[Kraftwerker]

Couldn't Zlatan play behind two quick forwards in a 3-4-1-2?

Might be trying to shoehorn too many attackers in but would like to see it against a weaker opponent.

He has the skill-set to play there I reckon.

 

[RedMaestro]

There is no way he would have scored it. Even if the defence didn't catch up with him those are the chances he has been worst at finishing this season. That said, Rashford has missed a few in recent games too.

Maybe you're right. I just thought these two goals were a little bit similar, not too much, but a bit:

 

[RedMaestro]

I agree and I think benching him yesterday under the guise of being tired and rested for midweek was/is smoke and mirrors.

May be reading too much into it though!

Impossible to know. Ibrahimovic has stated many times that he's been tired, actually from December when Mourinho used him too much. Even Mourinho said that he didn't want to use Ibra that much but was 'forced' to (Europa League position was difficult during that period).

The real sign of fatigue I saw from Ibrahimovic was after the Cup final against Southampton. Don't know if others noticed it, but he looked like he was going to collapse when the game was over.

But I do think 'saving' Ibrahimovic for the Europa League game is the right thing. Despite having a mathematical chance to get the top 4 position, Europa League is still the best chance. Since Mourinho's obviously not going to be able to use Ibra in all of the remaining games, we shouldn't think that there's more to him not playing against Chelsea than there is.

The 'smoke and mirrors' might have been to 'confuse' Chelsea. They had their tactics planned against Ibrahimovic and Mourinho 'surprised' them by using Rashford instead.

But Ibrahimovic might still leave. It's like Ibra said himself. If he can still play his best game then he'll stay, if not then he'll likely leave.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Maybe you're right. I just thought these two goals were a little bit similar, not too much, but a bit:

He's a lot closer to goal there.

 

[RedMaestro]

He's a lot closer to goal there.

I know that's why I said it was a bit similar, not too much. But Ibrahimovic did this in the 88th minute, which was pretty good for him, tired and all.

I still hope Mourinho will use them in 4-4-2. It's worth a try before deciding what to do. Play with 1 or 2 strikers, if it's 1, should Rashford be the starter?

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

One thing I did like from Zlatan yesterday was that the second he came on, he knew he had to put a shift in. Rashford et al showed the effort and Zlatan seemed to realise that if he didn't follow suit Mourinho could easily be swayed to drop him more often.

He came on and held the ball up fantastically well and chased a fair bit.

Really hope he's here next season, and in an ideal world where he realises that he won't start every match.

 

[Zlaatan]

There is no way he would have scored it. Even if the defence didn't catch up with him those are the chances he has been worst at finishing this season. That said, Rashford has missed a few in recent games too.

There is "no way" he would have scored a 1-on-1 with the keeper? Right..

 

[littleman]

1 game not enough to judge the team without Zlatan.

3 games definitely enough to judge and write off Rashford the striker.

Fans pick and choose what suits their beliefs.

15-20 years of data with Zlatan, 2 years of data with Rashford..

I guess if you want to simplify or make everything sound stupid you can say we're all going to die anyway why bother playing football

 

[Classical Mechanic]

There is "no way" he would have scored a 1-on-1 with the keeper? Right..

He doesn't have the pace to score from that position in the first place and his one on one finishing has been especially poor this season. He was through on goal one on one a few games ago, closer to goal than that and they play caught up to him before he shot.

I know that's why I said it was a bit similar, not too much. But Ibrahimovic did this in the 88th minute, which was pretty good for him, tired and all.

I still hope Mourinho will use them in 4-4-2. It's worth a try before deciding what to do. Play with 1 or 2 strikers, if it's 1, should Rashford be the starter?

It was a cracking finish vs Palace no question.

He did well when he came on yesterday holding the ball up and using his 'experience' to disrupt play.

 

[Dobbs]

15-20 years of data with Zlatan, 2 years of data with Rashford..

I guess if you want to simplify or make everything sound stupid you can say we're all going to die anyway why bother playing football

I'm lost as to what your point is.

I'm merely saying how fans use a small number of games to prove a point.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

Probably Zlatan going to somewhere else next season is true now.

Because the way I see it is that Jose is able to drop him now instead of trying to persuade him to stay next season by keep playing him in almost every game 90 mins.

I suppose we will see more in coming games.

How do you work that out considering on Thursday, Zlatan said he was extremely tired.

It would be counter productive to play him again 90 minutes if he himself said he was tired.

 

[el3mel]

Think people are over complicating things.

He didn't play because 1)being rested for Europe League game , and 2) Jose was convinced of Rashford ability to tear their defense after the FA cup and decided to go with the same approach.

He may leave but him not playing this match is definitely not an indicator to it.

Better to rest him,too, against Arsenal and Spurs to be ready for the Europe League semi-finals if we reached it.

 

[littleman]

I'm lost as to what your point is.

I'm merely saying how fans use a small number of games to prove a point.

And I'm saying they don't, there's a lot more to it.

But if you keep "being lost", I can't help you.

 

[Dobbs]

And I'm saying they don't, there's a lot more to it.

But if you keep "being lost", I can't help you.

I don't need help, not in that sense anyway.

Go look at the posts after the West Brom game and see how people decided it was Zlatan missing that caused the draw. Then check the posts after Chelsea and see how posters decided Rashford up front is the answer.

Then come and tell me posters definitely don't use limited numbers of games to draw conclusions.

 

[Zlaatan]

He doesn't have the pace to score from that position in the first place and his one on one finishing has been especially poor this season. He was through on goal one on one a few games ago, closer to goal than that and they play caught up to him before he shot.



It was a cracking finish vs Palace no question.

He did well when he came on yesterday holding the ball up and using his 'experience' to disrupt play.

It's true that he couldn't have scored in the same way as Rashford did yesterday because he's obviously too slow, but you said there's no way he'd score even if the defence didn't catch up with him, which is a bit cynical. Just because he's missed a few 1-on-1's this season doesn't give him a 0% chance to score on the next one.
Especially when you consider that a handful of his goals scored this season has actually been 1-on-1's.

 

[Giggsyking]

Conversion rate
Vardy 34.4%
Mane 34.2%
Lukaku 32.9%

Zlatan 15% ?!!

shocking stats

Maybe it is not the team. Maybe its Zlatan
Maybe if we had Vardy we would have been up on the top of the league.

 

[el3mel]

Conversion rate
Vardy 34.4%
Mane 34.2%
Lukaku 32.9%

Zlatan 15% ?!!

shocking stats

Maybe it is not the team. Maybe its Zlatan
Maybe if we had Vardy we would have been up on the top of the league.

Vardy only scored 13 goals in 40 matches this season including only 11 in the league , 3 of them were in one match vs City , with the same team he had scored 24 goals in the league only previous season.

 

[Giggsyking]

Vardy only scored 13 goals in 40 matches this season including only 11 in the league , 3 of them were in one match vs City , with the same team he had scored 24 goals in the league only previous season.

Ahmed you are putting a fight to defend Zlatan just as you do in kooora Cafe

 

[el3mel]

Ahmed you are putting a fight to defend Zlatan just as you do in kooora Cafe

I'm actually not defending Zlatan here but if we took this stats strictly , then Vardy should be better than Aguero , Costa and Sanchez , something that's clearly not true.

I saw you in the newbie thread while I was there and have my doubts that you're from Kooora so good to confirm my doubts

 

[Giggsyking]

I'm actually not defending Zlatan here but if we took this stats strictly , then Vardy should be better than Aguero , Costa and Sanchez , something that's clearly not true.

I saw you in the newbie thread while I was there and have my doubts that you're from Kooora so good to confirm my doubts

He might not be better, but he is not that far away. He is a very good striker and if we had him this season he would have done a big difference in draw series that we had at OT specially if he comes on from the bench.

Your doubts are true . Nice to talk to you again.

 

[el3mel]

He might not be better, but he is not that far away. He is a very good striker and if we had him this season he would have done a big difference in draw series that we had at OT.

Your doubts are true . Nice to talk to you again.

He's definitely a good striker, but I just believe the whole thing about "conversion rates" are not very accurate because as you see it made Vardy the best striker in the league and better than all strikers of the top 6 teams which can't be true , even if he's better than Zlatan he can't be better than Aguero or Sanchez as the stats made. That's my point.

Glad to see you anytime

 

[#07]

Conversion rate
Vardy 34.4%
Mane 34.2%
Lukaku 32.9%

Zlatan 15% ?!!

shocking stats

Maybe it is not the team. Maybe its Zlatan
Maybe if we had Vardy we would have been up on the top of the league.

I've not checked the stats for the forwards you've quoted but for Costa and Kane, because they play for the two teams fighting for the title and that's what United should be doing.

While I don't think Vardy would've changed our season, based on Costa and Kane's output, you may well have a point that Ibra's relatively low conversion rate is the reason we're not in the title race. Ibra has scored 17 Premier League goals from 115 shots (link). That rounds to a chance conversion rate of 15 per cent as you say. By comparison Diego Costa has 17 goals from 93 shots, which rounds to a chance conversion rate of 18 per cent (link). Harry Kane has 20 goals from 76 shots, which rounds to a chance conversion rate of 26 per cent (link).

Its not just about shots either, its the type of shots Ibra's missing that's been an issue too. In the league this season Zlatan has missed 18 'Big Chances' (chances that you'd reasonably expect a player to score). That is double the 9 Big Chances Kane has missed, and nearly double the 10 Big Chances Costa has missed.

The last time we won the title Robin Van Persie scored 26 Premier League goals from 141 shots, a chance conversion rate that rounds to 18 per cent (link). As Costa and Kane are showing, that 18 per cent is the benchmark for a successful title chase.

Zlatan has been an amazing player for us, the scorer of some superb goals. Yet, he has a tendency to bury the sublime and miss the ridiculous. His opener against Sunderland an example of the former, the free header he missed between the Everton posts a few days before an example of the latter. Sadly for us those misses have added up. If our main striker's chance conversion rate was the same level as Costa's, the same as Van Persie's in 2012/13, we'd be fighting for our 21st title right now.

 

[sunama]

If our main striker's chance conversion rate was the same level as Costa's, the same as Van Persie's in 2012/13, we'd be fighting for our 21st title right now.

I agree with this, but then I don't expect Ibra to score 35 league goals per season.
Also, you neglected to mention our other attackers - why are our other attackers not scoring goals?

 

[#07]

I agree with this, but then I don't expect Ibra to score 35 league goals per season.
Also, you neglected to mention our other attackers - why are our other attackers not scoring goals?

Just curious, why shouldn't Ibra score a stupid amount League goals? For the sake of argument, say he'd missed the same number of big chances Costa has he'd have 25 league goals. This is a striker that scored 50 times last season.

I agree our side as a whole has been pathetic in front of goal, but every successful team has a main striker who supplies most their goals. For Chelsea and Spurs its Costa and Kane. For us it's Zlatan. That's why I used them as points for comparison.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

 

[Born2Lose]

I've not checked the stats for the forwards you've quoted but for Costa and Kane, because they play for the two teams fighting for the title and that's what United should be doing.

While I don't think Vardy would've changed our season, based on Costa and Kane's output, you may well have a point that Ibra's relatively low conversion rate is the reason we're not in the title race. Ibra has scored 17 Premier League goals from 115 shots (link). That rounds to a chance conversion rate of 15 per cent as you say. By comparison Diego Costa has 17 goals from 93 shots, which rounds to a chance conversion rate of 18 per cent (link). Harry Kane has 20 goals from 76 shots, which rounds to a chance conversion rate of 26 per cent (link).

Its not just about shots either, its the type of shots Ibra's missing that's been an issue too. In the league this season Zlatan has missed 18 'Big Chances' (chances that you'd reasonably expect a player to score). That is double the 9 Big Chances Kane has missed, and nearly double the 10 Big Chances Costa has missed.

The last time we won the title Robin Van Persie scored 26 Premier League goals from 141 shots, a chance conversion rate that rounds to 18 per cent (link). As Costa and Kane are showing, that 18 per cent is the benchmark for a successful title chase.

Zlatan has been an amazing player for us, the scorer of some superb goals. Yet, he has a tendency to bury the sublime and miss the ridiculous. His opener against Sunderland an example of the former, the free header he missed between the Everton posts a few days before an example of the latter. Sadly for us those misses have added up. If our main striker's chance conversion rate was the same level as Costa's, the same as Van Persie's in 2012/13, we'd be fighting for our 21st title right now.

Good read, I think another problem in this regard is Pogba with 136 shots contributing a rather pathetic 10 goals in all competitions. (whoscored)

 

[RedMaestro]

I've not checked the stats for the forwards you've quoted but for Costa and Kane, because they play for the two teams fighting for the title and that's what United should be doing.

While I don't think Vardy would've changed our season, based on Costa and Kane's output, you may well have a point that Ibra's relatively low conversion rate is the reason we're not in the title race. Ibra has scored 17 Premier League goals from 115 shots (link). That rounds to a chance conversion rate of 15 per cent as you say. By comparison Diego Costa has 17 goals from 93 shots, which rounds to a chance conversion rate of 18 per cent (link). Harry Kane has 20 goals from 76 shots, which rounds to a chance conversion rate of 26 per cent (link).

Its not just about shots either, its the type of shots Ibra's missing that's been an issue too. In the league this season Zlatan has missed 18 'Big Chances' (chances that you'd reasonably expect a player to score). That is double the 9 Big Chances Kane has missed, and nearly double the 10 Big Chances Costa has missed.

The last time we won the title Robin Van Persie scored 26 Premier League goals from 141 shots, a chance conversion rate that rounds to 18 per cent (link). As Costa and Kane are showing, that 18 per cent is the benchmark for a successful title chase.

Zlatan has been an amazing player for us, the scorer of some superb goals. Yet, he has a tendency to bury the sublime and miss the ridiculous. His opener against Sunderland an example of the former, the free header he missed between the Everton posts a few days before an example of the latter. Sadly for us those misses have added up. If our main striker's chance conversion rate was the same level as Costa's, the same as Van Persie's in 2012/13, we'd be fighting for our 21st title right now.

Van Persie was on the top the 'Big Chances Missed' ranking - 23.

Last season the 'Big Chances Missed' number for Vardy was 22, Kane and Lukaku had 18.

 

[RedMaestro]

Just curious, why shouldn't Ibra score a stupid amount League goals? For the sake of argument, say he'd missed the same number of big chances Costa has he'd have 25 league goals. This is a striker that scored 50 times last season.

I agree our side as a whole has been pathetic in front of goal, but every successful team has a main striker who supplies most their goals. For Chelsea and Spurs its Costa and Kane. For us it's Zlatan. That's why I used them as points for comparison.

The top 7 goalscorers in each team looks like this right now:

Chelsea currently 1st this season:
Costa - 17 goals (30 apps)
Hazard - 14 goals (30 apps)
Pedro - 7 goals (29 apps)
Willian - 6 goals (28 apps)

4 players = 44 goals

Spurs currently 2nd this season:
Kane - 20 goals (24 apps)
Alli - 16 goals (31 apps)
Son - 12 goals (28 apps)
Eriksen - 7 goals (31 apps)

4 players = 55 goals

Liverpool currently 3rd this season:
Mane - 13 goals (27 apps)
Firmino - 11 goals (31 apps)
Coutinho - 9 goals (26 apps)
Lallana - 7 goals (27 apps)

4 players = 40 goals

Manchester City currently 4th this season:
Aguero - 17 goals (26 apps)
Sterling - 6 goals (29 apps)
Sane - 5 goals (20 apps)
Nolito - 4 goals (18 apps)

4 players = 32 goals

Manchester United currently 5th this season:
Ibrahimovic - 17 goals (28 apps)
Mata - 6 goals (22 apps)
Rashford - 5 goals (26 apps)
Mkhitaryan - 4 goals (18 apps)

4 players = 32 goals

Arsenal currently 6th this season:
Sanchez - 19 goals (31 apps)
Walcott - 10 goals (24 apps)
Giroud - 9 goals (23 apps)
Ozil - 7 goals (26 apps)

4 players = 45 goals

Everton currently 7th this season:
Lukaku - 24 goals (32 apps)
Barkley - 4 goals (31 apps)
Coleman - 4 goals (26 apps)
Mirallas - 4 goals (30 apps)

4 players = 36 goals

 

[#07]

The top 7 goalscorers in each team looks like this right now:

Chelsea currently 1st this season:
Costa - 17 goals (30 apps)
Hazard - 14 goals (30 apps)
Pedro - 7 goals (29 apps)
Willian - 6 goals (28 apps)

4 players = 44 goals

Spurs currently 2nd this season:
Kane - 20 goals (24 apps)
Alli - 16 goals (31 apps)
Son - 12 goals (28 apps)
Eriksen - 7 goals (31 apps)

4 players = 55 goals

Liverpool currently 3rd this season:
Mane - 13 goals (27 apps)
Firmino - 11 goals (31 apps)
Coutinho - 9 goals (26 apps)
Lallana - 7 goals (27 apps)

4 players = 40 goals

Manchester City currently 4th this season:
Aguero - 17 goals (26 apps)
Sterling - 6 goals (29 apps)
Sane - 5 goals (20 apps)
Nolito - 4 goals (18 apps)

4 players = 32 goals

Manchester United currently 5th this season:
Ibrahimovic - 17 goals (28 apps)
Mata - 6 goals (22 apps)
Rashford - 5 goals (26 apps)
Mkhitaryan - 4 goals (18 apps)

4 players = 32 goals

Arsenal currently 6th this season:
Sanchez - 19 goals (31 apps)
Walcott - 10 goals (24 apps)
Giroud - 9 goals (23 apps)
Ozil - 7 goals (26 apps)

4 players = 45 goals

Everton currently 7th this season:
Lukaku - 24 goals (32 apps)
Barkley - 4 goals (31 apps)
Coleman - 4 goals (26 apps)
Mirallas - 4 goals (30 apps)

4 players = 36 goals

This does not contradict the idea that most teams have a key striker who supplies most their goals.

Among those teams only Liverpool have a top scorer who hasn't played at #9 for them this season. Even Sanchez has spent a good deal of the season playing through the middle.

Van Persie was on the top the 'Big Chances Missed' ranking - 23.

Last season the 'Big Chances Missed' number for Vardy was 22, Kane and Lukaku had 18.

Yes, and there are seven league games for us left to play. Its very conceivable, based on Ibra's chance conversion rate, that he will finish the season with a higher big chances missed number than any of those strikers. I mean, he's already missed the same amount of Big Chances as Kane and Lukaku did in the entirety of the last league season.

Good read, I think another problem in this regard is Pogba with 136 shots contributing a rather pathetic 10 goals in all competitions. (whoscored)

That is worse than I thought.

 

[RedMaestro]

Yes, and there are seven league games for us left to play. Its very conceivable, based on Ibra's chance conversion rate, that he will finish the season with a higher big chances missed number than any of those strikers. I mean, he's already missed the same amount of Big Chances as Kane and Lukaku did in the entirety of the last league season.

Well, you can't be sure how his stats are going to be in the last 7 games. He could get 10 more chances missed, but he could also stay at his current 18, which won't be that bad if you'll compare it with others.

I'm still a bit more 'forgiving' since it's his first season in a new league and we're comparing him with players that are used to the league. If he stays next season, that's when I'm going to be really critical because there won't be anything to 'blame' on.

Besides, it's not good to focus on stats only. They aren't playing the same way, they aren't playing in the same team or in the the same tactics. As long as he scores and the others also keep missing, I don't think we should be too critical. But I'd be really upset if he had these high numbers with misses if the others were better - Mkhitaryan, Martial, Rashford etc. It would be 'easier to blame' him for the poor results, but now we can't now if 5 more goals would have helped. Sure if you pick the goals, you can choose the 1-1 games.

Does anyone have these stats, 'Big Chances Missed' and 'Created Chances' for the other top leagues, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A? Would be interesting to see how much the other players miss.

 

[Eriku]

I like how RvP and Costa's 18 per cent conversion rate is the minimum standard, and that Zlatan's 15 per cent is just not good enough.

Stat madness taken to another level. Especially when you take into account his assists, DESPITE having teed up some massive chances that ought to have been goals.

 

[Born2Lose]

I like how RvP and Costa's 18 per cent conversion rate is the minimum standard, and that Zlatan's 15 per cent is just not good enough.

Stat madness taken to another level. Especially when you take into account his assists, DESPITE having teed up some massive chances that ought to have been goals.

In a sense he's his own worst enemy, the overt self embellishment of his own talent means he'll always be open to criticism whether fair or not.

I saw a quote from him last week about the EL now being the CL because he's in it, the last stat I can find for him shows he's scored 7 goals in 36 CL Knockout games.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...rahimovic-poor-knock-out-record-a6877176.html

I think if he was a little more modest he'd be a lot more popular. The problem is I suspect the sound bites are more marketing than motivation.

 

[RedMaestro]

In a sense he's his own worst enemy, the overt self embellishment of his own talent means he'll always be open to criticism whether fair or not.

I saw a quote from him last week about the EL now being the CL because he's in it, the last stat I can find for him shows he's scored 7 goals in 36 CL Knockout games.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...rahimovic-poor-knock-out-record-a6877176.html

It really gets annoying sometimes with his style of talking. He's always loved Muhammad Ali so it's no surprise that he tries to do something similar. I really like that he doesn't take interviews seriously but sometimes he exaggerates too much. You just have to take the bad with the good.

I don't like those CL stats. The teams haven't all been that strong. Ajax was always going to have it difficult. Milan wasn't that good. PSG always faced Barcelona so they never had any 'luck'. His 'real chance' of winning was when he played for Juventus, but he wasn't at his peak then to contribute at the highest level - and the year he was at Barcelona, but should he get the blame for the teams failure? The Inter team wasn't that strong either - the next year when they won, 5-6 top players replaced 1 Ibrahimovic. When he played for the 'not so strong' teams the opponents just had to take care of Ibrahimovic who was the only threat.

I really don't think he's as bad as some might think in the CL. Don't think teams like Bayern Munich or Real Madrid would get worse if he played for them the years they won the CL.

 

[Ban]

In a sense he's his own worst enemy, the overt self embellishment of his own talent means he'll always be open to criticism whether fair or not.

I saw a quote from him last week about the EL now being the CL because he's in it, the last stat I can find for him shows he's scored 7 goals in 36 CL Knockout games.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...rahimovic-poor-knock-out-record-a6877176.html

I think if he was a little more modest he'd be a lot more popular. The problem is I suspect the sound bites are more marketing than motivation.

You know that most of the time he's joking that way, right?

 

[Robertd0803]

Think people are over complicating things.

He didn't play because 1)being rested for Europe League game , and 2) Jose was convinced of Rashford ability to tear their defense after the FA cup and decided to go with the same approach.

He may leave but him not playing this match is definitely not an indicator to it.

Better to rest him,too, against Arsenal and Spurs to be ready for the Europe League semi-finals if we reached it.

Exactly.

 

[Fracture90]

I like how RvP and Costa's 18 per cent conversion rate is the minimum standard, and that Zlatan's 15 per cent is just not good enough.

Stat madness taken to another level. Especially when you take into account his assists, DESPITE having teed up some massive chances that ought to have been goals.

I believe the best way to settle this is to have a compilation video of big chances missed by both RvP and Zlatan and do a research how they have affected the final outcome of the game.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Shoutout to @RedMaestro here, we may not see eye to eye and we may have differing opinions but that was some hardcore data rationalizing and I can respect that. Nice work.

 

[DatGuyRich]

Hindering us once again. Can't counter with him up top because he's too slow. Just seems to be getting in the way

 

[dirkey]

Rubbish first half. I fully expect him to bag 2 in the second though.

 

[All 3 United]

Complete waste of space again. He has nullified our attack.