[Pickle85]

You keep saying this but all available evidence says it’s not true. Onana is a definite upgrade on the De Gea of his last two seasons (probably longer) And that’s including the first half of Onana’s first season when he made some really poor and obvious mistakes. Since then he’s been more solid and consistently playing at a level that is comfortably better than end stage De Gea (albeit not as good as the best keepers in the league)

Onana could definitely be upgraded but the level of his performance is consistently being spun as much worse than it is by a mix of people who were in denial about how poor De Gea was (so are determined to be as harsh on his predecessor as they think others were on their guy) and people who just love to complain about everything.

Absolutely not comfortably better than end stage de Gea (who again I agree needed to go). People trot out stats like save percentages while conveniently ignoring the fact that he faces far more shots in part because oppo players know he's a mistake waiting to happen, so many are speculative. In his last season, de Gea won the golden glove.

 

[erikcred]

Absolutely not comfortably better than end stage de Gea (who again I agree needed to go). People trot out stats like save percentages while conveniently ignoring the fact that he faces far more shots in part because oppo players know he's a mistake waiting to happen, so many are speculative. In his last season, de Gea won the golden glove.

Imagine what a definite upgrade on him would do.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Absolutely not comfortably better than end stage de Gea (who again I agree needed to go). People trot out stats like save percentages while conveniently ignoring the fact that he faces far more shots in part because oppo players know he's a mistake waiting to happen, so many are speculative. In his last season, de Gea won the golden glove.

You're just peddling more untruths now. Which I feel obliged to correct. Then you will portray me as some sort of unhinged pro-Onana zealot. Rinse and repeat. Anyhoo. Once more into the breach...

I said that Onana is an upgrade by all available metrics (metrics for which he is personally responsible anyway). Save percentage is just one of these. He's also doing better when the quality of the chance is being taken into account. He's not just throwing his hat on speculative long rangers, he's facing dozens of shots from inside his box. And doing better at stopping these than De Gea did. He's better at dealing with crosses. He's better at sweeping up outside his box. He is passing the ball more accurately with his feet than De Gea. You name it, he did it better last season that De Gea did in his final season. The stats are all out there for you to check. And I'm almost certain I've already pointed them out to you. So what's with all the misinformation?

 

[Pickle85]

You're just peddling more untruths now. Which I feel obliged to correct. Then you will portray me as some sort of unhinged pro-Onana zealot. Rinse and repeat. Anyhoo. Once more into the breach...

I said that Onana is an upgrade by all available metrics (metrics for which he is personally responsible anyway). Save percentage is just one of these. He's also doing better when the quality of the chance is being taken into account. He's not just throwing his hat on speculative long rangers, he's facing dozens of shots from inside his box. And doing better at stopping these than De Gea did. He's better at dealing with crosses. He's better at sweeping up outside his box. He is passing the ball more accurately with his feet than De Gea. You name it, he did it better last season that De Gea did in his final season. The stats are all out there for you to check. And I'm almost certain I've already pointed them out to you. So what's with all the misinformation?

Where are the untruths I'm peddling? He does save more shots because he has more at him. And yes, while there's no way of proving, I firmly believe that opponents know he's dodgy and are being encouraged to have a pop from unlikely positions as a result.

Also, why are we just looking at last season for Onana? We're already several games into this one and he has under 50% save percentages in the league.

Re last season, in the PL de Gea's long pass accuracy was better, he had more clean sheets (and as a result a higher % of clean sheets), conceded fewer goals and saved a pen. So he's not worse on every available metric is he? Also, your original assertion was that he is 'comfortably better than late stage de Gea' which even your stats don't bear out. He edges it by your metrics but my any measure it's not comfortable.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Where are the untruths I'm peddling? He does save more shots because he has more at him. And yes, while there's no way of proving, I firmly believe that opponents know he's dodgy and are being encouraged to have a pop from unlikely positions as a result.

Also, why are we just looking at last season for Onana? We're already several games into this one and he has under 50% save percentages in the league.

Re last season, in the PL de Gea's long pass accuracy was better, he had more clean sheets (and as a result a higher % of clean sheets), conceded fewer goals and saved a pen. So he's not worse on every available metric is he? Also, your original assertion was that he is 'comfortably better than late stage de Gea' which even your stats don't bear out. He edges it by your metrics but my any measure it's not comfortable.

I’m comparing full season with full season. For obvious reasons. I was also clear that I’m looking at metrics the goalkeeper is personally responsible for. Again, for obvious reasons.

You’re now splitting hairs about “comfortably”? Really?! The point is that he’s better at De Gea, statistically, at everything that matters and is measurable. That’s what I mean. If it was closer then Onana’s stats would be better for some elements and De Gea better at others (and no the fact he has saved a penalty doesn’t change this, especially when we all know damn well what to expect from De Gea with penalties)

Why not just concede that your assertion that Onana is not an upgrade on DDG is wrong? Why are people so fecking stubborn about this?!

 

[Rojofiam]

Where are the untruths I'm peddling? He does save more shots because he has more at him. And yes, while there's no way of proving, I firmly believe that opponents know he's dodgy and are being encouraged to have a pop from unlikely positions as a result.

Also, why are we just looking at last season for Onana? We're already several games into this one and he has under 50% save percentages in the league.

Re last season, in the PL de Gea's long pass accuracy was better, he had more clean sheets (and as a result a higher % of clean sheets), conceded fewer goals and saved a pen. So he's not worse on every available metric is he? Also, your original assertion was that he is 'comfortably better than late stage de Gea' which even your stats don't bear out. He edges it by your metrics but my any measure it's not comfortable.

You can go back to last season and watch every single pass Onana attempted. De Gea is simply incapable of executing 90% of them. Meaningless statistic.

 

[Pickle85]

I’m comparing full season with full season. For obvious reasons. I was also clear that I’m looking at metrics the goalkeeper is personally responsible for. Again, for obvious reasons.

You’re now splitting hairs about “comfortably”? Really?! The point is that he’s better at De Gea, statistically, at everything that matters and is measurable. That’s what I mean. If it was closer then Onana’s stats would be better for some elements and De Gea better at others (and no the fact he has saved a penalty doesn’t change this, especially when we all know damn well what to expect from De Gea with penalties)

Why not just concede that your assertion that Onana is not an upgrade on DDG is wrong? Why are people so fecking stubborn about this?!

With respect, you lecturing anyone on stubbornness is laughable! I won't concede this because I don't think he is, and the point about 'comfortably' is an important one, given how vocal you consistently are about Onana being a significant upgrade. I think he's better at certain things and worse at others...it's a wash in my book (and in many people's). Football isn't played on spreadsheets, so you can bang on about save percentages and xgc or whatever (though I can't find sources for that myself) but watching the two I'm afraid I really don't see Onana as an upgrade. You dismiss the golden glove/goals conceded/clean sheet percentages as meaningless because ddg had a more functional defence and midfield in front of him, but that ignores that ddg was a part of that defense. I think I'm going to leave it there - I can't see any minds being changed (mine or yours) so it's a waste of time. It will be interesting to see how he goes this season. It's not been a great start.

You can go back to last season and watch every single pass Onana attempted. De Gea is simply incapable of executing 90% of them. Meaningless statistic.

Call an actual, verifiable statistic meaningless and in the same post invent one of your own. You could make it up...!

 

[sebsheep]

Also, why are we just looking at last season for Onana? We're already several games into this one and he has under 50% save percentages in the league.

It's almost like using a very small sample size might not give you an accurate representation.
Given the shots he's faced, what would you expect his percentage to be?

For the De Gea golden glove (which is actually an indication of the team's defensive performances over the season, rather than just goalkeeper brilliance) he still conceded 43 league goals from around 140 shots. When the team was bad defensively that season we conceded plenty of goals. It's what happens when you give up good opportunities. That was in a season where we performed decently overall as a team.
The season before 57 from 180. 1 goal less than Onana last season with over 20 fewer shots faced. That was the Ole/Ralf clusterfeck of a season and we still faced less shots.

Onana may not be a great shot stopper, but if your team is allowing so many shots it really doesn't matter too much who is in goal, you will conceded a lot of goals.

 

[mu4c_20le]

You're just peddling more untruths now. Which I feel obliged to correct. Then you will portray me as some sort of unhinged pro-Onana zealot. Rinse and repeat. Anyhoo. Once more into the breach...

I said that Onana is an upgrade by all available metrics (metrics for which he is personally responsible anyway). Save percentage is just one of these. He's also doing better when the quality of the chance is being taken into account. He's not just throwing his hat on speculative long rangers, he's facing dozens of shots from inside his box. And doing better at stopping these than De Gea did. He's better at dealing with crosses. He's better at sweeping up outside his box. He is passing the ball more accurately with his feet than De Gea. You name it, he did it better last season that De Gea did in his final season. The stats are all out there for you to check. And I'm almost certain I've already pointed them out to you. So what's with all the misinformation?

Tell me you only watch Onana highlight videos without telling me you only watch Onana highlight videos

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tell me you only watch Onana highlight videos without telling me you only watch Onana highlight videos

Tell me you don’t understand what metrics means without telling me you don’t understand metrics.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Tell me you don’t understand what metrics means without telling me you don’t understand metrics.

He hasn't done those things for us. I wish he took more risks outside the box, it would help us play a higher line.

 

[Cassidy]

He hasn't done those things for us. I wish he took more risks outside the box, it would help us play a higher line.

He clearly does it more than DDG stop being silly

 

[lex talionis]

If what we get from Onana this season is the Onana of the first half of last season we’re in serious trouble. But if we get the Onana of the second half of the season there’s less cause for concern. His shot stopping is still substandard but if the back line can gel and if Ugarte delivers on his promise the Onana will be under less pressure.

 

[Pickle85]

It's almost like using a very small sample size might not give you an accurate representation.
Given the shots he's faced, what would you expect his percentage to be?

For the De Gea golden glove (which is actually an indication of the team's defensive performances over the season, rather than just goalkeeper brilliance) he still conceded 43 league goals from around 140 shots. When the team was bad defensively that season we conceded plenty of goals. It's what happens when you give up good opportunities. That was in a season where we performed decently overall as a team.
The season before 57 from 180. 1 goal less than Onana last season with over 20 fewer shots faced. That was the Ole/Ralf clusterfeck of a season and we still faced less shots.

Onana may not be a great shot stopper, but if your team is allowing so many shots it really doesn't matter too much who is in goal, you will conceded a lot of goals.

Higher than it is.

It's funny...whenever there's a fact that would seem to paint DDG in as good light, all of a sudden that stat becomes irrelevant.

Onana isn't a good shot stopper, agreed, but even with his deficiencies in that area he's also very unreliable with it. He's just as likely to tip one over the bar as he is to find himself poorly positioned/not get down quick enough/let one through his hands.

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread. I know it may not seem so but I really hope he does prove me wrong. He seems a good lad, a strong personality and well liked, so I hope he comes through it and really makes the jersey his.

 

[sebsheep]

Higher than it is.

It's funny...whenever there's a fact that would seem to paint DDG in as good light, all of a sudden that stat becomes irrelevant.

Onana isn't a good shot stopper, agreed, but even with his deficiencies in that area he's also very unreliable with it. He's just as likely to tip one over the bar as he is to find himself poorly positioned/not get down quick enough/let one through his hands.

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread. I know it may not seem so but I really hope he does prove me wrong. He seems a good lad, a strong personality and well liked, so I hope he comes through it and really makes the jersey his.

So which shots do you think he should've saved?

It's completely unrelated to who that stat might make look good. It's just a stat that can't be attributed solely to a goalkeeper. They could face 0 shots and win that award.

 

[Nas-JR]

Higher than it is.

It's funny...whenever there's a fact that would seem to paint DDG in as good light, all of a sudden that stat becomes irrelevant.

Onana isn't a good shot stopper, agreed, but even with his deficiencies in that area he's also very unreliable with it. He's just as likely to tip one over the bar as he is to find himself poorly positioned/not get down quick enough/let one through his hands.

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread. I know it may not seem so but I really hope he does prove me wrong. He seems a good lad, a strong personality and well liked, so I hope he comes through it and really makes the jersey his.

3 out of the last 5 de gea seasons, he conceded 9 or less. Meaning, if you were to take the median (9) he's on par with Onana last year. Maybe best to give it more than one season to conclude he's a shit goalkeeper?

Your extra point about being 'also being unreliable with it', isn't that the definition of not being a good shot stopper? I mean every prem keeper is capable of world class saves (even Onana, believe it or not, plenty of those last year), but it's their inability to do it consistently that makes the keeper considered a bad shotstopper. I don't personally expect him to be a brilliant shot stopper but when he does have those games then it's a bonus.

What Onana must do is completely cut out the howlers from last year while showing his passing abilities a lot more consistently, that's what he was signed for. He's capable of doing it, and even at his worst his passing is better than de head ever was, but he needs to do it every game, otherwise it's not good enough.

 

[Pickle85]

Higher than it is.

It's funny...whenever there's a fact that would seem to paint DDG in as good light, all of a sudden that stat becomes irrelevant.

Onana isn't a good shot stopper, agreed, but even with his deficiencies in that area he's also very unreliable with it. He's just as likely to tip one over the bar as he is to find himself poorly positioned/not get down quick enough/let one through his hands.

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread. I know it may not seem so but I really hope he does prove me wrong. He seems a good lad, a strong personality and well liked, so I hope he comes through it and really makes the jersey his.

Like I said, I'm out. We'll know more by the end of the season.

 

[lex talionis]

I assume that's your favourite because he did actually do that?

It was lame attempt at satire on my part. No keeper creates chances on goal, apart from a very long ball that hits the forward in stride. Onana did create a brillant chance for Garnacho early last season against Spurs, a chance one would almost argue fell into the "should have scored" category. But apart from that Onana created no chances on goal last season or so far this season.

More importantly, one would never expect their keeper to create chances. What you expect of a "modern keeper" consists of many things but it doesn't consist of chance creation. Whatever the argument for a "modern keeper" may be, you can never sacrifice shot stopping in exchange for it. If you botch a savable shot you've put your side in a hole and even if you fizz brilliant passes all day long to your fullbacks it's ordinarily a long chain of events that have to come together to negate the advantage you just gave your opponent by gifting them the goal you just gifted them.

 

[sebsheep]

It was lame attempt at satire on my part. No keeper creates chances on goal, apart from a very long ball that hits the forward in stride. Onana did create a brillant chance for Garnacho early last season against Spurs, a chance one would almost argue fell into the "should have scored" category. But apart from that Onana created no chances on goal last season or so far this season.

More importantly, one would never expect their keeper to create chances. What you expect of a "modern keeper" consists of many things but it doesn't consist of chance creation. Whatever the argument for a "modern keeper" may be, you can never sacrifice shot stopping in exchange for it. If you botch a savable shot you've put your side in a hole and even if you fizz brilliant passes all day long to your fullbacks it's ordinarily a long chain of events that have to come together to negate the advantage you just gave your opponent by gifting them the goal you just gifted them.

Top of my head says he created at least two more opportunities, both for Dalot.

Are you just arguing that modern goalkeepers aren't worth it at all at this point? Because even the best ones from the last decade have made basic errors with saving and passing that have led to goals.
The reason for having a goalkeeper who is good with the ball is to help you control the game better. If you do this properly then you limit the chances for the other team, meaning you are less reliant on your keeper making saves. Allison is generally facing not too many more than 100 shots or less, Raya faced less than 100 last season and I don't think Ederson has ever faced more than 100 since he's been at City. We're asking Onana to be a much better and more consistent shot stopper than the other keepers playing the same role.

Yes you'd want less errors from him, and I think it's perfectly fair to think we should upgrade on him. The issue is that unless you fix the underlying problem of conceding the number and quality of chances we have been doing then we'll keep conceding plenty of goals.

 

[lex talionis]

Top of my head says he created at least two more opportunities, both for Dalot.

Are you just arguing that modern goalkeepers aren't worth it at all at this point? Because even the best ones from the last decade have made basic errors with saving and passing that have led to goals.
The reason for having a goalkeeper who is good with the ball is to help you control the game better. If you do this properly then you limit the chances for the other team, meaning you are less reliant on your keeper making saves. Allison is generally facing not too many more than 100 shots or less, Raya faced less than 100 last season and I don't think Ederson has ever faced more than 100 since he's been at City. We're asking Onana to be a much better and more consistent shot stopper than the other keepers playing the same role.

Yes you'd want less errors from him, and I think it's perfectly fair to think we should upgrade on him. The issue is that unless you fix the underlying problem of conceding the number and quality of chances we have been doing then we'll keep conceding plenty of goals.

Two chances for Dalot. Thanks!

A modern keeping being "[not] worth it at all" and "creator of chances" are two very different things. All things being equal, of course you prioritize a keeper who is highly proficient on the ball over a keeper who is poor on the ball. But that's not what I'm arguing and never have.

What I'm arguing is that you cannot sacrifice shot stopping ability when shopping for a modern keeper. The importance of shot stopping for a keeper ifor a side to be successful is hard to overstate. I'm not sure who would be regarded as the greatest shot stopper of all time, but let's say it's Lev Yashin. And just for fun let's say he was poor with the ball at his feet. And given these hypotheticals, that Yashin is a greater shot stopper than Onana and Onana is more brilliant with the ball at his feet than Yashin ever was -- you still take Yashin every single time over Onana, despite Onana being a modern keeper and Yashin being an old school keeper.

It's not even that clear that Onana is all that brilliant with the ball at his feet, but even if we assume he is brilliant with the ball at his feet we sacrificed way too much in terms of the most important requirement of a keeper -- shot stopping -- in the service of bringing in a modern keeper who would facilitate ball control that would ultimately lead to more frequent chance creation and, presumably, more goals scored, and from that, matches won and trophies hauled in.

When shots fizz past Onana that most of us would agree would be saved by decent keepers like Raya and even Pickford, who are also somewhat well regarded as modern keepers, we've done a disservice to the strategic objectives of the club (wins, trophies and more revenue to reinvest into the squad) by bringing in a keeper who is superior Raya and Pickford in terms of his ability on the ball (a dubious assertion, but let's stipulate that here), but clearly inferior in terms of shot stopping.

And I hope there is no debate here that Onana is substantially inferior in every conceivable aspect of play to Allison and Ederson.

When you go down 1-0 from a chance on goal you expect your keeper top save, the complexion of the game changes. You have to stretch for the equalizer or match winner and the opponent can hit us on the counter and we see this regularly...conceding goals late in matches because we were stretched and our keeper, who is particularly poor in 1v1 situations, is exposed.

Next time we look for a keeper we need to prioritize shot stopping ability.

 

[sebsheep]

Two chances for Dalot. Thanks!

A modern keeping being "[not] worth it at all" and "creator of chances" are two very different things. All things being equal, of course you prioritize a keeper who is highly proficient on the ball over a keeper who is poor on the ball. But that's not what I'm arguing and never have.

What I'm arguing is that you cannot sacrifice shot stopping ability when shopping for a modern keeper. The importance of shot stopping for a keeper ifor a side to be successful is hard to overstate. I'm not sure who would be regarded as the greatest shot stopper of all time, but let's say it's Lev Yashin. And just for fun let's say he was poor with the ball at his feet. And given these hypotheticals, that Yashin is a greater shot stopper than Onana and Onana is more brilliant with the ball at his feet than Yashin ever was -- you still take Yashin every single time over Onana, despite Onana being a modern keeper and Yashin being an old school keeper.

It's not even that clear that Onana is all that brilliant with the ball at his feet, but even if we assume he is brilliant with the ball at his feet we sacrificed way too much in terms of the most important requirement of a keeper -- shot stopping -- in the service of bringing in a modern keeper who would facilitate ball control that would ultimately lead to more frequent chance creation and, presumably, more goals scored, and from that, matches won and trophies hauled in.

When shots fizz past Onana that most of us would agree would be saved by decent keepers like Raya and even Pickford, who are also somewhat well regarded as modern keepers, we've done a disservice to the strategic objectives of the club (wins, trophies and more revenue to reinvest into the squad) by bringing in a keeper who is superior Raya and Pickford in terms of his ability on the ball (a dubious assertion, but let's stipulate that here), but clearly inferior in terms of shot stopping.

And I hope there is no debate here that Onana is substantially inferior in every conceivable aspect of play to Allison and Ederson.

When you go down 1-0 from a chance on goal you expect your keeper top save, the complexion of the game changes. You have to stretch for the equalizer or match winner and the opponent can hit us on the counter and we see this regularly...conceding goals late in matches because we were stretched and our keeper, who is particularly poor in 1v1 situations, is exposed.

Next time we look for a keeper we need to prioritize shot stopping ability.

It's not as straightforward as that. The less shots you face, the less reliant on your goalkeeper saving shots you become. Yashin's saving ability is more important facing 200+ shots than it is facing less than 100.
If you want to focus on playing out from the back to help you control the game and working on regaining the ball quickly to limit the opposition attacks then the balance of skills your keeper needs changes. Nobody is saying you can just ignore saving ability when selecting a goalkeeper btw.

I would agree that Raya and Pickford are better shot stoppers, both capable of the more spectacular. The problem is they also both concede goals from shots that you would expect Raya and Pickford to save. Pickford more so, but he did face double to amount of shots.
Put them in this United side and you'd still get a thread like this, maybe worse for Pickford because he manages to pass straight to the opposition attackers a bit more than Onana (or get tackled, like he did against spurs this season).

 

[lex talionis]

It's not as straightforward as that. The less shots you face, the less reliant on your goalkeeper saving shots you become. Yashin's saving ability is more important facing 200+ shots than it is facing less than 100.
If you want to focus on playing out from the back to help you control the game and working on regaining the ball quickly to limit the opposition attacks then the balance of skills your keeper needs changes. Nobody is saying you can just ignore saving ability when selecting a goalkeeper btw.

I would agree that Raya and Pickford are better shot stoppers, both capable of the more spectacular. The problem is they also both concede goals from shots that you would expect Raya and Pickford to save. Pickford more so, but he did face double to amount of shots.
Put them in this United side and you'd still get a thread like this, maybe worse for Pickford because he manages to pass straight to the opposition attackers a bit more than Onana (or get tackled, like he did against spurs this season).

But ignoring shot stopping ability is exactly what we did when we brought in Onana, who does help us successfully play out of the back. That was not a wise tradeoff.

Moreover, I’m not aware of any analysis that indicates that a keeper with superior ball playing skills leads to more chances on goal, let alone more goals scored.

We all agree that you want a keeper who has both strong hands and strong feet, if I can put it that way, but strong hands will always result in a better outcome for the club than strong feet. When a soft goal is conceded by weak hands, it takes a lot more to go right for the club that a keeper making good passes to his fullbacks and the occasional perfectly fizzed long ball.

The complaint with Onana isn’t limited to his weak shot stopping. His ability on the ball is also questionable. Not that he’s poor on the ball, but his effectiveness on the ball is limited by his deliberate decision to hold the ball and allow the opposition to organize their defense and his long passing is borderline poor, actually to inferior to De Gea’s long passing. Where Onana has the clear — call it vast — edge on De Gea is his ability to control a ball passed back to him and release it quickly. But when given the choice between slowing down play or speeding up play, Onana always slows down play. That may be a function of instructions given to him by ETH, but it is a self-defeating tactic that undermines our strategy of overloading opposing defenders and creating chances on goal.

 

[sebsheep]

But ignoring shot stopping ability is exactly what we did when we brought in Onana, who does help us successfully play out of the back. That was not a wise tradeoff.

Moreover, I’m not aware of any analysis that indicates that a keeper with superior ball playing skills leads to more chances on goal, let alone more goals scored.

We all agree that you want a keeper who has both strong hands and strong feet, if I can put it that way, but strong hands will always result in a better outcome for the club than strong feet. When a soft goal is conceded by weak hands, it takes a lot more to go right for the club that a keeper making good passes to his fullbacks and the occasional perfectly fizzed long ball.

The complaint with Onana isn’t limited to his weak shot stopping. His ability on the ball is also questionable. Not that he’s poor on the ball, but his effectiveness on the ball is limited by his deliberate decision to hold the ball and allow the opposition to organize their defense and his long passing is borderline poor, actually to inferior to De Gea’s long passing. Where Onana has the clear — call it vast — edge on De Gea is his ability to control a ball passed back to him and release it quickly. But when given the choice between slowing down play or speeding up play, Onana always slows down play. That may be a function of instructions given to him by ETH, but it is a self-defeating tactic that undermines our strategy of overloading opposing defenders and creating chances on goal.

I doubt we have ignored it. He's still good at stopping shots, he's just not great. The trade off is good if you play the correct system, we don't currently do that. A lot of your issues with Onana seem to come down to that.

There's probably stuff out there somewhere for the bit in bold, not going to look it up myself as it's not a point I've argued here.

Again, the other keepers you mentioned conceded exactly the same type of goals that Onana does. Generally a bit less that him, but they're facing less shots.

De Gea's long passing is not better than Onana's. The percentage stat is going to mix in long kicks with actual passes. Watch the actual passing and it's very clear.

 

[lex talionis]

I doubt we have ignored it. He's still good at stopping shots, he's just not great. The trade off is good if you play the correct system, we don't currently do that. A lot of your issues with Onana seem to come down to that.

There's probably stuff out there somewhere for the bit in bold, not going to look it up myself as it's not a point I've argued here.

Again, the other keepers you mentioned conceded exactly the same type of goals that Onana does. Generally a bit less that him, but they're facing less shots.

De Gea's long passing is not better than Onana's. The percentage stat is going to mix in long kicks with actual passes. Watch the actual passing and it's very clear.

Some would say poor, you say good, but there is no doubt universal consensus that Onana is not great at stopping shots. I may have the number wrong, but I think we spent 47m on Onana and if that number is correct we should have gotten a great shot stopper. Thinking about the 20 starting keepers in the prem Onana is undoubtedly in the lower half in terms of overall ability, but then again the prem is the top football league on the planet. For the amount of money we spent on Onana, we should have been able to bring in a keeper close to Ederson than Pickford.

But here we are and what's done is done. We can only hope that Onana improves as a shot stopper -- which should never be traded off as a quality in a keeper -- and that he distributes the ball more quickly so that we start our turn of possession before the opposition has had a chance to organize itself, and that his long passes become more accurate. The frequency of Onana's long passes missing their mark is shocking and although that in itself is not cause for alarm it's the combination of his other aspects of play -- shot stopping and short passing -- that have caused many to be concerned that we've taken a step backward from De Gea.

 

[Pickle85]

I doubt we have ignored it. He's still good at stopping shots, he's just not great. The trade off is good if you play the correct system, we don't currently do that. A lot of your issues with Onana seem to come down to that.

There's probably stuff out there somewhere for the bit in bold, not going to look it up myself as it's not a point I've argued here.

Again, the other keepers you mentioned conceded exactly the same type of goals that Onana does. Generally a bit less that him, but they're facing less shots.

De Gea's long passing is not better than Onana's. The percentage stat is going to mix in long kicks with actual passes. Watch the actual passing and it's very clear.

So stats are a great source of truth when they tell the story you want them to (eg save percentage etc) but when they don't, it's suddenly all about the eye test?!

 

[sebsheep]

Some would say poor, you say good, but there is no doubt universal consensus that Onana is not great at stopping shots. I may have the number wrong, but I think we spent 47m on Onana and if that number is correct we should have gotten a great shot stopper. Thinking about the 20 starting keepers in the prem Onana is undoubtedly in the lower half in terms of overall ability, but then again the prem is the top football league on the planet. For the amount of money we spent on Onana, we should have been able to bring in a keeper close to Ederson than Pickford.

But here we are and what's done is done. We can only hope that Onana improves as a shot stopper -- which should never be traded off as a quality in a keeper -- and that he distributes the ball more quickly so that we start our turn of possession before the opposition has had a chance to organize itself, and that his long passes become more accurate. The frequency of Onana's long passes missing their mark is shocking and although that in itself is not cause for alarm it's the combination of his other aspects of play -- shot stopping and short passing -- that have caused many to be concerned that we've taken a step backward from De Gea.

Again, that's going to be a tactical thing.

If you looked into the other goalkeepers in the league as much as Onana I don't think you'd be so sure he's in the bottom half.

 

[sebsheep]

So stats are a great source of truth when they tell the story you want them to (eg save percentage etc) but when they don't, it's suddenly all about the eye test?!

That's one hell of a delayed echo.

You are more than welcome to question anyone's usage of a particular statistic, and I have never implied that you should solely rely on stats. The save percentage was used by myself in response to people saying he doesn't save anything. If I had used it to suggest he was one of the best shot stoppers in the league based on having one of the best save percentages you might have a point.

 

[Oranges038]

I like him. Hoping for a strong performance today, seems like he played well for Cameroon over the internationals.

 

[GoodTimes]

I like him. Hoping for a strong performance today, seems like he played well for Cameroon over the internationals.

Ah yes, those international juggernauts Zimbabwe and Namibia.

We could be doing so much better than this entertainer-cum-keeper

 

[despairingfool]

He's a useless shot stopper anywhere close to the box. He looks like a superman impersonator diving in slow motion. I can't take him seriously.

 

[lex talionis]

Again, that's going to be a tactical thing.

If you looked into the other goalkeepers in the league as much as Onana I don't think you'd be so sure he's in the bottom half.

Let’s hope for an improved performance.

As to whether he’s in the top half or bottom half of keepers in the league, it’s not that hard to identify 10 other keepers in the league nearly all of us here would swap in for Onana without any hesitation.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Decent.

 

[Yorkeontop]

Man of the match for that penalty save.

 

[Oranges038]

Solid performance, saved the day with that penalty save.

 

[JeffFromHK]

Great penalty save and another good save! Good to have his confidence back

 

[Stadjer]

HIs penalty save was the most important moment in the game. Good game from Onana.

 

[jem]

Very good today.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Little to do other than the penalty save but that was the most pivotal moment. Deserves all the praise today.

 

[Gregawa]

Good save for the penalty, but he still palmed it directly back into the box making that save from Dibling.

 

[pcaming]

If that pen goes in, I think we lose this. Also a couple important saves on top of that.