Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Damien]

What's the general Brexit sentiment on redcafe then?

I assuming there was poll at some point.

Here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum-uk-residents-vote-today.404633/

Prior to the vote:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?
Yes: 482 vote(s) 73.8%
No: 171 vote(s) 26.2%

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum-results-thread-leave-have-won-cameron-resigns.418893/

After the vote:
How did you vote to this: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?
Remain a member of the European Union: 321 vote(s) 75.5%
Leave the European Union: 80 vote(s) 18.8%
Spoiled ballot: 24 vote(s) 5.6%

As you can see from that as well as the 2015 and 2017 GE threads, the caf is generally left leaning and not indicative of what the general public think.

 

[Massive Spanner]

As you can see from that as well as the 2015 and 2017 GE threads, the caf is generally left leaning and not indicative of what the general public think.

I find most internet forums are.

Generally because they tend to have a quite young, well informed, and educated demographic, for the most part, discounting Billy. So it actually lines up pretty well with the voting percentages in that chart above I'd say.

They're certainly not a good benchmark to set for this stuff!

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I get the impression that the only thing that matters in the UK is Tories vs Labour. Nothing else matters as long as your pet politician is not criticised.

You're right Paul. Labour voters were 65% remain in the referendum, more remain than Northern Ireland and even more remain than the deeply EUrophilic Scots. The Labour membership is overwhelmingly in favour of a second referendum yet Corbyn can somehow legitimately appease his racist base and pursue Brexit whilst playing his part in depriving the electorate of a second referendum.

How is this possible? Because the hard left Labour party identity, which in no small part, includes hating the Tories and the Blairites - trumps everything.

 

[The Firestarter]

I was referring to the general Remain v Leave split, but no matter.

And as nice as the Caf sentiment is I struggle to see what people can learn from it given that it's not reflective of the general population.

Why did you ask then ?

 

[horsechoker]

On ITV’s Peston show last night Philip Hammond, the chancellor, did his best to slam the idea back on the table. Arguing that MPs should get a vote on the proposition, he told the programme:

I’ve said it’s a perfectly credible proposition. Some ideas have been put forward which are not deliverable, they are not negotiable but the confirmatory referendum idea, many people will disagree with it, I’m not sure there is a majority in parliament for it but it’s a perfectly credible proposition and it deserves to be tested in parliament.

But his morning, on the Today programme, Matt Hancock, the health secretary, did his best to sweep the proposal back into oblivion. Asked what he thought about a second referendum, he said:

I don’t see how that helps. That isn’t about delivering Brexit ... I have argued many, many times that it would be divisive, it would not be decisive, it doesn’t help us leave the European Union before the European elections, so I am very, very strongly against it ...

The point here is to respect the result of the referendum, not to challenge the result of the referendum in another referendum.

Then, when it was put to him that Hammond had described the idea as “credible”, Hancock responded:

Well that’s certainly not how I would describe it. But all of use are having to find compromises, and that is hard.

Hancock voted remain btw.

 

[Damien]

I find most internet forums are.

Generally because they tend to have a quite young, well informed, and educated demographic, for the most part, discounting Billy. So it actually lines up pretty well with the voting percentages in that chart above I'd say.

They're certainly not a good benchmark to set for this stuff!

I remember there was an interesting divide with here and RAWK being Remain heavy while the likes of West Ham forums (and Leeds I think - they required signing up to to view the General in most cases and I wasn't going to do that) were mostly pro-Leave.

 

[Maticmaker]

They can't even decide if they should get to vote again ffs

I know, its amazing where we are now, you couldn't make it up could you...absolutely crazy.

How many politicians does it take to vote for voting????

 

[Kentonio]

Hancock voted remain btw.

Like a load of those stupid feckers who understood exactly how destructive Leave would be during the referendum yet have managed to convince themselves over the last 3 years that somehow asking the public if they're sure would somehow be the worst thing that had ever happened to Britain.

It's amazing how much of a fecking echo chamber the Houses of Parliament can be sometimes. As can internet forums of course, but then again we're not the ones passing legislation to make this shitshow actually happen.

 

[Maticmaker]

If not Parliament is going to be left with the decision of no deal or revoke

In reality this has always been the position from the day after the referendum.

Whilst we are still members, the EU has never been in the position to, or have been willing to, give us a 'deal' which we could accept. We have to leave in order to be in a position to negotiate freely, or to revoke A50 and stay, anything else is a nonsense.

MP's should either vote with their conscience, or vote the way their constituents voted. This issue goes beyond party politics, or should do.

 

[Stanley Road]

I assume that it depends on countries but you have no right to work in France until you have a carte de séjour salarié/travailleur or a resident card. EU citizens don't need it and simply have the right to work.

They may have the right to 'Look for work' without needing a permit but anyhow, I have the right to look for work anywhere in the world, whether I find work or not is irrelevant. I can pretty much guarantee that a better candidate outside the eu will be chosen by any company over a lesser qualified eu member. That's just the way things are.

As Weaste once said "Nobody has the right to work"

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@berbatrick, I posted this earlier in the thread, it's the "official" version. 64% of voters who were over 65 voted leave.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

In my personal experience it was little to do with age and all about education. Of the few elder people I know who voted leave were all at David Davis's level of mince and so were the younger and much younger ones.

 

[Steven Seagull]

David Davis has a masters in business.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

That's why he managed to get paid off by some major corporations for his work on Brexit.

 

[Steven Seagull]

So is he thick or not?

 

[That'sHernandez]

So is he thick or not?

I suppose the answer to that depends on your level of cynicism and naivety with regards to his morality.

I'd err on the side of not, unfortunately.

 

[horsechoker]

David Davis has a masters in business.

But not in ethics.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

David Davis has a masters in business.

Wonder whose work he copied in the exams?

 

[Kinsella]

Cutting off the nose to spite the face kind of revenge. Seems adolescence spills into retirement age.

Not really. Those particular people are already in life's departure lounge.

 

[Smores]

David Davis has a masters in business.

So do i, definitely doesn't qualify me to understand Brexit.

He might be capable of learning but the idiot part is talking with a sense of expertise on matters you're not educated in or have little experience on. That covers a lot of the ERG

 

[Kinsella]

Here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum-uk-residents-vote-today.404633/

Prior to the vote:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?
Yes: 482 vote(s) 73.8%
No: 171 vote(s) 26.2%

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum-results-thread-leave-have-won-cameron-resigns.418893/

After the vote:
How did you vote to this: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?
Remain a member of the European Union: 321 vote(s) 75.5%
Leave the European Union: 80 vote(s) 18.8%
Spoiled ballot: 24 vote(s) 5.6%

As you can see from that as well as the 2015 and 2017 GE threads, the caf is generally left leaning and not indicative of what the general public think.

Cheers Damien.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

Fiona Onasanya seems to be very popular again today after casting her vote last night for that majority of 1.

 

[Zlatattack]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Can't believe those Labour MP's who abstained or voted against Becketts plan for a confirmatory vote! I expect nothing less of the Tories though.

 

[Maticmaker]

I was astounded at the 90% turnout among older voters.

Yes, they may have less qualifications, but more sense to actually go and vote for something they want and that they take an interest in.

Its really not surprising these figures show the age/intention to vote and qualification differences; young people generally (any period) take less interest in politics and the older generation, certainly 60+ would not have had the opportunities for HE academic achievement that has been afforded to later generations. Mostly the 16+ FE provision expanded in the sixties (Harold Wilson's the 'white heat of technology') was vocational rather than academic.

And as one of my older friends(yes older than me) says "they are giving away degrees with cornflake packet tops these days". He has a full set of Bachelor, Masters and Doctorate degrees, so I don't argue with him.

 

[Dave89]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-customs-union-a8854056.html#post-1162216507

After only a few hours with Corbyn, the government are already indicating a willingness to listen to the people.

"Ineffective opposition", "weak leader", "closet Europhobe", "denying a public vote". Any other Brexit lies about Corbyn I've missed here?

 

[Massive Spanner]

The pre-referendum thread is actually hilarious to read looking back on it.

@Pexbo

A huge majority will vote to stay in. Nearly 80% I reckon.

 

[Kinsella]

I find most internet forums are.

Generally because they tend to have a quite young, well informed, and educated demographic, for the most part, discounting Billy. So it actually lines up pretty well with the voting percentages in that chart above I'd say.

That has been my experience too, although I'd dispute the well informed claim.

I think another, rather more obvious reason for this left leaning tendency is that those who contribute most frequently to such discussions tend to be people who invest a lot of emotional energy and time into politics, which is in itself much more a left wing trait.

They're certainly not a good benchmark to set for this stuff!

Indeed.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So do i, definitely doesn't qualify me to understand Brexit.

He might be capable of learning but the idiot part is talking with a sense of expertise on matters you're not educated in or have little experience on. That covers a lot of the ERG

Depends how you look at it. You are correct in that they ostensibly displayed extremely shallow knowledge of international trade and the European Union.

But if you look at the case of Davies, he received a large consultancy fee from JCB, a company owned by a prominent Brexiteer and another large consultancy fee from another company (I can't remember which).

If you look at Rees-Mogg, he's a co-founder of Sommerset Capital Management. A company that opened a fund in Ireland in reaction to Brexit and that warned its investors of the economic damage Brexit could cause.

I'd say in the case of the former, he's just a politician of the most cynical type, looking to feather his own nest financially and in terms of his career. In the case of the latter I think Brexit is an ideological position for him but he's economically Brexit-proof in the extreme and maneuvering without any empathy for those that are not. Typical Tories you might say but I don't think they're stupid.

 

[VeevaVee]

The pre-referendum thread is actually hilarious to read looking back on it.

@Pexbo

Didn't account for the thickies, short sightedness, the amount of bitterness, and widespread small town racism/nationalism.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Didn't account for the thickies, short sightedness, the amount of bitterness, and widespread small town racism/nationalism.

of course not, i don't think many people back in 2015 would've expected it to be close, let alone leave to win.

what I do find interesting in that thread is that a lot of people seemed to think the referendum way a good idea in order to "put the EU issue to bed" and whatnot. I guess it's only after the result came out that everyone decided Cameron was an idiot.

 

[Flying high]

When it turned out that was literally no plan at all for if leave won, then that was a pretty good clue as to his competence!

 

[Strachans Cigar]

of course not, i don't think many people back in 2015 would've expected it to be close, let alone leave to win.

what I do find interesting in that thread is that a lot of people seemed to think the referendum way a good idea in order to "put the EU issue to bed" and whatnot. I guess it's only after the result came out that everyone decided Cameron was an idiot.

The referendum WAS a good idea, you could just say it has been poorly executed.

It was pretty apparent Euro-scepticism was on the rise due to UKIP increasing their vote sharply (despite the contrived duopoly of FPTP, so no mean feat) & their squeezing of both the Tory & Labour mainstream vote. So what was the solution? Continue to deny the people a say?

Referendum (or a referendum on major EU treaties/EU constitution etc) should have been held long before the 2016 version imo.

Waving things like the Maastricht Treaty through without allowing the public a say in it? Hardly democratic. No referendums since 1975 despite the EEC/EU shifting sands since then?

 

[afrocentricity]

There’s more Remain support in here than Leave.

I haven’t seen a post put forward a convincing argument for Leave yet.

In over 2 years no less...

 

[Smores]

The government who are now complaining about Coopers bill should realise its only required because there's no trust in them or even commitment that they'd act as per the houses wishes (if they even ask for it).

I'd like the EU to be more forthright in coming up with timetables, they should be agreeing a menu of extensions depending on a referendum, GE, Mays deal, amended deal etc. They shouldn't have to but it would solve so many debates in the house if the conditions were clear.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

There’s more Remain support in here than Leave.

I haven’t seen a post put forward a convincing argument for Leave yet.

I haven't seen one anywhere, never mind on here.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The government who are now complaining about Coopers bill should realise its only required because there's no trust in them or even commitment that they'd act as per the houses wishes (if they even ask for it).

I'd like the EU to be more forthright in coming up with timetables, they should be agreeing a menu of extensions depending on a referendum, GE, Mays deal, amended deal etc. They shouldn't have to but it would solve so many debates in the house if the conditions were clear.

You really think there will be an extension?

 

[711]

In my personal experience it was little to do with age and all about education. Of the few elder people I know who voted leave were all at David Davis's level of mince and so were the younger and much younger ones.

Considering the high proportion of over 65s that left school at 15, and often a school that prepared them for no more than a life of low-skilled work then I would say you're right, there no doubt is a correlation between age and education that would make looking at age alone invalid.

Should that disqualify them from the democratic process? Absolutely not, I would personally consider a threat to democracy as far more damaging to the country than Brexit could ever be. For all those who would like to see others denied a vote just consider it might be you disenfranchised next.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

In over 2 years no less...

Maybe leavers don’t want to come forth, knowing this is a remain dominated forum, so it would be akin to you trying to argue the remain case on the Daily Mail’s comment pages perhaps? A lot of huff & puff but ultimately futile, really.

I tried myself immediately after the referendum, when the majority were incredibly bitter on here & was predictably shouted down (despite people not really arguing against my points, which were more long term than short term) so I gave up.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Considering the high proportion of over 65s that left school at 15, and often a school that prepared them for no more than a life of low-skilled work then I would say you're right, there no doubt is a correlation between age and education that would make looking at age alone invalid.

Should that disqualify them from the democratic process? Absolutely not, I would personally consider a threat to democracy as far more damaging to the country than Brexit could ever be. For all those who would like to see others denied a vote just consider it might be you disenfranchised next.

Quite.
Yes everyone should have a vote, do not dispute that.
What I don't agree with is that something so complex as Brexit is put to the people, where most people don't understand a tiny fraction of it and even people who have a greater knowledge don't know everything.

 

[afrocentricity]

It's not about debuting guess to the is or stupid. It's about having clear positions and arguements, articulating it well to the dumb and intelligent, and actually trying to combat the misinformation that happens (which lets face it, we don't do)... A more informed public is the way forward. Not holding my breath thow...

Maybe leavers don’t want to come forth, knowing this is a remain dominated forum, so it would be akin to you trying to argue the remain case on the Daily Mail’s comment pages perhaps? A lot of huff & puff but ultimately futile, really. I tried myself immediately after the referendum, when the majority were incredibly bitter on here & was predicably shouted down (despite people not really arguing against my points, which were more long term than short term) so I gave up.

So what if you got shouted down? Facts and compelling arguements would put an end to that swiftly.... What were those arguements that you posted? Let's see why you got shouted down.

 

[Coxy]

I am praying beyond belief that May and Corbyn agree how to take a deal forward... but bring it back to the country. i.e. this is the deal the 2 parties will agree on, but over to you guys to confirm you want it.

Then they can pin it on us if the country still votes to leave. Or blame us if we have now changed our mind. Because I just can't see her wanting to be the prime minister / party that drags the countries economy down like that. It would be easier to blame the country. Would you really want to go in the history books for that??

I can dream.