
More people voted for Brexit that for anything else in UK history.
If NI voted to leave I wouldn't count on getting anything from the UK. I don't see how a UK government gets elected while proposing to continue shelling out tax payers money to support a now foreign country.
There are more and more people I talk to who would see Scotland and N Ireland voting to leave the UK as an enormous win for England and a positive for Brexit.
Only narrowly beating the number of people who voted against Brexit.
What's your point?
The reality is, they didn't know of any positives to promote, and they still don't.
Narrowly? It's hard to consider over a million people as "narrowly" but I understand this is the spin the losing side have put in it.
The point is pretty obvious if you aren't stupid. It's a record breaking number of people voting for the same thing.
Narrowly? It's hard to consider over a million people as "narrowly" but I understand this is the spin the losing side have put in it.
The point is pretty obvious if you aren't stupid. It's a record breaking number of people voting for the same thing.
And herein lies the problem.
You leavers couldn't give a flying feck about the almost 50% of voters who voted against it.
It's the percentage not the number, the chances are that remain was the second most voted for thing ever.
This i agree with, its just like a postcode lottery.Immigration should be fair for all, whether from France or from Thailand.
They didn't go about it in the right way,and even now looking from outside the UK I don't see any figure as a leader of remain. There are various Tories, there are various Labour, there is a weak LibDem and there's the SNP. Tory and Labour are hamstrung by their parties with a Brexiteer in charge of both.
The positives are all the things that people have taken for granted for many years and sadly a lot of people who have voted leave expect will still be there when the Uk have left, it's only when they're not there will they realise what the benefits were.
Trying to promote things that are already there, when people's lives may not be as good as they want them to be, is not easy and takes some convincing but things can always get worse even for those people who thought they were very badly off.
But to fill peoples minds with false promises is easy if your public is receptive.
It wasn't. The 1975 EU referendum was 2nd.
I
What are the positives?
This is the toughest question for any remain voter. You say things we take for granted, but what are those things?
Thats because Brexit at it's heart is all about English nationalism.
And the reason some leave voters do not care about remain voters is simple. The garbage and bile that many hard-line remainers use. The whole thing became very bitter and the fault for that lies with elements of the remain vote.
This is a valid point and has been misunderstood or misrepresented in the Brexit debate.
For years now the 'English' have listened to Scotland, NI and Wales proclaiming various ethnic disputes, language, etc. also voting rights, tax raising powers etc. Each country has had somewhere to go voice its concerns, the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and when it sits, Stormont. However whilst Parliament in Westminster has a UK wide jurisdiction, there is nowhere for the English to go and present English only issues. The concept of the UK (and hence England) being furthered consumed in the EU jurisdiction (further integration towards a United States of Europe) only added to the resentment that a great many 'English' were beginning to feel.
Depending on your point of view the Referendum on Brexit came at the right/wrong time but it tapped into this vein of long dormant English nationalism, which ultimately may see a significant change in the way the UK functions, or even exists. The need for a 'UK brand' is self evident and will need protecting, but the basis for this going forward, must be by consent, no country should therefore be able to leave, unless a majority across the UK as a whole agrees. Interesting times ahead.
Easy, move about unhindered in Europe, go to live anywhere in the EU, go to work anywhere in the EU , go to study anywhere in the EU ,have goods move about unhindered with no duties, VAT to pay between countries, cheap holidays , cheap flights, choice of various goods in shops which depend on urgent deliveries. For others jobs in the UK, no withdrawal of foreign investment, disappearance of industry in the UK, no collapse of your currency , being in a strong bloc able to negotiate better deals than any country could possibly do alone.
A few to start with, now name any positive of leaving - and no falsehoods or empty promises.
As for the nationality of immigrants, does that really bother Leavers or is it just immigrants full stop. Remember Farage doesn't like hearing people talking in foreign languages on buses.
look at virgil being elite enough to afford its benefits.This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.
Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.
Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
And in what delusional situation does Brexit do anything other than exacerbate these issues?
Yep.Thats because Brexit at it's heart is all about English nationalism.
This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.
Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
This post makes me so uneasy. There is much in it I agree with but elements that totally exasperate me and want to bang heads together if only because it demonstrates why we lost the argument. What use are the embolden parts to those existing on food banks. The multitude of workers on zero hours contracts. Single parents struggling to survive. Those whose only source of employment is working in fast food chains, cleaners, checkout operatives, shelf stackers.....I could go on but I am sure you get the drift. Then when we can add into the equation disappearing industries and what that means for those aged between 50 and 60 who never knew work other than steel, ship building, engineering, mining etc. Now I am aware the charge will be laid at me that its up to individual countries to resolves those issues. For me that does not cut it as it absolves the EU as an institution acting on behalf of all to promote policies amongst the 28 (at least for now) to address such issues.
Yep the current set up of the EU is truly wonderful for those of us that are elite enough to take advantage of its many benefits. Trouble is there is a great big swathe of folks that for one reason or another it totally overlooks and ignores. The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
The one thing I do so hope comes out of this whole sorry mess is a real shakeup of politics not only in the UK but across Europe in general. The political elite on all sides have gotten away with it for far too long. Currently a club for the privileged rather than for all IMHO.
These are a few of the benefits, there are many more and you didn't embolden the parts relating to industry, jobs etc I stated which will undoubtedly disappear because of Brexit. Therefore I would like to know how leaving the EU, whether there are faults with the EU or not will make the peoples lives you listed any better. Why do people always refer to the elite, it's a catchphrase started by that moron Farage who is trying to convince people he's not. I'm not thinking of rich people, I 'm thinking of ordinary people. They will be the first to suffer from this.
And in what delusional situation does Brexit do anything other than exacerbate these issues?
The vast majority of British industry collapsed while we were members of the European Union. Please note I haven't said "because of".
It won't, his point is that the way some Remainers sell the benefits of the EU is one that fundamentally doesn't appeal to Brexiteers in the same way. Hence why we have so much division between both sides of the argument right now.
