UK exits EU with no deal due to leaky roof delays.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Did it balls
I love this retrospective changing of the reason people voted Brexit to try and justify it. Farage didn't stand in front of a poster showing concerns about the sovereignty of British courts.
People can make whatever excuses they like about the vote being about sovereignty/economic benefits/protest against the elites but when you look at the language being used before the vote and the general fear of immigrants/Muslims etc taking over the country then it's obvious what the real reason was.
Did it balls
I love this retrospective changing of the reason people voted Brexit to try and justify it. Farage didn't stand in front of a poster showing concerns about the sovereignty of British courts.
People can make whatever excuses they like about the vote being about sovereignty/economic benefits/protest against the elites but when you look at the language being used before the vote and the general fear of immigrants/Muslims etc taking over the country then it's obvious what the real reason was.
This attitude is exactly part of why we have ended up in this situation. Instead of acknowledging and understanding people's (legitimate) issues with the EU, they are simply branded as bigoted racists and therefore their stance hardens even further and we end up in a situation where we are facing down the barrel of a no-deal Brexit because those who voted leave have been alienated enough by the losing side that they will argue this is what they wanted to begin with.
I'm not denying that immigration isn't one of the main factors; May's 'red lines' are there for a reason, because it will play well with the ERG and large parts of the leave voters. But there are genuine issues with the way the EU conducts itself and the amount of say it has in certain jurisdictions of member states' sovereignty and to deny that is wrong, even if they are misconceptions.
The Guardian's economics editor made the case against the Customs Union today:
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/04/customs-union-soft-brexit-trade-goods
Did it balls
I love this retrospective changing of the reason people voted Brexit to try and justify it. Farage didn't stand in front of a poster showing concerns about the sovereignty of British courts.
People can make whatever excuses they like about the vote being about sovereignty/economic benefits/protest against the elites but when you look at the language being used before the vote and the general fear of immigrants/Muslims etc taking over the country then it's obvious what the real reason was.
That's a pretty sweeping statement.
The official vote leave campaign doesn't represent everybody who voted to leave. For me, it has always been about sovereignty, not some superior nationalism or xenophobia. In fact, there's even a socialist/left wing case for local rule, the SNP being a good example of that, and traditional eurosceptics included old Labour and Corbyn himself. Is he a racist?
Yes, there are plenty of xenophobic, narrow minded leavers, but to say that there aren't a decent number who simply didn't want to be part of a superstate project simply isn't fair.
Oh when the slimey toads come to making money off the back of the ordinary people they are certainly masters. That’s why it should be revoked, it’s nothing more than a con job from the main protagonists JRM, BoJo, Farage, Banks - all up to their necks in making dirty money out of it all and fcuk the ordinary man if he gets screwed over, loses pension and ends up with a higher cost of living.
What do you mean by the way the EU conducts itself and at which part of member states sovereignty does it have?
HoC not Lords.
I'm fairly certain brexit would still have passed if you took out all those who only voted because of sovereignty. That doesn't work in reverse.
Well for me specifically I mean the lack of transparency in the way the EU works and decides things, though I acknowledge that this also in part down to my ignorance when it comes to the European Parliament.
With regards to sovereignty, I was talking largely about the Courts, where the European Courts take precedence.
Honestly this argument falls apart as soon as you see what things the European courts actually get involved in. Things like human rights and the abuse of power are the only actual situations the European courts get involved. Its like the whole bananas argument. OK so we get rid of the EU great now we have the British government not held accountable to situations where they try to take advantage of the people.
I guess it always depends if you believe the EU is just trying to become a oppressive overlord. They haven't been shown to do that but you could argue they could randomly decide to take that path.
That's where any argument falls apart. You literally have to paint the EU as some kind of star wars empire. Has it ever done anything remotely like an empire? No Could it? Probably not but is there a tiny chance? Sure.
But you have to be logical about these things
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Their version of our fax machine not working for De Gea.
The UK leaves the EU with no deal because they still think it's the 19th century or the 1960s if you're Corbyn.
I'm Irish, I live in NI and I voted to Remain so it's not really my job to advocate for Leave. That said there are a number of things I'd highlight about the vote and people's attitudes towards it. I'll leave the larger more existential issues, that I believe lie at the core of the political changes we are witnessing across much of the so-called West right now, aside for the moment.
So...in respect of the vote itself, more complex truths lie behind the simple narratives that have been used to explain the result. Take immigration as an example. A near constant refrain since the referendum is that places where the population is more ethnically diverse, like London, delivered a vote for Remain, and vice versa for Leave, indicating some underlying prejudice in the latter. However, this doesn't provide the full picture. When you look at the statistics for rate of change; the places with higher rates of immigration corresponded with higher Leave votes which points to the problem resting more with the rate of change as opposed to with immigration itself. The following is just a general point about immigration and not directly related to the Brexit debate, but one thing I've noticed is that many people tend to talk about immigration solely in economic terms, as if everyone is some born again Thatcherite whose only interest is money. A person's contentment in society and in their community relies on more than that.
Anyway...the second thing I'd mention is the 'gammon' jibe in respect of the Leave vote. Whilst this may be true to a large extent, once again it doesn't tell the full story as one third of the votes cast from ethnic minority voters were for Leave. I'll have to reread the various analyses published in the wake of the result but I recall that one of the reasons cited from said voters was their problem with the freedom of movement afforded to Europeans, when they felt such preferential treatment should've been afforded to Commonwealth citizens instead.
Some of the above coalesces with the following anecdotal example. A close family friend of ours is a consultant at a hospital in the midlands. He's from Pakistan and has lived and worked in both England and Ireland for around 20 to 25 years now...and he voted to Leave. Shocked and asking why, he said simply - immigration. He explained that he conducts a weekly clinic where he sees around 17 to 19 patients. He said that of that number two thirds are, on average, immigrants. And of this up to half have to be turned away because there aren't enough interpreters available to facilitate the consultation. My father was speaking to him a week or so ago and Brexit came up in the conversation. He has now changed his mind, but the reasons for the vote remain.
So, what are you supposed to say to that? I'm sure the vast majority of people can appreciate that madness of such an experience if it is replicated on any significant scale. To me it just highlighted that there's more to the whole thing than meets the eye.
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the gammon thing was coined during the 2017 GE not the ref or about it, it was coined when a handful of red faced middled aged men were shouting at Corbyn to nuke some fecker, it's just a coincidence that this demographic is almost entirely leave
There's a very simple answer. The problem was real but the proposed solution was nonsense. The reason for that situation (and housing issues/education issues and all the rest) were because the government didn't use some of the economic boost of immigration to ensure that adequate public services were available to mitigate the downsides of immigration. Instead they enacted their austerity programs, cut everything to the bone, and basically just used the EU as a scapegoat any time people complained about the issues that come with immigration. Instead of making the rational argument that its a positive but requires sensible planning and organization, they just made empty promises of cutting immigration that they never had any serious intention of carrying out.
Basically they wanted the benefits of immigration without having to pay the costs, and now we are where we are because of it.
Everything is on the EU websites, every comments, debates, votes, written and oral questions are available.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/home.html
https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications_en
Every day the commission gives a press conference, here you have the daily news.
Just as well they knew why they were voting and what they were voting for.
No it isn't.
The bigots, racists are the reason these situations are arising all over the world. The guilt tripping of good people into believing they are to blame for simply calling arseholes out for being arseholes is paralysing decent sense or thought and allowing these gobshites a legitimacy they don't deserve.
It's going on 3 years and nobody has managed to put forward a legitimate and coherent "issue with the EU" so how are decent people supposed to be understanding them?
EU uneasy over Ireland’s Brexit no-deal readiness
https://amp.ft.com/content/f1d883ea-56b2-11e9-a3db-1fe89bedc16e
https://amp.ft.com/content/f1d883ea-56b2-11e9-a3db-1fe89bedc16e
Barely anyone who voted leave had any issue with the EU. Ask everyone you know who voted that way why they did and most of them will struggle to answer. They especially would have if you asked them on the day. Some now will have cobbled together arguments that they've heard since, with stuff they wouldn't have given a shit about previously, but now they do because they want to try and add legitimacy to their stupidity.
Point 1
So essentially xenophobia not wanting different people in your community.
Point 2
As someone who's entire family is from the commonwealth from various places. I can tell you that there is a ridiculous level of brainwashing that has occurred. There is alot of romancisim around the British empire from people in the commonwealth so to me that's not really a surprise. But the truth is the British empire was oppressive and one of the worst atrocities in world history. People from the commonwealth often feel entitled and tend to constantly try to convince themselves that they are British.
Point 3
Another case of people blaming the EU for problems stemming from our government. The reason why there is a shortage of staff is the British government who have cut funding for the NHS continually for 10 years.
Finally yes there is more than meets the eye. There has been anti EU propaganda for the last 30 years that has constantly taken responsibility off the British government and wrongly put the blame on the EU. Its much easier for the government to say the reason you don't have a life is because of the EU than it is for them to take responsibility for horrible failures in domestic issues.
That's ridiculous. He was simply rationalising that not everybody associated with leave is the bigoted xenophobe you insist they are. Euroscepticism existed long before the referendum, and there are a hundred fecking reasons for not wanting to be part of what will inevitably become a homogenised federation with centralised power. To many of us, it has nothing to do with bigotry or immigration, stop spouting buzzwords about 'gobshites' and open your mind to other people's opinions FFS. As for your second part about 'no coherent issues with the EU' - have you had your eyes shut for the past two decades? The reasons for it have been articulated over and over. Corbyn said of your own second referendum on the Euro that it's an undemocratic bloc that doesn't take no for an answer. Again, question, is he a racist xenophobe?
It's a shame that most of them go down the road of immigration then, tip toeing as they go. Which is probably why most assume this is the main reason....
Corbyn is whatever he needs to be on any given day to serve his own interests.
British politicians have been blaming their blatant ineptitude on the EU for decades and millions of British people have been lapping it up without so much as a questioning glance at the idiots in charge at home. You can question elements or policies of the EU as a member but quit pretending that is what "Euroscepticism" is about - there has never been any attempt by Eurosceptics to try and reform from within a Union which they entered as a willing member - only to whisper bollocks about the big bad things the EU are doing (99.9% of which have been debunked "over and over" when art... actually articulated is far too strong a word for the grunts and utterings of most Leavers).
Brexit didn't pass because of the couple of hundred educated people who are smart enough not to hate immigrants but stupid enough to think British politicians can do a better job for Britain than the EU can. It passed because of the 17million odd idiots who read the Daily Mail and listened to Mogg, Johnson and Farage.
On a separate note, when did "gobshite" become a buzzword?
This correct, unfortunately many people have convinced themselves of the concept of a bright and shining EU, using it as a 'comfort blanket', rather than appreciating that the reality is that the EU is incapable of changing itself, or realising that it has a history of corruption and incompetence, stretching back years (unaudited accounts etc.) and therefore they are understandably panicking when they think their blankets going to be removed.
I still think it will be better, at least for the foreseeable future for the UK to be part of the EU, but if we intend to remain longer term, then we have to be fully committed, that means committed as much to changing the EU itself, and participating fully, no opt outs, join the euro zone, lead the charge for majority voting and dump the veto. If we are still going to sit on the side-lines and grumble then they would be better off without us!
Which part are you referring to specifically? If it's the general point of 'a person's contentment in society and in their community relying on more than...just economics' then I'm just highlighting a simple de facto reality. I appreciate that for many such things can go beyond simple words on a page but I can assure you there's no agenda on my part.
That's interesting. Is this more in regards to people with 'commonwealth ancestry' in Britain, or to people living in commonwealth countries?
Sorry if you felt I was attacking. Genuinely what you described is essentially xenophobia.
Both.
My grandma is from the Caribbean but has lived here for 30 years and her grandmother was a slave who was raped and forced to conceive a child to work on the fields. Her father was murdered for attempting to buy the former property of his father's slaver.
If you were to ask her what she identities as and her opinion of the British empire. She would tell you she was British and that the empire was a time of great joy and a time to look back fondly where life was.better.
Nonsense, babble.
The EU becoming the dark overlord that the Brexiters suggest it will, is about as likely as it becoming the utopian federacy that you claim the remainers are hoping for.
As with all things, the truth lies in the middle. It's more likely to trundle along in a similar fashion as (it's been pointed out numerous times) it takes a consensus to make changes...
And why do you suggest we have to give away our perks if we wish to remain? That makes no sense.... How about we just take it all seriously and stop trying to swindle our way through it all. I say swindle because it's becoming increasingly obvious that this is what a lot of our government are in this for.
Better to not capitulate and actually try and play a part, using the influence we undoubtedly had. This is the epitome of throwing your toys out of the pram.
Think the Uk is on its way out. Perhaps it should start reforming its own system first. Parliament is a joke.
The commission isn't transparent, and isn't particularly democratic which is very problematic as that is where policy comes from.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...on-on-tobacco-lobbyist-meetings-a6680911.html
You guys need to make your mind up, one day the EU has changed too much since the 70s and now it's incapable of changing.
The commission is democratically nominated by the EU council and the commissioners are vetted by the EU parliament.
It's this lack of self awareness which dumbfounds me the most.
This British sense of exceptionalism which allows them to think that 500 millions people in 27 countries are wrong but that they are right, even after it's become abundantly clear that the people who have been pedalling these lies for decades can't be trusted to tie their own shoelaces, let alone run a country or dictate to a continent how they should run theirs.
How many people and countries of the EU do you think will ever be looking to Britain to "lead the charge" on anything after the debacle of the last few years?
If you think the EU commission is democratic then I have a bridge to sell you
Think you might be right!
Certainly the leaders of our country will need to get their act together, whether we stay in or leave. If its leave, especially with a no deal, it will be a cathartic experience, that might be just what is needed to get things moving politically economically and socially.
One of the few positives to come out of this whole mess is that many more people, even those fed up to the back teeth with it, will be much more aware of how they are governed and by who!
No apologies necessary.
If the issue arises because of the rate of immigration then I don't agree that it's essentially xenophobic.
Christ, that's horrific.
Yeah...identity can be a puzzling and complex thing, can't it? The typical Irish response to the latter point would be the polar opposite of your grandmother's for example.
How do you feel about her sentiments, if you don't mind me asking?
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“Most people” as it turns out, includes all of our MP’s it would seem.
They could be the worst.
You would hope that it's at least a wake-up call to reality.