Perhaps that would be best.
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- Thread starter Stobzilla
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Agreed. Now this will be annoying and probably a lot of work but could we do it retrospectively for the ball-playing and stoppers and then amend the lists? Then maybe ask voters to amend their lists over a 24hr period or so.
If we are going to do this, I think it best we try and do it as accurately as possible
Pretty obvious that lumping sweepers in with ball-playing CB's would cause a ripple effect and misfits in one or the other list.
I was going to put Maldini in, but then thought it sort of fits, sort of doesn't.
Oh, props to anyone including Gamarra! 
To be honest I might add Nesta/Maldini/etc in if that’s the consensus to include them.
Nesta made it pretty high on the ball-playing list and only 1 voter didn't include him, so I'd rather scratch him from the stoppers list altogether.
As he removes him from his own list to add Maldini.Oh, props to anyone including Gamarra!
Maldini, Nesta, Mcgrath and even Figueroa in Stoppers list?
Well to me Figueroa is the most complete CB, considering his frame and also ability on the ball. Since Nesta is in the stoppers list can’t see a reason why he shouldn’t be there.
Why did you put Rikjaard in as a stopper? My main memory of him at CB was at Ajax when he was a CB/DM hybrid, something that would more readily fit into a ball-playing CB
I think his peak as a center back was for Netherlands in 1988. But they were both (with Koeman) playmakers from the back & regularly joined the attack. Although Rijkaard was the one mostly responsible for the actual defending, obviously.
Blind was the Sweeper and Rijkaard mostly had defensive duties iirc.
When I think of Rijkaard as CB his all action physical style is what comes to mind first, not the playmaking from deep.
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Imo neither should be here. Ball playing pretty much means solid defender in addition to good on ball. There would be overlaps which we can avoid.
If Figueroa isn't a sweeper, I don't know who is.
I think certain players should be removed and certain should be made clear to be considered for adding as Synco said.
This is a pointless exercise otherwise.
Imagine Maldini at 10 and Figueroa at 20.
Whoever sees it will call it laughable.
This is a pointless exercise otherwise.
Imagine Maldini at 10 and Figueroa at 20.
Whoever sees it will call it laughable.
I would recommend that the person who didn't add him be asked to reconsider. Wouldn't want his ranking to be dropped because of 1 person. Or extra points be added for Nesta for 1 person (maybe average of everyone's score)
McGrath is an interesting one though. I’d definitely put him as a stopper, although as a very complete one.
Figueroa gets in because of his build, I guess, because he is definitely can perform as a stopper... but he shouldn’t get in in my opinion, his place is in the previous list.
Figueroa gets in because of his build, I guess, because he is definitely can perform as a stopper... but he shouldn’t get in in my opinion, his place is in the previous list.
Yeah if we remove Nesta due to that I’d agree. But seen him there and couple of others can’t see a reason why Figueroa isn’t there. He is a top man marker as well. Think Shesternyov also featured on both lists as well?
Maldini is also one.
Shesternyov is just not ball-playing in my book, so I’d rather see him in the second list. Same goes for Picchi, even though both were clearly sweepers.
Agreed. Picchi just sat deep and was the last line of defence. On the ball he just punted it forward
Yeah agreed. Defensive function is more relevant here than on-the-ball contribution.
Yeah we should probably agree who gets in and who isn’t eligible in here, and then tag the relevant voters.
Yeah that's a problem with the two categories. For me, old school sweeper types are neither "ball playing defenders" which is a fairly modern invention of the last 10-20 years (with a couple rare exceptions like Koeman) nor stoppers so the way the two lists are sorted is bound to lead to confusing votes in the end
Sweeper or Stopper, in both lists defensive contribution is taken for granted. It's the style of how they do it or what they add more separates the list. It'd not be fair to say Picchi has more (or less) defensive contribution than Kohler or Baresi.
The catenaccio system was built on man marking. Guarneri and Burgnich were the man markers and tacklers. Picchi was not really known for his physicality or crunching tackles. His role was not to man-mark anyone either. He was a classy defender who relied more on anticipation, positioning and reading of the game plus he was the guy who usually started the attacks from the back.
In modern terms, his play was more like Busquets, I reckon but from behind the defence rather than midfield...first person to start recycling possession to his more creative colleagues.
In the last game I saw from each player, Rijkaard (1988) was much more of a playmaker than Figueroa (1974). But that's just a very limited impression, of course.
ball-playing anything isnt a role in football.
When is the deadline for the stoppers ranking? Thanks
28th. Do say if you'll need some more time.
Surprised to see Bergomi in ball playing CB list. He was the literal definition of a stopper in my book and usually makes the football hardman lists.
Yeah, but to be fair there are even less obvious choices featuring. Santa Maria, for example. Bergomi at least was quite decent on the ball (the best out of the obvious Gentile/Burgnich comparisons) and played as a sweeper occasionally.
From earlier research Santamaria was a classic sweeper not a libero. I'd put him stylistically closer to Picchi than Baresi/Figueroa. He was the last man on the line and played the deepest as final line of defence. He was a big strong lad, but what made him special was the technical ability, positional and game reading intelligence and leadership.
Bergomi was known more for his tenacious style and a reputed man marker. He was no mug on the ball, but I'd still lean more towards stopper than a sweeper.
Yeah, I don't see that. He wasn't a sweeper, he was a stopper that took care of the opposing number 9; same as Billy Wright at the time. Sweepers are a 60's thing, an introduction of a changed man-marking system. That's why Picchi is usually named as the first one.
And Santamaria's technique was nothing special, I'd probably rate Bergomi higher in that department. Positioning, one-on-one skills, tackling, aerial game - yes, passing/ball-control? I haven't seen it.
Bergomi was definitely a stopper first, but he, as many versatile defenders, was able to play as a sweeper and did from time to time, especially closer to the end of his career.
....
11. Ronald Koeman. 192 points
11th? As a 'ball-playing defender'? If that doesn't epitomise why the two lists shouldn't have been mixed, I don't know what will.
11. Ronald Koeman. 192 points
11th? As a 'ball-playing defender'? If that doesn't epitomise why the two lists shouldn't have been mixed, I don't know what will.
Among all the liberos
Kaiser had Breitner Schwarzenbeck Vogts
Baresi had unmentionable resources around him
Scirea had Gentile, Cabrini, Collovati
Passarella had only Olguin, Tarantino and Galvan
Wonder what his reputation would have been with a better support cast.
No question his attacking output was better than anyone (Influence Kaiser wins, attacking oupt Passarella wins IMO)
Kaiser had Breitner Schwarzenbeck Vogts
Baresi had unmentionable resources around him
Scirea had Gentile, Cabrini, Collovati
Passarella had only Olguin, Tarantino and Galvan
Wonder what his reputation would have been with a better support cast.
No question his attacking output was better than anyone (Influence Kaiser wins, attacking oupt Passarella wins IMO)
Jesus
No mention of the 1994 final in Baresi write up.
@harms you better be ready to clean the puke off my laptop.