Agree
Its like when we sold RVN to Real and went with Saha we were a lot more fluid and direct in attack, well it also helped having a prime Ronaldo and Rooney too.
10
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 46
- Goals
- 28
- Assists
- 9
- Yellow cards
- 8
- Status
Its like when we sold RVN to Real and went with Saha we were a lot more fluid and direct in attack, well it also helped having a prime Ronaldo and Rooney too.
Well the problem in my opinion isn't the pace. It's that they tend to "lean" on him too much. It goes well against normal opponents, but when you're facing the absolute top clubs, then you need very special tactics to win. And Blanc was lousy as a "game coach", always making wrong decisions, with line ups and subs during games. Emery on the other hand has won Europa League, three times in a row...
Yes, speed has never been one of his best features. If he would have had speed like for instance Ronaldo, then I'm almost sure he would have won a couple of Ballon d'Or's. Think about it, he has the strength and vision - he would be invincible if he also had the right speed...
As I said before I wasn't using the stats alone to make a point. The stats back up what any unbiased fan who has seen every United game this season would or should tell you.
Zlatan is not clinical. Anyone who argues his finishing isn't a clear weakness is being disingenuous. They may argue his poor finishing is more than mitigated by his chance creation. They may argue that his poor finishing is mitigated by his bullying of defenders. They may argue that his poor finishing is mitigated by his ability to lead the line as a sole striker. They may argue that if others' finishing weren't also poor, then his poor finishing would be less of a problem.
To varying degrees all would be valid opinioms or arguments. However can we at least first admit the obvious: he's been a poor finisher.
Absolutely. I expected Zlatan to come here and be clinical and score against the small teams even if the performances weren't great. He's gotten 20 goals because we just create loads of chances. Were he even slightly clinical, he'd easily be close to 30 right now. There have been so many games where he should have had atleast 2 or 3 more goals than he scored. No a striker can't score every chance he gets but when a striker of the pedigree of Zlatan is presented with the sitters he gets, you'd expect him to score.
I'd love to see how many goals prime RvP would be on right now in this team. Honestly think it would be over 30 already. Zlatan has still been good overall though, doubt Rooney or Rashford would have scored more or been as effective in link up play.
I do seem to remember one of the french posters telling us he misses a lot of chances before he came here.
I know; I don't get it. Some people just see it differently I guess?
Cheers mate!
Exactly what I was saying except you left out how important he is for us defending corners and free kicks!
And now he's come out and explained the "method to his madness" and why he dropped a little deeper for the Watford match. He's a class act!
I've never understood why he gets hate for dropping deep. They are professionally coached footballers. It's patently obvious it must be part of a strategy or tactic. Whether you feel it's not right or not working, the derision shouldn't be laid on the player.
That it is bizarre and what he said below is correct. There is no real need to go any further than that I made a claim and he agreed.
It is just further dragging the thread off-topic and it wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to point out that people who want to have a discussion should be free to discuss how they feel without being ridiculed with hyperbolic histrionics.
This complaint gets made about literally every striker we've had since I can remember. Team not creating enough chances? Striker x is dropping too deep.
Zlatan has also been instrumental in us creating loads of chances though. He has helped transform our attacking game completely and we definitely wouldn't be the same if it was Rooney/Martial/Rashford leading the line for us.
It could be that.
But then again the likes of Rooney is well known to drop deep even though his coaching staff didn't want him to do that.
It is not unusual for managers to let their 'star' players have some freedom.
Jesus Christ. The last few pages here are an absolute horror show.
Champagne problems guys.
Rooney is out of the side. Miki and Martial have/are playing their way into form. Our midfield is finally getting settled.
The ONE constant of the entire season in terms of our attack is Ibra. He's been head and shoulders our best forward player from his debut to now. He's allowed us to change how we play, mess around with personnel constantly and he's shown up in every single game. He's our top goal scorer and is playing as well as anyone could have possibly hoped for.
He's missed a few chances of course but all strikers do. Ibra has been great all year. Couldn't be happier.
Champagne problems guys.
Rooney is out of the side. Miki and Martial have/are playing their way into form. Our midfield is finally getting settled.
The ONE constant of the entire season in terms of our attack is Ibra. He's been head and shoulders our best forward player from his debut to now. He's allowed us to change how we play, mess around with personnel constantly and he's shown up in every single game. He's our top goal scorer and is playing as well as anyone could have possibly hoped for.
He's missed a few chances of course but all strikers do. Ibra has been great all year. Couldn't be happier.
PSG beat a fading Barca team and suddenly Zlaton is rubbish ..unreal this was one result that means nothing to us ..Look at PSGs league form this season and tell me how much better they are without Zlaton
You showed the stats and said he's the worst finnisher in the league. So ok, you have watched all United games and you think he has missed a lot of sitters and good chances. What about the other players in your stats? Have you watched all their games to compare to Zlatan?
It's pointless to debate with people, that label random chances as sitters. There's never going to be an end to that debate since it's difficult to prove.
I haven't said he is clinical, but does that mean he's a poor finnisher, is Ronaldo a poor finnisher? You will find in my previous posts I have argued exactly what you describe. That his other strengths make up for it, and that is exactly why he has been one of the worlds top strikers for ages. And why it's important to have him on for the full 90 min.
And there's what others have said about him being the reason why some of those chances are created.
I'd love to see how many goals a prime RvP would score if he replaced Zlatan in every team the last 10 years. In Inter, Milan, Barca and Psg. He wouldn't be close. And if you count assists too, well then he would be thrilled if he came up with half of what Zlatan did.
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Disagree. Prime RvP was every bit as good as prime Ibra and if by some miracle he stayed fit he'd have scored just as many.
Van Persie missed many easy chances and in his last season at ManUtd he looked so weak physically.
And if we turned it around and replaced RvP with a prime Zlatan in Arsenal. That's when it gets really scary. Especially if you're a United fan.
Leaves Inter, they win the CL. Leaves PSG and they look great in the CL. His fantastic stats are partly due to the fact that the attacking play of the whole team revolves around him. No team in England has created more chances for their main striker than United. And no (main) striker has missed more big chances. Making Zlatan the main figure in a big team works well against smallish teams but not in the CL knock-out stages. Because the attack becomes predictable. And it doesn't seem to work particularly well vs the top teams in the EPL either. Big games vs City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs are comming, hope he will prove his critics wrong. So far United are the worst team in the games vs the other top 6 teams. And have the most difficult fixture list (away games vs 3 of the direct rivals for top 4).
I've watched him play all season and knew he was missing a hell of a lot of simple chances. I took that opinion and instead of just saying "he's missing a lot of easy chances", I looked at all the statistics. All of these statistics backed up my hypothesis - he's missing a hell of a lot of chances.
The amount of "big chances" he misses. The amount of shots inside the area he misses. The amount of shots outside the area he misses.The amount of shots it takes him to score. The amount of on target shots it takes him to score. All suggest what any layman can see whilst watching our matches - that his finishing has been very poor. I can't imagine anyone ever watching Ronaldo and thinking "bloody hell he misses a ton of simple chances", so this is a deliberate misdirection.
Lets discount the shots from outside the area as these tend to be more difficult shots that are less likely to be scored from and focus on non-penalties from inside the area:
Alli - 11 goals from 34 shots - 32.5%
Lukaku - 15 goals from 46 shots - 32.5%
Kane - 10 goals from 34 shots - 29.5%
Mane - 11 goals from 43 shots - 25.5%
Sanchez - 13 goals from 54 shots - 24%
Costa - 13 goals from 55 shots - 23.5%
Hazard - 7 goals from 33 shots - 21%
Defoe - 9 goals from 44 shots - 20.5%
Ibrahimovich - 11 goals from 71 shots - 15.5%
Aguero - 7 goals from 56 shots - 12.5%
As you can see these statistics look even worse. Essentially when Ibrahimovich takes a shot from inside the area he's less than half as likely to score vs Alli/Lukaku and if the latter two players had taken 71 shots from inside the area they'd have scored 12 more goals.
Therefore the only statistical counter argument against Ibrahimovich being a very poor finisher is saying that he regularly attempts shots from inside the box that he's ridiculously unlikely to score from. Is this your assertion? If so maybe we have a bigger problem - a player that panics when he's in the box and attempts numerous shots that have little or no chance of going in.
Zlatan is the king.
And I say that, having recently bumped into Eric Cantona carrrying pizzas in the streets of Lisbon.
And I say that, having recently bumped into Eric Cantona carrrying pizzas in the streets of Lisbon.
He scores 20 goals but gets so much criticism about his... scoring. Bizarre.
One good game by PSG and suddenly Ibra is shite...
One good game by PSG and suddenly Ibra is shite...
It's the Ibrahimovic thread.
If you need evidence of Martial, Lingard, Mkhi and Mata being criticised go to their threads.
I never said that all the posts blaiming Zlatan were from this thread, mainly because they weren't.
I also never said that others weren't being blamed.
You wanted quotes from people only blaming Zlatan, I told you I've read tons of them and replied to many. That's it.
The fact that you assume that the people blaming him would blame others at other times and that other players are also being critizised in general have nothing to do with that.
Ok then it's bizzare, if you say so. I understand that it's a sensitive subject for some who might feel this way, so let's dropp it.
What he said below is true for pretty much every player. There's also a few who always criticize no matter what he does.
Seriously, when I play FIFA I just make sure that I push the directional pad towards the side that the GK isn't covering and press the Shoot button with the right duration. I basically almost always score.
I just don't know why Zlatan can't be like that. I mean he's got high stats, doesn't he? It's almost like he is a fraud because he misses sitters.
I just don't know why Zlatan can't be like that. I mean he's got high stats, doesn't he? It's almost like he is a fraud because he misses sitters.
He creates lots of chances plus he creates lots of spaces for the wings to find good positions.
He's in the right place all time and all the goals we are scoring, somehow he is always involved.
He's in the right place all time and all the goals we are scoring, somehow he is always involved.
But you haven't watched all the others you have in your stats. Those variables you mention are a very small percentage of everything that should be considered. It's pretty much impossible to accurately prove anything from these kind of stats.
Does a shot from inside the area mean it's a better chance than outside? Not necessarily. For example, a shot an inch from the box vs one two inches further ahead inside the area, no difference. What about defenders standing in the way? Surely a chance from outside the box is better with no one in the way vs one closer to goal with 2-3 defenders standing infront. Then there's the question of what is the level of the defense you're playing against, the GK. Time afforded, angle, height, curve and speed of the cross coming toward you. Seriously, I could go on all day and still find more factors that should be taken into consideration. Some of these things are impossible to judge. An example being the header he had against Liverpool that people labeled as a sitter.
You could estimate how good a chance is, which is what these stat sites do, but it is to subjective to really be established as a definitive conclusion as true.
Having said all this, I do agree he isn't clinical. But he get's himself in good postions to create chances, thus taking more shots. I can't say anything about the others since I havent watched them much. But I do think some are trying to make out Zlatans chances as better than they actually are.
A player that panics in the box only to take difficult shots?
Does Ronaldo do that too, since the shots he takes aren't always easy? Real Madrid must have a really big problem there.Actually, I shouldn't be laughing since some of the bicycle kicks, volleys and kung fu shots really are difficult to score from. But I wouldn't say he panics, just that he tends to take more difficult shots at times.
But you haven't watched all the others you have in your stats. Those variables you mention are a very small percentage of everything that should be considered. It's pretty much impossible to accurately prove anything from these kind of stats.
Does a shot from inside the area mean it's a better chance than outside? Not necessarily. For example, a shot an inch from the box vs one two inches further ahead inside the area, no difference. What about defenders standing in the way? Surely a chance from outside the box is better with no one in the way vs one closer to goal with 2-3 defenders standing infront. Then there's the question of what is the level of the defense you're playing against, the GK. Time afforded, angle, height, curve and speed of the cross coming toward you. Seriously, I could go on all day and still find more factors that should be taken into consideration. Some of these things are impossible to judge. An example being the header he had against Liverpool that people labeled as a sitter.
You could estimate how good a chance is, which is what these stat sites do, but it is to subjective to really be established as a definitive conclusion as true.
Having said all this, I do agree he isn't clinical. But he get's himself in good postions to create chances, thus taking more shots. I can't say anything about the others since I havent watched them much. But I do think some are trying to make out Zlatans chances as better than they actually are.
A player that panics in the box only to take difficult shots?
Actually, I shouldn't be laughing since some of the bicycle kicks, volleys and kung fu shots really are difficult to score from. But I wouldn't say he panics, just that he tends to take more difficult shots at times.
No-one is saying that the stats are infallible and should be used without any context. I've said several times that merely watching him play shows that he's missing far more chances that he should. The stats only serve to back up this argument.
I don't need to watch every other minute of every single other player. I've watched Zlatan and compared to any quality striker I've seen in my 20 years watching Football; he's missing far too many chances. You are taking the stats I've used to illustrate what I've seen and are being deliberately obtuse. Of course the stats don't show where players are, whether they are an inch inside the box or angles, heights, curves etc. However when watching him my opinion does take all these things into account. If he'd scored 15 great chances and missed 100 almost impossible ones that no other good striker would score, I wouldn't have checked the stats in the first place and this thread wouldn't even suggest he's a poor finisher and that it's costing us.
- Do you disagree with me and feel that he is scoring a perfectly acceptable amount of the chances he has? If yes;
- Do you believe that every other striker has had much more simple chances which makes Zlatan's hit rate look worse, as he's taking on much harder chances than they are? If yes;
- Do you believe that Zlatan should be taking on a disproportionate amount of these very difficult shots
I agree he isn't clinical. And I also agree with the fact he has missed many chances this season. What I don't agree with is people labeling chances as sitters or easy when imo there have been way less of the easy ones as being portrayed. If you read the thread, you will find many agree to that being the case.
I have told you already that I haven't watched the other players much so I can't compare them with Zlatan. I have no idea how difficult their chances have been. You are the one claiming your stats show he is the worst finisher in the league. Maybe he is, I don't know. In my exchange with you I have largely tried to explain why stats like that are useless and can't be used as evidence. I haven't said others have missed easier chances, just that it's possible. You have to watch to see.
Regarding the bolded. The stats you showed doesn't have anything to do with players you have watched for the last twenty years. Maybe try watching the players you are comparing him to.
Have you thought about him having that many chances as a positive?
He's still amongst the top scorers in the league and if it had been someone else, maybe some of those chances hadn't existed. Or maybe we are the best team in the league, and if we had a clinical striker we'd be up there with Chelsea. Assuming that clinical striker would be getting into as many positions to score as Zlatan. Which isn't very likely.
Why is it unlikely that another top striker wouldn't get in as many goalscoring positions as Ibrahimovic?
Is Ibra the best in the world at getting into positions to score or something?
Didn't say he's the best in the world but he's very experienced, and that comes with experience. Also, we're comparing PL strikers here, not from the whole world. The fact he has so many shots does indicate he is very good at it, better than the other top strikers in the league. Or maybe we just have the most creative team in the league and Zlatan has nothing to do with it. And Harry Kane would have us top of the league.
My only point was that he's missing too many easy chances. I posted stats that also objectively suggest this to be the case. I didn't say he was the worst finisher in the league. I merely said that he's been a poor finisher and the stats suggest he's missing more chances than his peers.
I also said that I'm happy to have a discussion that he's doing enough to compensate for his missed chances. I personally think he does bring other things to the team which are a positive over his peers, but on balance his 6.2 forum rating is correct. If he'd put away maybe 5 more somewhat simple chances, winning us another maybe 6 points, that rating would be very close to 7/10 which would be the best in our squad.
I don't think we're the best team in the league, but I do feel overall we're second behind Chelsea (creatively and defensively combined) and the 4 points and 5 goal difference between us and City are down to the chances Zlatan has missed. He is by no means alone though. If our finishing was "normal" this season we'd still be in the title race, albeit still a few points behind Chelsea.
Over the last few pages you brought Ronaldo into the discussion, but now it's only PL players ok.
Is he in your opinion the best in the Premier league at getting into goal scoring positions then?
And if so how did you come to this conclusion?
Possibly mate but it's also possible that because he plays for a team which dominates most of the games they play, which also creates a lot of chances and directs the majority of its play through him. And he decides to shoot more often than most other strikers.
I think he is, just as Andrew Cole used to be. You could guarantee Cole would get 3-4 chances per game, when the likes of Ole started instead it was blindingly obvious that they just didn't get into as many good positions as him.
To say Zlatan isn't incredible at getting into goalscoring positions is denying your own eyesight and all of these stats a load of you keep posting.
Isn't that exactly the same for Kane, and in a more attacking team? Yet the stats tell you he simply doesn't get into as many good positions as Zlatan.
So that same stats that are useless for determining which striker is the better finisher are perfectly fine to use to determine which striker gets into the best goalscoring positions more often, interesting.
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