[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Having a little imaginary conversation with yourself are you mate?

Did you not say this @stevoc?

Ibra is far too wasteful, with the chances he's had this year he should be on 30+ goals already.

Did you not then bang on about how a more clinical striker is needed to challenge? So who is this striker who would be on 30+ goals by now if he had been playing for United this season?

 

[stevoc]

Did you not say this @stevoc?

Ibra is far too wasteful, with the chances he's had this year he should be on 30+ goals already.

No, see this is where you need to read peoples posts more carefully mate before putting words in their mouth. I said 30 goals and i obviously meant in all competitions, not 30 league goals as you claimed i said.

Did you not then bang on about how a more clinical striker is needed to challenge? So who is this striker who would be on 30+ goals by now if he has been playing for United this season?

Someone who averages more than one goal every 6+ shots i'd imagine.

 

[Footyislife]

To be fair Dobbs asked you to quote people who said Ibra is the sole reason we are not higher up the league this season. I said we will not challenge for the league next year with him as our first choice striker.

Plus the second part of my post you bolded is a fact, he is statistically the most wasteful top striker in the Premier League (stats from last week).

Sanchez 85 shots, 15 goals
Lukaku 62 shots, 15 goals
Costa 68 shots, 15 goals
Ibrahimovic 95 shots, 15 goals
Kane 57 shots, 14 goals
Defoe 62 shots, 14 goals

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...e-shots-2016-17-January-so-far-sportgalleries

Ibra has been good, but not great. Him and Pogba waste so many chances a game, despite creating so many too. It's hard to criticize, but at the same time that's the difference between us sitting higher up in the table and where we are. If we relied less on those players, then maybe his conversion rate wouldn't be a big deal, but if those two take up most of our opportunities (43%) and have bad conversation rates, then it is fair to criticize IMHO. Herrera is also a culprit in my opinion has taken 30 shots 0 goals. Granted they are long shots, still needs to be doing better with those chances. Lingard has had 20 shots without any goals also sad.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No, see this is where you need to read peoples posts more carefully mate before putting words in their mouth. I said 30 goals and i obviously meant in all competitions, not 30 league goals as you claimed i said.

Sounds fair, Ibra isn't doing well enough for us with just 20 goals & 7 assists, he should be on over 30+ goals by mid-Feb

feck me he's held to high standard. Not even Ronaldo or Suarez are close to that figure, only Messi is from any top league.

Someone who averages more than one goal every 6+ shots i'd imagine.

You're way to hung up on that stat @stevoc, Ronaldo's is shite in those statistics and it'd be beyond daft to claim anyone who scores more than one goal every 6+ shots would be outscoring him if they played for Real in his place. It'd also be a joke to claim Arsenal would be better off with Kane over Sanchez for the same reason.

Much much more credit must go to these players for getting themselves into more shooting opportunities than others. But you make out like it's obvious that Kane or Lukaku would be on 30+ goals if they were playing for United*, as though we're miles better attacking wise than Spurs & it's just a given cause well "look how many shots Zlatan takes to score".

Bizarre.

*and let's be honest, would they feck, never in eithers career have they looked remotely capable of those kind of crazy Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez numbers.

Even Suarez himself is currently "only" on 25 goals despite playing in a miles better side that win 5-0+ on the reg. Not a single other player from a top league aside from Messi is over 30, next is Suarez at 25, then we're down to the Lewandowski, Aubameyang & Zlatan's of the World around 20.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

There's no problem with people critisizing, it's just that some go way over the top when it isn't called for. Not strange really since some of the same people are Martial fanboys who feel Zlatan is the reason for taking away game time from him, stealing his shirt number and so on.

I don't think that is true at all, plus it has nothing to do with Martial or "fanboys". But it has been subsequently covered by Dobbs so no need to further drag the thread offtopic. I don't understand why people can't just ignore the criticism if they feel it is to harsh, or debate accordingly if they think it so. Rather than ridicule people for sharing how they feel as if by osmosis that ridicule will change their opinion.

 

[Janson]

The problem is that many players grow with responsibility. Younger players will grow if they can express themselves on and outside the pitch. My main issue with Zlatan is he thinks he is the lion and if he relaxes and give the cats to much room they will hurt his ego. And he know he need his confident ego to perform. He's probably right. But he is not a leader in that sense. It still makes younger, inferior, players grow much less. Especially if they are offensive players with big egos. It's not black or white though. We have players like Cassano, Boateng, Veratti where they got better around Zlatan. But that is as long as he is number one without question. Just because players don't say things in interviews it doesn't mean its not true. I think a lot of players have had issues with Zlatan but they keep quiet. That's what I mean. You probably won't agree. But that's my opinion.

It has caused problems everywhere where he hasn't been the clear number one. In Ajax, in Barcelona, in the national team at the beginning. You can see it in that documentary from his time in Malmö how the older players is clearly having problem with Zlatan. Maybe not in Juventus as much. But it is, as you say, important to have a coach that know how to handle those issues and I think Capello was good in that sense. And also its the only club where Zlatan could accept not being the top dog in the beginning. It think it will cause problems at United if Zlatan isnt the clear number one. If Martial and Pogba feel they can start taking more space and room. Or maybe he can accept that and back down. But I don't think so. That is if he doesn't leave as soon as he starts declining. If he is just a good player, and not number one, he shouldn't stay IMO.

I think you're reading way to much in to the things he says sometimes. I don't think it's up to Zlatan to restrict what someone does on the field, he just expresses his frustration when someone makes a mistake. Again, if there was a problem with that, the manager would surely say something. But I did actually say after the Watford game that it's unacceptable and doesn't look good when he blames players ingame for not passing to him, in response to someone stating he blamed Martial for not passing, which turned out not to be true though.

I don't know what the players actually feel inside, and he has mostly played with experienced players since Juventus so maybe that's why it was never an issue. But I just can't see it myself. And you don't have to be responsible for developing young players to be a leader.

Regarding Ajax Malmo and Sweden, those where his early years and he was a cocky kid back then. He has matured a lot since then but he still has that arrogance.

In regard to United, I don't think there will be any issues. Pogba and Zlatan work well together. Martial though has his own issues to sort out. Part of the basis for Martial's exclusion could be related to Zlatan. It could be that they don't synergize well together. This is just speculation on my part but they certainly don't seem to have a great understanding on the pitch. But the reality is, we have to accomodate Ibra since he's our best player. Martial wants ball to feet and Zlatan needs clever movement and runners. Anyway, let's just hope it all works out and we find an adequate replacement for him.

 

[Escobar]

Why take him off when he has a chance to bag more goals though? Why are people so desperate for him to be subbed?

Well if he's the worst player on the pitch, why not sub him off? He's been up and down imo so far. In general good, but not great. Too often he misses easy chances and it cost us as well.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Well if he's the worst player on the pitch, why not sub him off? He's been up and down imo so far. In general good, but not great. Too often he misses easy chances and it cost us as well.

Because @Escobar Mourinho has two thoughts on that, and most importantly for Mourinho, bringing off Zlatan would almost certainly mean bringing on Fellaini.

"Too often he misses easy chances and it cost us as well", I keep hearing this and yes, it cost us for a few games back in October/November when we had a poor run, Zlatan missed some great chances (as did lots of others) and no-one else stepped up to the plate.

Since that run, how the feck has Zlatan "cost us" anything? It's quite the opposite, he's won us shit loads of points. Does he miss a chance every now and then still, yes of course, but both Sanchez and Lukaku missed absolute sitters themselves this weekend, it's hardly a suprise, strikers miss chances. Please, list a bunch of games between August-September and December->date in which Zlatan has "cost us"*

It appears no matter how many goals Zlatan scores between now and the end of the season and how many points he wins us, for some people that spell in October/November is the all important one that has ruined everything else.

*can anyone answer me this? Because the games we have dropped points in since that poor spell we had in Oct-Nov were:

• Liverpool (Zlatan rescued a point)

• Hull (Pogba from Zlatan's pass, Rashford and Mata cost us with poor misses)

• Stoke (Mata's open goal from Zlatan's pass really cost us, think Miki had a great chance too right? and also, Zlatan opted to pass on a couple of occasions when he should have shot, hardly "great" chances for him though like the others had).

 

[RedMaestro]

Ibra has been good, but not great. Him and Pogba waste so many chances a game, despite creating so many too. It's hard to criticize, but at the same time that's the difference between us sitting higher up in the table and where we are. If we relied less on those players, then maybe his conversion rate wouldn't be a big deal, but if those two take up most of our opportunities (43%) and have bad conversation rates, then it is fair to criticize IMHO. Herrera is also a culprit in my opinion has taken 30 shots 0 goals. Granted they are long shots, still needs to be doing better with those chances. Lingard has had 20 shots without any goals also sad.

I believe Ibra's conversions rate is a bit s "ruined" especially because of his drought period during those 6 games where he had 35 shots, 12 of them were against Burnley when Heaton was a human wall. He also drops deep many times which sometimes makes him take the shots from a bit "worse" positions than normal, add to this that he sometimes takes shots that other won't (unusual angles or using "martial arts"). In the end he's still creating these chances, just like Pogba. Some say that others would have done a better job (scoring) than them, but they seem to forget that those "others" probably wouldn't have created the chances in the first place, so how can they take the shots?

Which is better - a player creating loads of chances and sometimes missing even easy ones or a player basically never creating anything but is a more accurate scorer? I prefer the ones that create a lot since I think the overall "points" would be higher for the "wasteful" ones. And it's unfair to also "blaim" i.e. Ibra for his teammates not being able to help by scoring. Ibra has also had a lot of passes that would have made his assist stats very nice, but since his teammates couldn't score, it doesn't show.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

@RedMaestro, agreed. No doubt @acnumber9 can back us up here but I remember Andrew Cole coming in for similar critique. One thing you could guarantee with Andrew Cole is that he would find himself in good positions more than any other striker I could remember, you'd switch him our for a so called "more clinical" striker in Solskjaer and suddenly no chances would arise.

You cannot discount the skill of getting chance situations, Cole was an expert at it but is also made him look "less clinical" despite him more than often outscoring his rivals.

 

[RedMaestro]

I'm not sure if it's right but I saw that Ronaldo this season so far in La Liga has 14 goals - 88 shots...

 

[Bwuk]

It takes talent to get into position to get shots off.

In general, the more shots you take, the more goals you will score. If it was that easy to get a shot off we'd be seeing teams get ridiculous amounts of them per game - we don't.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I'm not sure if it's right but I saw that Ronaldo this season so far in La Liga has 14 goals - 88 shots...

I'm sure it's right, he always takes an insane amount of shots. Doesn't mean Lukaku or Kane are better than him though.

Last season Ronaldo took 190 shots to get his 35 league goals, and they no doubt included a load of pens.

 

[RedMaestro]

I'm sure it's right, he always takes an insane amount of shots. Doesn't mean Lukaku or Kane are better than him though.

Exactly!

 

[Santoryo]

Even though he wasteful with his scoring chances he was still a net positive with his link up play including the flick on assist for Martial. Also put Mkhi through on goal late in the 2nd half.

I do wish he was a bit more clinical and didn't try and take the piss out of defenders when a simpler, more effective option is available, but he's a much bigger part of the solutions to our issues this year than some major detractor from our overall play. Of our attackers Mkhi, Martial, Rooney and Rashford have all been far more wasteful than him in their finishing.

No way has anyone of our players been more wasteful than Zlatan this season, not even close.

Miki comes second though.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Do you think people "defend" Ibra for the sake of it? Don't you think that some do this because a few in here claim that he's useless and shouldn't even play when having an off day - this despite him having a pretty good start his first season (20 goals, 7 assists) and no player being close to this the last couple of years.

The reason he's never gets subbed off, in my opinion, is the fact that he's good at holding the ball (forcing the opponents no to relax) and him taking care of free kicks and corners with headers when the opponents get these.

So yes, you can and should be critical when he deserves it but it should be reasonable...

I'm not sure anyone here has claimed he is useless or shit, what I've found most people saying is that to compete for top honours we need someone who offers more than what he's offering at the moment. I've seen someone quote my post as one one of the posts claiming Ibra is the reason we're 6th.The exaggerations on this thread mostly come from his defenders misinterpreting peoples posts to make their point.
As for him not being subbed off, I've not said anything about that but I understand your(and Mourinho's) standpoint especially in defending corners and stuff. But in the event of when we're chasing a game( e.g Hull,West Ham) and he's having the kind of game he had this weekend, I feel subbing him will be a good decision

 

[fellaini's barber]

The red... not remotely close to Zlatan stats though, not remotely!

It's really not valid at all. Costa was pretty shite in these past few games, as he was for most of last season. Aguero is having a tough time lately, Kane has been wank in every big game this season pretty much, Lukaku really should have won 3 more points for Everton this weekend but fluffed an easy chance. It's pure madness to consider Zlatan not good enough at this point, we need to improve certain things before a title challenge but I am baffled as to how anyone can think the striker with 20 goals and 7 assists is the problem.

A lot of Ibra's criticism here has been met with 'his goals are the reason we still in competition for 4th place'. Well same rule applies to Costa, as shit as you think Costa has been, he is a very big reason why Chelsea are 10 points ahead of everybody else on the table. Its not madness to think Ibra is not good enough, its peoples opinion bases on what they've seen. I'm fully confident if he's our main striker next season we probably won't be challenging for the title. Nobody has said he's the only problem,of course we need to improve other areas but this is the Zlatan thread. I like the guy and I really want him here next season, but not as our main striker playing 90 minutes every game, he's 36, he's not getting better, the things we are complaining about like the sloppinees sometimes, slowness, refusing to head the ball and kungfu-ing instead,holding onto the ball unneccessarily long sometimes, the lazy offsides are things I believe will only get worse next season,he'll be 37 FFS.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

A lot of Ibra's criticism here has been met with 'his goals are the reason we still in competition for 4th place'. Well same rule applies to Costa, as shit as you think Costa has been, he is a very big reason why Chelsea are 10 points ahead of everybody else on the table.

I don't think Costa has been shit, quite the opposite until the past few games.

And thanks for proving my point, Costa and Zlatan have similar output as lone strikers, the difference with Chelsea and United's league positions is the goals from Hazard & Pedro . When Costa has an off game, one of these steps up which hasn't been the case for United.

Fortunately it now seems Miki, Martial & Mata have fixed that problem but it's just a little too late. The problem was that no-one else stepped up during Oct-Nov.

 

[fellaini's barber]

He one of the top scorers in the league this season, whilst being one of our best creators too. I think its quite clear the issue lies elsewhere within the squad/team as to why we're not challenging for the title this season.

All the striker at the other clubs also have off days. Costa included but Chelsea are top because other players also contribute form within the squad.

Are you really sure about this? Because I could think of many games where Zlatan missed key chances that could have won us games. Of course we have problems in other parts of the pitch but you can't just absolve Ibra like that, especially as other have helped us out when he's having these off days like this weekend. Could you mention players who you feel this 'issue' lies with? Micki? Martial? Lingard? I'd like to know.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Are you really sure about this? Because I could think of many games where Zlatan missed key chances that could have won us games. Of course we have problems in other parts of the pitch but you can't just absolve Ibra like that, especially as other have helped us out when he's having these off days like this weekend. Could you mention players who you feel this 'issue' lies with? Micki? Martial? Lingard? I'd like to know.

Because @Escobar Mourinho has two thoughts on that, and most importantly for Mourinho, bringing off Zlatan would almost certainly mean bringing on Fellaini.

"Too often he misses easy chances and it cost us as well", I keep hearing this and yes, it cost us for a few games back in October/November when we had a poor run, Zlatan missed some great chances (as did lots of others) and no-one else stepped up to the plate.

Since that run, how the feck has Zlatan "cost us" anything? It's quite the opposite, he's won us shit loads of points. Does he miss a chance every now and then still, yes of course, but both Sanchez and Lukaku missed absolute sitters themselves this weekend, it's hardly a suprise, strikers miss chances. Please, list a bunch of games between August-September and December->date in which Zlatan has "cost us"*

It appears no matter how many goals Zlatan scores between now and the end of the season and how many points he wins us, for some people that spell in October/November is the all important one that has ruined everything else.

*can anyone answer me this? Because the games we have dropped points in since that poor spell we had in Oct-Nov were:

• Liverpool (Zlatan rescued a point)

• Hull (Pogba from Zlatan's pass, Rashford and Mata cost us with poor misses)

• Stoke (Mata's open goal from Zlatan's pass really cost us, think Miki had a great chance too right? and also, Zlatan opted to pass on a couple of occasions when he should have shot, hardly "great" chances for him though like the others had).

Why ask the same question @fellaini's barber when you ignored the answer above.

Tell me the games?

Or are we just gonna hold those weeks in Oct-Nov against him no matter what he does for the rest of the season? No matter how well he has done firing up back from 10 points off top 6 to 2 points off since Dec 5th?

 

[RedMaestro]

Are you really sure about this? Because I could think of many games where Zlatan missed key chances that could have won us games. Of course we have problems in other parts of the pitch but you can't just absolve Ibra like that, especially as other have helped us out when he's having these off days like this weekend. Could you mention players who you feel this 'issue' lies with? Micki? Martial? Lingard? I'd like to know.

Stats don't explain everything like we said but:

Rooney - 28 shots, 2 goals
Rashford - 25 shots, 3 goals
Lingard - 20 shots, 0 goals
Martial - 23 shots, 3 goals
Pogba - 81 shots, 4 goals
Mkhitaryan - 28 shots, 3 goals

Then there is Ibra and Mata, with 15 resp. 6 goals which is good. So I don't know in how many games the others have helped...

But it looks like they are starting to improve with goalscoring so I don't think it's a problem anymore, at least I hope not.

 

[fellaini's barber]

I don't think Costa has been shit, quite the opposite until the past few games.

And thanks for proving my point, Costa and Zlatan have similar output as lone strikers, the difference with Chelsea and United's league positions is the goals from Hazard & Pedro . When Costa has an off game, one of these steps up which hasn't been the case for United.

Fortunately it now seems Miki, Martial & Mata have fixed that problem but it's just a little too late. The problem was that no-one else stepped up during Oct-Nov.

Costa is influential to that Chelsea team in a way Ibra couldn't though I feel,even when he doesn't score. He's constantly running, harrying, dragging out defenders creating more space for the likes of Pedro and Hazard to operate on and at times score. With Ibra, when he's not playing well or not on the ball we lose a lot upfront. There's a reason the likes of City manage to score 4-5 goals very easily despite having an under performing striker, or even playing without one while we've managed 3/4 at most only few times this season. Our game relies too heavily on him doing well, so either have to change that, or I feel it will be another frustrating season for us if we go into next season with him as the main striker. I'm confident confident Mournho can't do something so LVG'esque as go into next season with Rooney,Ibra and Rashford as our striking options

 

[stevoc]

Sounds fair, Ibra isn't doing well enough for us with just 20 goals & 7 assists, he should be on over 30+ goals by mid-Feb

Maybe it is unfair, but he has been wasteful when compared to others. If he was as efficient in his shots to goals ratio as some other players in England he most likely would be on 30 goals in all competitions. Thats not an outrageous claim he's certainly capable of those sort of numbers.

And i'm not arguing that he hasn't been good this season he has and i've said as much, but he hasn't been great and as i said in my opinion we will need a more clinical finisher who can turn all these draws into wins next season if we are to challenge for or maybe even win the league.

You're way to hung up on that stat

I'm really not mate, my opinion was formed from watching him be wasteful all season. That stat which i only read yesterday just confirmed my feeling that he could be much more efficient in front of goal.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Costa is influential to that Chelsea team in a way Ibra couldn't though I feel,even when he doesn't score. He's constantly running, harrying, dragging out defenders creating more space for the likes of Pedro and Hazard to operate on and at times score.

Hmmm... yet Ibra has created a lot more chances than him this season for his teammates.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I'm really not mate, my opinion was formed from watching him be wasteful all season. That stat which i only read yesterday just confirmed my feeling that he could be much more efficient in front of goal.

So you think Ronaldo is wasteful too?

And yet you still can't tell me a game since that little run in Oct-Nov in which Zlatan "being wasteful" cost us. The little spell has drilled it's way deep into your brain ans you've almost dismissed how great he's been since then in firing us back to within 2 points of 3rd.

 

[stevoc]

Ibra has been good, but not great. Him and Pogba waste so many chances a game, despite creating so many too. It's hard to criticize, but at the same time that's the difference between us sitting higher up in the table and where we are. If we relied less on those players, then maybe his conversion rate wouldn't be a big deal, but if those two take up most of our opportunities (43%) and have bad conversation rates, then it is fair to criticize IMHO. Herrera is also a culprit in my opinion has taken 30 shots 0 goals. Granted they are long shots, still needs to be doing better with those chances. Lingard has had 20 shots without any goals also sad.

It is mate as he has scored a lot of goals for us, he probably creates more than other strikers as well which offsets it somewhat. And it's not all Ibrahimovic's fault other players are just as guilty or maybe even more so of being wasteful. As you say Pogba hasn't been great in front of goal either.

As a team we need to be much more ruthless in front of goal.

 

[stevoc]

And yet you still can't tell me a game since that little run in Oct-Nov in which Zlatan "being wasteful" cost us. The little spell has drilled it's way deep into your brain ans you've almost dismissed how great he's been since then in firing us back to within 2 points of 3rd.

When did you ask me this mate?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

When did you ask me this mate?

I've asked the question 3 times just on this page.

I think everyone is in agreement that Zlatan was class until October, had a dip during October and November and missed a bunch of chances which cost us in a period that none of our wingers or Pogba were contributing, thankfully that appears to have been remedied now. But can we really hold that against the other 8 months of a football season?

As I said earlier @stevoc

"It appears no matter how many goals Zlatan scores between now and the end of the season and how many points he wins us, for some people that spell in October/November is the all important one that has ruined everything else.

*can anyone answer me this? (referring to which games since then Zlatan "cost" us) Because the games we have dropped points in since that poor spell we had in Oct-Nov were:

• Everton (Zlatan scored a beauty)
• Liverpool (Zlatan rescued a point from his only chance)
• Hull (Pogba from Zlatan's pass, Rashford and Mata cost us with poor misses)
• Stoke (Mata missed an open goal from Zlatan's pass which really cost us, think Miki had a great chance too right?)"

 

[finneh]

Because @Escobar Mourinho has two thoughts on that, and most importantly for Mourinho, bringing off Zlatan would almost certainly mean bringing on Fellaini.

"Too often he misses easy chances and it cost us as well", I keep hearing this and yes, it cost us for a few games back in October/November when we had a poor run, Zlatan missed some great chances (as did lots of others) and no-one else stepped up to the plate.

Since that run, how the feck has Zlatan "cost us" anything? It's quite the opposite, he's won us shit loads of points. Does he miss a chance every now and then still, yes of course, but both Sanchez and Lukaku missed absolute sitters themselves this weekend, it's hardly a suprise, strikers miss chances. Please, list a bunch of games between August-September and December->date in which Zlatan has "cost us"*

It appears no matter how many goals Zlatan scores between now and the end of the season and how many points he wins us, for some people that spell in October/November is the all important one that has ruined everything else.

*can anyone answer me this? Because the games we have dropped points in since that poor spell we had in Oct-Nov were:

• Liverpool (Zlatan rescued a point)

• Hull (Pogba from Zlatan's pass, Rashford and Mata cost us with poor misses)

• Stoke (Mata's open goal from Zlatan's pass really cost us, think Miki had a great chance too right? and also, Zlatan opted to pass on a couple of occasions when he should have shot, hardly "great" chances for him though like the others had).

Over the course of maybe 7 games against Stoke x2, Liverpool, Burnley, Arsenal, Everton, West Ham he probably missed 10 chances that he should have scored, whilst scoring twice. There is no doubt that we'd be 6-10 points better off if he had his shooting boots on during these games. The problem for me isn't even that he went through a dry spell, that happens to all strikers. It's that even when we are winning he's missing simple chances. Against Leicester he should have gotten on the score sheet, against Watford he should have scored twice. In the games against West Ham, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Spurs he also missed good chances.

I have no problem with posters who believe that his other attributes more than make up for his poor finishing. If someone argued that he bullies defenders, creates space and chances for other players; which more than make up for the fact that he's a poor finisher; then we could have a good debate (no striker has everything). However it's the fact that some posters make statements like the bolded - if you accept that missing big chances means costing us then you have to admit he's cost us in several games thus far.

I'm also not saying that in those 7 games he should have scored every single one of the 12-15 great chances he had; or that he should have scored 2 against Watford, 1 against Leicester and 4 or so in other games. It would be ludicrous to suggest he should have scored another 20 PL goals. However he should have scored another 4-5 as a bare minimum, which as a % of current goals is another third.

The stats in the PL suggest this as well for all goal scorers on 10+:

Defoe - 37 shots / 22 on target / 14 goals - 38% shot to goal ratio (28% excluding penalties)
Mane - 33 shots / 21 on target / 11 goals - 33% shot to goal ratio (33% excluding penalties)
Lukaku - 51 shots / 33 on target / 16 goals - 32% shot to goal ratio (32% excluding penalties)
Kane - 46 shots / 28 on target / 14 goals - 31% shot to goal ratio (24% excluding penalties)
Costa - 52 shots / 31 on target / 15 goals - 29% shot to goal ratio (29% excluding penalties)
Sanchez - 64 shots / 37 on target / 17 goals - 27% shot to goal ratio (25% excluding penalties)
Alli - 44 shots / 24 on target / 11 goals - 25% shot to goal ratio (25% excluding penalties)
Hazard - 42 shots / 24 on target / 10 goals - 24% shot to goal ratio (20% excluding penalties)
Ibrahimovich - 76 shots / 42 on target / 15 goals - 20% shot to goal ratio (19% excluding penalties)
Aguero - 60 shots / 33 on target / 11 goals - 18% shot to goal ratio (14% excluding penalties)

Essentially he's been the second worst finisher in the league including and excluding penalties. If his conversion ratio was the same as Mane he'd have scored another 10 goals this season in the Premier League. However more realistically even at 25% you're looking at another 4 goals (potentially 8 points). No-one is saying he's the only one at fault (Pogba, Lingard & Mkhitaryan should also have done better); but he has been culpable.

 

[Zlaatan]

Has anybody said he's the sole reason we're not higher up the league? If so quote it.

I have lost count on how many people have said that we'd be up there with Chelsea if Zlatan would've scored more. Anyone who browses this forum should have read that at least a few times.

I'm sure I've replied to quite a few of them so if you want qoutes you can have a look through my comment history. I've ignored far more than I've replied to though since I find it to be such a poor argument.

 

[CG1010]

The whole of our team is horribly wasteful but yes let's pick on our main striker who has already scored 20 goals this season. Why? Because he didn't score any goal in the last match. Makes sense (not).

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Over the course of maybe 7 games against Stoke x2, Liverpool, Burnley, Arsenal, Everton, West Ham he probably missed 10 chances that he should have scored, whilst scoring twice. There is no doubt that we'd be 6-10 points better off if he had his shooting boots on during these games. The problem for me isn't even that he went through a dry spell, that happens to all strikers. It's that even when we are winning he's missing simple chances. Against Leicester he should have gotten on the score sheet, against Watford he should have scored twice. In the games against West Ham, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Spurs he also missed good chances.

I have no problem with posters who believe that his other attributes more than make up for his poor finishing. If someone argued that he bullies defenders, creates space and chances for other players; which more than make up for the fact that he's a poor finisher; then we could have a good debate (no striker has everything). However it's the fact that some posters make statements like the bolded - if you accept that missing big chances means costing us then you have to admit he's cost us in several games thus far.

I'm also not saying that in those 7 games he should have scored every single one of the 12-15 great chances he had; or that he should have scored 2 against Watford, 1 against Leicester and 4 or so in other games. It would be ludicrous to suggest he should have scored another 20 PL goals. However he should have scored another 4-5 as a bare minimum, which as a % of current goals is another third.

The stats in the PL suggest this as well for all goal scorers on 10+:

Defoe - 37 shots / 22 on target / 14 goals - 38% shot to goal ratio (28% excluding penalties)
Mane - 33 shots / 21 on target / 11 goals - 33% shot to goal ratio (33% excluding penalties)
Lukaku - 51 shots / 33 on target / 16 goals - 32% shot to goal ratio (32% excluding penalties)
Kane - 46 shots / 28 on target / 14 goals - 31% shot to goal ratio (24% excluding penalties)
Costa - 52 shots / 31 on target / 15 goals - 29% shot to goal ratio (29% excluding penalties)
Sanchez - 64 shots / 37 on target / 17 goals - 27% shot to goal ratio (25% excluding penalties)
Alli - 44 shots / 24 on target / 11 goals - 25% shot to goal ratio (25% excluding penalties)
Hazard - 42 shots / 24 on target / 10 goals - 24% shot to goal ratio (20% excluding penalties)
Ibrahimovich - 76 shots / 42 on target / 15 goals - 20% shot to goal ratio (19% excluding penalties)
Aguero - 60 shots / 33 on target / 11 goals - 18% shot to goal ratio (14% excluding penalties)

Essentially he's been the second worst finisher in the league including and excluding penalties. If his conversion ratio was the same as Mane he'd have scored another 10 goals this season in the Premier League. However more realistically even at 25% you're looking at another 4 goals (potentially 8 points). No-one is saying he's the only one at fault (Pogba, Lingard & Mkhitaryan should also have done better); but he has been culpable.

That makes zero sense unless you look at each shot on it's own. That logic @finneh makes Ronaldo look awful.

 

[Kamprad]

I think you're reading way to much in to the things he says sometimes. I don't think it's up to Zlatan to restrict what someone does on the field, he just expresses his frustration when someone makes a mistake. Again, if there was a problem with that, the manager would surely say something. But I did actually say after the Watford game that it's unacceptable and doesn't look good when he blames players ingame for not passing to him, in response to someone stating he blamed Martial for not passing, which turned out not to be true though.

I don't know what the players actually feel inside, and he has mostly played with experienced players since Juventus so maybe that's why it was never an issue. But I just can't see it myself. And you don't have to be responsible for developing young players to be a leader.

Regarding Ajax Malmo and Sweden, those where his early years and he was a cocky kid back then. He has matured a lot since then but he still has that arrogance.

In regard to United, I don't think there will be any issues. Pogba and Zlatan work well together. Martial though has his own issues to sort out. Part of the basis for Martial's exclusion could be related to Zlatan. It could be that they don't synergize well together. This is just speculation on my part but they certainly don't seem to have a great understanding on the pitch. But the reality is, we have to accomodate Ibra since he's our best player. Martial wants ball to feet and Zlatan needs clever movement and runners. Anyway, let's just hope it all works out and we find an adequate replacement for him.

Funny thing is since I posted here I've read two rather big headlines in Swedens two biggest newspapers about just the things we've been discussing. One where Marc Ingla, former Barcelona employee, now CEO in Lille, confirms there were tensions between Messi and Zlatan.

Another one today where a L'Equipe journalist says Zlatan wasn't always nice to his teammates. He says Lucas Moura and Cavani has gotten better since he left because "they don't need to be afraid of Zlatan anymore". But he also says Zlatan was a leader and a winner and he is a big loss for PSG. Thy are struggling now because they don't have the same type of leader and they miss his goals.

I'm not reading to much into what he says. I don't really care if he expresses his frustration towards anyone. I like it when people express their emotions. I think players need that and not to be suffocated. My problem is he himself is not letting other players express their frustration and personalities if it's towards him or towards his ego. He doesn't give room for other egos. That will be a huge problem. Just wait and see. And I think it'll start with Martial because he is a offensive player with a rather big ego. With Pogba it's different. He plays further down the pitch and his personality is not he same. Still think he also could get tired of Zlatan.

The Sun says today that Rashford is thinking of leaving because he doesn't get enough time on the pitch. Don't know if it's true. But if it is, what happend to the "learning from Ibra"-process?

Again, he is a great player. He has won championships for his teams in a way only Messi and MAYBE Cristiano could do. He is good at putting teams on his shoulders and lift them. But he takes a lot of room himself but doesn't give the same room for other players. That's ok as long as he is the clear number one. But he should leave as soon as the other, younger, players start getting close. Or there will be problems. Til then, I'm happy he is here and I'm enjoying every moment.

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

I've asked the question 3 times just on this page.

I think everyone is in agreement that Zlatan was class until October, had a dip during October and November and missed a bunch of chances which cost us in a period that none of our wingers or Pogba were contributing, thankfully that appears to have been remedied now. But can we really hold that against the other 8 months of a football season?

As I said earlier @stevoc

"It appears no matter how many goals Zlatan scores between now and the end of the season and how many points he wins us, for some people that spell in October/November is the all important one that has ruined everything else.

*can anyone answer me this? (referring to which games since then Zlatan "cost" us) Because the games we have dropped points in since that poor spell we had in Oct-Nov were:

• Everton (Zlatan scored a beauty)
• Liverpool (Zlatan rescued a point from his only chance)
• Hull (Pogba from Zlatan's pass, Rashford and Mata cost us with poor misses)
• Stoke (Mata missed an open goal from Zlatan's pass which really cost us, think Miki had a great chance too right?)"

He had a couple of good chances against Stoke, but as you point out others had better. I think the main point of irritation is how many easy chances he has missed, particularly ones by trying to be too clever or different (the chance against Watford where he could have headed it in, the chance in the first game against Stoke where he could've easily scored if he'd shot into the goalkeeper's far post). Let's not forget how goal difference has worked against us in the last few seasons, any miss could be very important.

 

[RedMaestro]

• Stoke (Mata missed an open goal from Zlatan's pass which really cost us, think Miki had a great chance too right?)"

Wasn't this a so called "sitter"? A pass from Valencia which Mkhi shot really, really high over the goal?

 

[RedMaestro]

He had a couple of good chances against Stoke, but as you point out others had better. I think the main point of irritation is how many easy chances he has missed, particularly ones by trying to be too clever or different (the chance against Watford where he could have headed it in, the chance in the first game against Stoke where he could've easily scored if he'd shot into the goalkeeper's far post). Let's not forget how goal difference has worked against us in the last few seasons, any miss could be very important.

It's easy to "use ifs and buts" - for instance - if the goalkeepers hadn't played their lifetime performances against Manchester United in a couple of games, Ibra could have scored a lot too. He hasn't just made easy mistakes, goalkeepers have made fantastic saves. And one goal was also disallowed, the one against Middlesbrough - the "martial arts kick".

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

It's easy to "use ifs and buts" - for instance - if the goalkeepers hadn't played their lifetime performances against Manchester United in a couple of games, Ibra could have scored a lot too. He hasn't just made easy mistakes, goalkeepers have made fantastic saves. And one goal was also disallowed, the one against Middlesbrough - the "martial arts kick".

Of course. I'm not saying literally every chance he didn't score is 100% down to Ibra, just that there are several good chances that you would expect a top quality "orthodox" striker to finish with ease by just choosing the most obvious execution.

 

[Stacks]

Why take him off when he has a chance to bag more goals though? Why are people so desperate for him to be subbed?

for me personally its for protection. to protect our best player, which he is, as the games will come thick and fast. people think Zlatan is some superman that can play at the same level/intensity every minute of every game but at the business end of the season why risk it? why risk our top 4 chances by making Zlatan play on Thursdays then Sundays?

 

[finneh]

That makes zero sense unless you look at each shot on it's own. That logic @finneh makes Ronaldo look awful.

I have watched each and every shot he's made this season. The data is there to back up what is obvious to anyone who watches us, not the other way around.

 

[RedMaestro]

Funny thing is since I posted here I've read two rather big headlines in Swedens two biggest newspapers about just the things we've been discussing. One where Marc Ingla, former Barcelona employee, now CEO in Lille, confirms there were tensions between Messi and Zlatan.

Another one today where a L'Equipe journalist says Zlatan wasn't always nice to his teammates. He says Lucas Moura and Cavani has gotten better since he left because "they don't need to be afraid of Zlatan anymore". But he also says Zlatan was a leader and a winner and he is a big loss for PSG. Thy are struggling now because they don't have the same type of leader and they miss his goals.

I'm not reading to much into what he says. I don't really care if he expresses his frustration towards anyone. I like it when people express their emotions. I think players need that and not to be suffocated. My problem is he himself is not letting other players express their frustration and personalities if it's towards him or towards his ego. He doesn't give room for other egos. That will be a huge problem. Just wait and see. And I think it'll start with Martial because he is a offensive player with a rather big ego. With Pogba it's different. He plays further down the pitch and his personality is not he same. Still think he also could get tired of Zlatan.

The Sun says today that Rashford is thinking of leaving because he doesn't get enough time on the pitch. Don't know if it's true. But if it is, what happend to the "learning from Ibra"-process?

Again, he is a great player. He has won championships for his teams in a way only Messi and MAYBE Cristiano could do. He is good at putting teams on his shoulders and lift them. But he takes a lot of room himself but doesn't give the same room for other players. That's ok as long as he is the clear number one. But he should leave as soon as the other, younger, players start getting close. Or there will be problems. Til then, I'm happy he is here and I'm enjoying every moment.

I'm sorry but if you don't know Ibra or the other players personally it's a bit hard to say what is right or wrong. For every player who's supposedly been afraid of Ibra or been worse because of him, atleast 10 times more are saying the opposite.

Rashford's not going anywhere. It's not like Ibra's going to stay for 5+ years. He is close to retiring so that's stupid news. Sure he could maybe want to be loaned out to a mid-table club for further development if he finds it that he plays to Little. But Mourinho has already said in interviews that he believes in Rashford and that he expects a lot from him next season. This season is an "off-season" where the element of surprise doesn't exist.

What's wrong with him being #1? Isn't he being the leader that the team needs? Isn't he pitching in with goals, assists and holding up the ball? Thiago Silva, Thiago Motta and Verratti were very important at PSG, but I haven't heard Ibra having any problems with them? I've actually never heard of any problems with him from the starting players in any club (at least none I can remember and not without reason) - only the ones that have difficulties taking a spot in the first line up. Nothing wrong with that, but that also shows that their claims have a bit to do about jealousy.