maybe you are right. the team is set up for him in many ways so that he gets the bulk of chances and wins the top scorer award.Erm....
No no it's true, Sanchez & Zlatan are too "wasteful" and your stats prove it; both sides would be better off if they had Kane or Lukaku up top for sure.
Ronaldo is the most "wasteful" player in the World right? Madrid should have upgraded to Kane a couple of years back, imagine where they'd be now.
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It's very true. Getting on the end of chances is an ability in itself. It's why I've never understood the criticism that Ronaldo scores so many tap ins. If it were that easy everyone would be doing it.
Yeah but you didn't ask me, i don't read all your posts mate. So you'll have to forgive my confusion when you phrased your last reply to me as if you had asked me a question multiple times and i had been ignoring it.
Well, I agree with you on that. He has missed a couple of "easy" chances. What it's down to is a bit hard to say. It could be as easy as that he's past his peak and is too old, so therefore easier mistakes tend to happen. But it could also be because he's in a new league, new country, new teammates, new opponents (goalkeepers). He spent a lot of time in France where he was used to a way of playing and taking his shots. But if you remember his he took his shots a bit different a the beginning in PL, but he's actually doing it a bit more different know. For instance, he both takes the shots and makes the passes a lot faster because he doesn't have as much time as in the Ligue 1.
I'm convinced that if he decides to stay one more season, that's going to mean he's still "got it" and he will therefore probably prepare himself even more to the style of play that's needed in this league.
But Ibra is his harshest critic, for instance this is what he said after the Watford game (from M.E.N.):
“I tried to give them options to play around me, to give the guys more confidence to do that,” revealed Ibrahimovic.
“It could have been a few more than 2-0, I wish I could have scored. I had one or two good chances and I should have scored,” he added.
“In the games you don’t have a lot of opportunities and you should take care of them when you get them. That’s why I’m a little bit disappointed in myself.
“But I felt good in the game. I got a lot of balls, tried to create and give stability to the team. The only thing I missed was the goal.”
One thing I don't understand is people who want Zlatan to be taken off when he's getting himself chances and creating them for others. The guy had more shots and created more chances for teammates than anyone in the league last weekend.
The latter half of last season we were with a centre forward (Rashford) who could do neither thing. He got goals but not in any sort of sustainable or likely manner.
Also people need to look into analytics at shot conversion rates. See people continually describing shots with historical 10% conversion rates as sitters.
The latter half of last season we were with a centre forward (Rashford) who could do neither thing. He got goals but not in any sort of sustainable or likely manner.
Also people need to look into analytics at shot conversion rates. See people continually describing shots with historical 10% conversion rates as sitters.
Yes but that's not the same as saying he's the only reason. I'm sure the same posters would also say if the wingers had scored the same as last season we'd also be up there. Or if Mourinho hadn't experimented with Fellaini and Lingard we'd be up there. I've explained that a few times.
This is why the thread is on the verge of turning into the Rooney one. Disagree with the post sure but let's not start misrepresenting statements.
But is the Ibra criticism the same as if the wingers get critique? Have the wingers been really strong this season but only lacked in goalscoring? In Ibra's case, it's as if his contribution this far isn't enough. Sure you always want perfection, but when he's among the best in the team this season performance wise, it's strange that he gets a lot, more or the equal amount of criticism as the ones that haven't had a good season.
But it's at least looking like the others are starting too pitch in a lot more than earlier, so Ibra will hopefully not have to carry the team on his "shoulders"...
Doesn't surprise me. I thought his all-round game against Watford was top class. As always, it only takes one or two really obvious mistakes for a player's overall performance to get incorrectly slated.
Those stats mean nothing mate, like I said before, those shots can be from various positions on the field with a different degree of difficulty to actually score. None of those shots in those stats have anything in common, to be stacked up like that and be used as evidence of anything is nonsensical.
If you want those stats to be useful, you need to establish things like angle, distance, positions of defenders, pace and height of the ball coming towards you, position of GK, GK performance against a shot and I can go on and on. These things are impossible to measure correctly, just appreciated like the people who make those sites like opta and whoscored.
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I think you've nailed it here Pogue, and I do really think that a tonne of posters still cannot forgive his poor run in October and November and that makes them all the more likely to linger on those obvious mistakes.
6 chances he created against Watford but you'd have thought we had a Sunday league player up top judging by some of the comments on here during and after the game.
There were games in that run where he really was poor. Very different to Saturday's performance.
Obviously they mean absolutely nothing unless you delve deeper. The likes of Ronaldo and Zlatan often have bloated stats because they take on shots others wouldn't and get themselves into tonnes of positions to shoot, they also take a load of free-kicks which are a minimal chance of a goal.
To just list a load of shots taken stats/goals scored & claim it proves anything is just garbage.
I'm not sure, quantifying whose got more stick is beyond my level of caring.
In anycase that's a separate issue. Ultimately I'm saying don't take criticism of the player so personally. Nobody is putting our position squarely at his feet. Nobody.
Those guys who use words like "disgraceful" and "pathetic" aren't worth pages and pages of reaction. The same language is used most of the player threads after a poor performance. I think they're trying to demonstrate how passionate they are by using over the top phrasing.
Agreed.
It's not about who gets more, it's about why they get it, despite having an overall strong game and mainly not "deserving" such "harsh" treatment. When some are like that, it looks like they haven't watched the entire match and only seen a few parts of it. For instance against Watford (from Twitter) - Ibrahimovic created 6 chances (1 assist), 1 fewer than the entire Watford team managed combined. Is this a bad game and does he "deserve" to give his spot to Rashford because of that game (as soon as he doesn't score some say that either Martial or Rashford should take his place).
Stats can be misleading but I think it's fair to say that Ibra's finishing has generally been fairly poor. Even in games where his all-round play has been decent. Hard to know why. I haven't followed his career closely enough to know whether or not he's one of those strikers who has always been a bit wasteful?
It's also not a huge problem in games when he plays as well as he did against Watford. Plus you have the age old truism that you should only really worry about your striker when the goals and the chances start to dry up. If he keeps on making clever runs like he did for that volley he smashed over then the goals will come. Eventually.
Well that's football. It creates very differing opinions. I'm sure you have opinions others can't get on board with. You're also on a forum designed for debate.
I've still only seen the highlights of the Watford game so can't get involved as to whether he was any good or not.
Remember though Zlatan gets judged by high standards and rightly so. He bigs himself up and plenty on here tell us he's incredible. You can't complain if he gets more stick than the average player. It's the same for all big name players.
You are making it sound like Sanchez just hits the byline and blindly crosses a ball, hoping a Giroud or an Oezil will connect to it. His crosses and passes are quite accurate most of the time.
The second paragraph begins with a wrong assertion. Dribbling is exactly what an advanced playmaker is supposed to do. Pirlo, Xavi, Alonso etc. don't need to dribble(they play deep) but advanced players like Messi, Hazard, Sanchez etc. have to do it for the team. The rest of the paragraph actually describes Sanchez better than Zlatan. Plus he has scored and created more in less minutes than Zlatan. So, I don't know where the creativity part comes from.
He's always been a bit inconsistent so I don't see this a something new, when he misses a little too much. But at first (his drought period) I think it had a bit to do with adapting to the new league, but after a while knew exactly the way he should play. After that period I think he scored basically on every chance he got. But after the tough period with a lot of games during a short period I think his form is a bit weaker - Mourinho has "drained the battery".
Now, when he gets a bit of resting time again I think he'll slowly return to a better standard when it comes to scoring. If not then it's easy - he's not that young anymore and all players make more mistakes the older they get. But I still think it's mostly form. But he's always going to have a "bad" conversion rate, since he's taking shots most players don't...
At Zlatan's age, no-one can be playmaker and finisher on a regular basis - because that's what he's been - without some give or take in front of goal.
He's been extraordinary this season because he already has 20 goals. The level of physicality, intensity and concentration levels needed to make killer passes and score is simply going to diminish with age, it's a fact of life.
People's expectations of him are way too high. For the most part, he's reached them - and I would say exceeded them.
An excellent season, irrespective of what's to come.
He's been extraordinary this season because he already has 20 goals. The level of physicality, intensity and concentration levels needed to make killer passes and score is simply going to diminish with age, it's a fact of life.
People's expectations of him are way too high. For the most part, he's reached them - and I would say exceeded them.
An excellent season, irrespective of what's to come.
He's always been the guy who scores a tonne of goals no-one else could but he's never been a Solskjær type in the clinical stakes, very few strikers are. Sanchez and Lukaku (2 so called improvements according to many on these boards) certainly aren't. That spell in Oct & Nov was beyond unusual though and has clouded judgement for many in the "wasteful" stakes because there were so many great chances in that spell, the way he's been the rest of the season is much more like the real Zlatan.
As I said earlier, getting so many chances is in itself an incredible talent, but some here would have you believe that just by switching to a more Solskjær-esque clincal striker he'd automatically get the same amount of chances as Zlatan and therefore score more. It bollocks because there are a tonne of Zatan's goals they wouldn't score, and they simply wouldn't get the amount of chances Zlatan does; just as Solskjær when played from the start didn't get close to Andrew Cole in the "chances" column.
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Of course. Also agree with you about Ibra has himself to blame when he constantly "boasts". I still think most people are actually very "sound" in their assessments.
What has been covered by Dobbs? He hasn't given any explanation to why he doesn't believe it's true and hasn't even entertained the idea that there is a chance of people feeling like this.
Now is it really that inconceivable that some fans who believe Martial or Rashford deserve to be given a chance upfront atleast at the end of games where we're safe could be agitated about this fact. Is it that mind boggling to think that this could be clouding their judgement on Ibra? The man who is taking their minutes. I have been calling them fanboys but obviously that's a little bit of an exaggeration on my part.
Can you honestly answer these questions and tell me this is really that unbelievable? I don't see why it doesn't belong in this thread. It directly involves Zlatans performances.
On Squawka, The comparison among Zlatan and the other scorers in the league is here
It shows how wasteful he's been with his attempts
It shows how wasteful he's been with his attempts
I'm with you on this. I am also surprised to read so many complaining about Zlatan. He has been a critical addition for us to be where we are at this moment. I have really enjoyed watching him play this season. Not just his goals but his movements and his attempts at creating. Yes, he's not 100% successful but who is? This sport is really about trying and keep trying until you succeed. Without trying to create, we wouldn't have chances which was our problem in the past couple of seasons.
Exactly. Getting hung up on chance conversion stats can easily end up with myths about how a more clinical striker would definitely score more goals. Which ignores how difficult it can be to get yourself in a position to get on the end of those chances in the first place. Andy Cole's a great example of someone who was often guilty of terrible misses but you wouldn't really mind because you knew there would be another one soon.
You do the exact same thing but in reverse. You're here extensively defending Zlatan and frequently criticising in the Martial thread (we've had discussions there and you're strongly in favour of the decisions to drop Martial).
I don't like the phrase but by your own logic that makes you a Zlatan fanboy right? Only criticising Martial because you like Zlatan?
Do you see now why you're wrong?
This derails the thread and is the reason I didn't want to go into it. Its just a slightly paranoid theory you alone have brought up. You've asked a few times though so there you go.
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No, I just said that this is something that adds to his stats of creating, but it doesn't require vision does it? And I wasn't comparing them only based on this year but on their careers, what they are capable of. Look at Sanchez assists from 14/15, half are from corners half crosses, only one ball in behind. Zlatan doesn't get to take corners. Just look at their career assists and you will see who's assists are more difficult to pull of.
It isn't really what an advanced player has to do. Zlatan doesn't have that ability. Instead he relys more on his hold up play to play people in. And dropping deep like a depp lying playmaker. It's actually more difficult to create if you can't dribble/lack pace.
So who is in the right then? The person who defends the player with 20 goals who has been our most important player and plays almost every game. Or someone who does the same for a player with 3 goals who has failed to apply and assert himself to feature regularly?
So you do agree that what I wrote in the post you just quoted could be possible?
No it doesn't, it's just the same rehashed stats that have popped up about 15 times on here since Watford.
Fwiw, Sanchez also appears "wasteful" (as does Ronaldo every season in the La Liga stats) on all these, and that should tell you all you need to know about using these stats. Sanchez is top drawer.
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Exactly Pogue, I mentioned Cole on the previous page as a perfect example of this.
Rehashed stats
sure.... You probably haven't even clicked on the link. Ibra has been wasteful compared to other major goal scorers. It is as clear as day.It still feels surreal that he's actually here. I admittedly wasn't sure about him when he was announced, but he really is living up to his reputation. Only slight criticism is that he still doesn't convert as many as I'd like, but when he's comfortably our top scorer I guess the others need to step it up as a greater priority.
He's lost so much pace it seem in a short time I feel, if he had pace it would be the perfect player here for a long time. Expected because of his age, of course it had to happen.
But it's hard to call him anything but a fantastic signing. 20 goals and we are in february.
One of the signings of the season in the league. But hey, must be because i'm a "Zlatan fanboy" and nothing else..
But it's hard to call him anything but a fantastic signing. 20 goals and we are in february.
One of the signings of the season in the league. But hey, must be because i'm a "Zlatan fanboy" and nothing else..
But they didn't say that, that's the whole point. Why didn't they mention the other reasons as well then when they blamed Zlatan? I have no idea whether these guys blamed the wingers or Mourinho at other times or not but you wanted quotes which only blamed Zlatan and there have been plently of them.
Jose is such a genius. Even if Zlatan doesn't win a major trophy with this club, we will win a CL eventually. After his contract expires.
Don't think that PSG result would have happened with Zlatan leading the line. You can see the merits of replacing Zlatan with a younger, pacier, quality striker.
Well I would give credit to the "cup specialist" Emery who also did great at Sevilla.
It's not a slight on Zlatan but I do find him a bit ineffective in these sort of games in general. They'd not be as pacey as they were today if Zlatan was up top and Cavani on the left.
He's never been fast, has he? Admittedly I haven't seen much of him except some big CL games but he's always looked like a slow striker to me.
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