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How should we proceed with the midfielders thread?


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From memory and its mostly WC 66' i wouldnt call him a b2b....more like a DM with 2, 3 great runs that were well timed
Alright, then this would be even more in line with the impression I had of him as a libero. (I didn't watch him a lot before 1970, which was the last time when he played DM in the NT, afaik).

An impression I remember of his CM pairing with Overath is that they worked as a kind of playmaker tandem, each one covering when the other moved forward with the ball. (But it's years since I watched, and my memory is hazy in general.)

So would you say DM or DLP for his midfielder days?
 
There were no DLP then as most footballers were morons in that era so your average or even "good" player like Haller played like a headless chickens so whenever they got the ball they would just put their head down and go on a run. Id say DM or a even a complete CM, yeah reckon that would be the best description.
 
Bozsik, Didi, Blanchflower, Coluna and even early Gerson....

Bozsik agreed, others not so much. Didi was closer to a 10 then to a DM, Coluna wasnt a DLP, Gerson id say was more of a classic midfield playmaker and Blancflower i dont know, only watched one match compilation of him but his passing didnt look special.

But what i meant is that is difficult or almost impossible to play as DLP if you dont have a proper support of your teammates...you give the right pass and where a modern/smart player would give it back to you or circle the ball around most in that era would either make a direct pass or just went on a blind run. Was watching Kaiser and he really had 2 players to play with out of 9, Overath and Seeler. Was wondering how good he would be if he played in a modern team, reckon even his midfield version would be close to overall tier 1 of the GOATs.
 
Bozsik agreed, others not so much. Didi was closer to a 10 then to a DM, Coluna wasnt a DLP, Gerson id say was more of a classic midfield playmaker and Blancflower i dont know, only watched one match compilation of him but his passing didnt look special.

But what i meant is that is difficult or almost impossible to play as DLP if you dont have a proper support of your teammates...you give the right pass and where a modern/smart player would give it back to you or circle the ball around most in that era would either make a direct pass or just went on a blind run. Was watching Kaiser and he really had 2 players to play with out of 9, Overath and Seeler. Was wondering how good he would be if he played in a modern team, reckon even his midfield version would be close to overall tier 1 of the GOATs.
Yeah, agree with this overall assessment. Didi could play both deep and AM but if translated to modern game I'd probably have him in more advanced position than Pirlo or even Xavi.

Coluna was box to box, but attacking box to box player, more contributing in the attacking third rather than defensively, whilst he obviously wasn't shy of a tackle or putting his body to get to the ball.

I'd pin Beckenbauer as a box to box though. He made forward runs from midfield and accounted for many threats in attack, whilst obviously being quite mobile player. Wouldn't say he'd be a DM in the modern game like Desailly for example.
 
Can one of you lovely chaps randomize A, B, C, D and E with random.org, please? Thanks, we're trialing “Mobster Draft” this time around. :)
 
Can one of you lovely chaps randomize A, B, C, D and E with random.org, please? Thanks, we're trialing “Mobster Draft” this time around. :)
There were 5 items in your list. Here they are in random order:

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Timestamp: 2019-07-14 15:58:48 UTC

I'm feeling excluded :lol:
 
Check your inbox mate, but before that, ooh — can you randomize A, B, C, D, E and F? Grazie!
:)

There were 6 items in your list. Here they are in random order:

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  2. F
  3. E
  4. A
  5. D
  6. B
Timestamp: 2019-07-14 16:26:50 UTC
 
The inclusion of Carvalho in top 20 GOAT centerback. I honestly would even take van Dijk over Carvalho.
 
I'm actually pretty surprised Lucio has had so little appreciation. World Cup winner, CL winner and runner up in all three occasions where he put a very important shift in. He was also pretty consistent in Germany up to the point winning the treble with Inter.
 
I'm actually pretty surprised Lucio has had so little appreciation. World Cup winner, CL winner and runner up in all three occasions where he put a very important shift in. He was also pretty consistent in Germany up to the point winning the treble with Inter.
I couldn’t decide whether to put him in this or the other central defender category. There’s a case for both given his quality on the ball and inclination for forward runs, set against his dynamic stopper tendencies. His experience of playing alongside more obvious sweeper/covering types in Ramelow and Edmílson plonked him into the other category for me, but it’s not something I thought about a great deal. I think it was more a case of one of these modern defenders who could slip into either group.

Agree with you on his standing and the variety and totality of his CV between Leverkusen, Bayern, Inter and Brazil is mightily impressive.
 
I couldn’t decide whether to put him in this or the other central defender category. There’s a case for both given his quality on the ball and inclination for forward runs, set against his dynamic stopper tendencies. His experience of playing alongside more obvious sweeper/covering types in Ramelow and Edmílson plonked him into the other category for me, but it’s not something I thought about a great deal. I think it was more a case of one of these modern defenders who could slip into either group.

Agree with you on his standing and the variety and totality of his CV between Leverkusen, Bayern, Inter and Brazil is mightily impressive.

Yeah you do have a point here mate. He's like Nesta and Figueroa - wouldn't look out of place in either category and would be interesting to see the overlaps in both categories after the ball playing defenders is done.
 
I definitely rate Carvalho higher. A classy ball player and a top notch defender all through. I don't recall any weakness to his game. He'd be there in top lists of CBs between 2004-10.

Maybe just like Lucio, he worked in mysterious way. They both were world class but I just don't see them as top 20 of all time great. The likes of Ferrara has more claim, imho.
 
I definitely rate Carvalho higher. A classy ball player and a top notch defender all through. I don't recall any weakness to his game. He'd be there in top lists of CBs between 2004-10.

How dare you not include the 2003-04 season with Porto. Was in top 10 of Ballon Dor rankings immediately after that season.
 
Probably an highly unpopular opinion here, but I am shocked Neuer makes it to the top 5 goalkeepers of all time.

That is a huge delta in how I have seen him over the years and how most of the others seem to feel.
 
Probably an highly unpopular opinion here, but I am shocked Neuer makes it to the top 5 goalkeepers of all time.

That is a huge delta in how I have seen him over the years and how most of the others seem to feel.
I think it will make for a good discussion, especially since this is a player many people have watched extensively.
 
Probably an highly unpopular opinion here, but I am shocked Neuer makes it to the top 5 goalkeepers of all time.

That is a huge delta in how I have seen him over the years and how most of the others seem to feel.

I'd prefer not to see him in the top 3 personally but anywhere else in the Top 10 seems fine to me. He was obviously revolutionary in the whole sweeper-keeper thing but maybe that detracts from his brilliance in the more traditional aspects of goalkeeping. Match compilations strangely don't seem to capture the essence of a GK's display fully, but at the time I thought he was mind-blowing against us for Schalke despite conceding two goals in the final quarter of the match. Up to that point I just had a sinking feeling we weren't going to win as it was like watching peak Schmeichel in terms of his shot-stopping and general aura.



He was hugely praised for that performance too:

Guardian said:
Manuel Neuer's excellence in Schalke's 2-0 home defeat to Manchester United in the first leg of their Champions League semi-final is summed up in the headline used by the Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung: "Man Utd 0, Man Utd 2", they shout, picking up the 1 v 11 theme that was pretty common in the reporting of the match. "Wo war eigentlich der Rest von Schalke?" asked Bild – "where, exactly, were the rest of Schalke?"

Bild's front page is dominated once again by the build-up to Friday's royal wedding, but there's room in the corner for a brief mention of the game. "0-2! Schalke, bye-bye"," is the headline. "Only Neuer plays well against Man Utd," they say, noting that he spectacularly saved "sieben Großchancen".

Inside, they continue along similar lines. "Only one Schalke player was galactic against United, which was not enough," they write. "Manuel Neuer made sure that Schalke just lost 2-0 and not 7-0. Anyone who saw this gulf in class will not believe in a miracle at Old Trafford in the return leg. United have more than one foot in the final at Wembley. Our national coach, Joachim Löw, called Neuer "sensational" but excuse us, where were the rest of the Schalke players? Rarely has a team in the home leg of a Champions League semi-final been dominated as much. Schalke's key player in defence, Benedikt Höwedes, was absent with injury and was missing at every corner and every cross. His replacement, Joël Matip, was involved in both United goals."

"Neuer has outgrown Schalke," wrote the Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung. "This game proved to all the doubters and moaners – his decision to move to Bayern is logical, an important step for the best goalkeeper in the world ... The disappointment was deep, the sadness was great, but Schalke's fans were still proud of their team. Manchester was just a step too far."

In France, L'Equipe continued the Neuer v the rest theme. "It was one against 11, or near enough, Manuel Neuer against Manchester United," they write. "You can't see how the Germans will manage to reverse the direction of the wind next week at Old Trafford. Without Neuer, who was fantastic in the first half, Schalke 04 could have been known as Schalke 0-6, such was the difference between the teams."

If Neuer (with the possible exception of the injured Höwedes) was the only member of the team to emerge with great credit, Schalke's manager took the brunt of the criticism. "Ralf Rangnick probably thought about it too much," wrote L'Equipe. "He wanted to surprise, by starting with an unforeseen line-up, but he had the opposite effect. By profoundly altering the style of his team, he seemed to shackle them. One would have preferred to see a Schalke who were being themselves, pressing their opponents, throwing themselves at them, taking risks. It was never like that."

But in Italy, at least, writers looked past Schalke's frailties to recognise United's qualities. "United, you're deadly," trills the Gazzetta dello Sport on their front page, where they hail the "dirty tricks of the eternal Ryan Giggs". Their match report starts with "a sad thought: are we really this bad? Schalke, who humiliated Inter, champions of Italy, in the quarter-finals were second best from the first second to the last, at home. Let's just let it go."

"We must thank Sir Alex Ferguson for this joyous footballing machine, which verges on perfection," they continue. Cripes. "They've got it all: skill and physicality, individuality and teamwork, youth and experience. Schalke, who until this night had won all their home games in the Champions League, appeared to have been struck by a boxer two weight categories above them."

The Spanish press, as well as offering us a headline that surely cannot by quite as prophane as Google Translate thinks it is, appears a bit caught up in preparing for the other semi-final, unsurprisingly. Last night's game merits 10 words in small print at the bottom of Marca's front page (and one of those is "y"), nine at the bottom of Mundo Deportivo's and the same number off to the side of As's (and one of theirs is Raúl).

And off topic on the bolded part, it's hard to imagine a Utd team being decribed in those terms again right now :(
 
De Gea ranks 16th of all time great, makes a mockery of that list.
 
@GodShaveTheQueen
To approach the question from the other side: what is the general impression you have from Neuer, his abilities, his team tactical influence, his peak level?
 
De Gea ranks 16th of all time great, makes a mockery of that list.
I struggle to think of many keepers that performed at such incredible level domestically year after year. And he was quite good in Europe as well, although with that team he rarely got the chance to show it. His national team resume is horrific, but other than that...
 
I struggle to think of many keepers that performed at such incredible level domestically year after year. And he was quite good in Europe as well, although with that team he rarely got the chance to show it. His national team resume is horrific, but other than that...

I struggle to think that other then Premier League, others rate him that high. Madrid has shown interest, but it's more about his nationality. They couldn't bother to splash cash for a supposedly top 20 GOAT?

For me, he's like Alan Shearer of Gk. He prefers a king in non-challenging teams. At United, he could demand the highest paid Gk in the world, even though he just had a shite season.

But maybe it's just me getting pissed off with him with his contract saga.

Edit: Also enjoyed your writing, harms. Superb stuff there. Although I'd have 1. Kahn, 2. Schmeichel, 3. Buffon, 4. Lev Yashin myself. ;)
 
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I struggle to think that other then Premier League, others rate him that high.
This is not true, IMO, even though there's a tendency to retroactively downplay his greatness because he's going to through a rough stretch and his national team career can be picked apart. De Gea was present in each of the last four FIFPro Yearly squads (including the Starting XI), so he is rated on a global level by other professionals...
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This is not someone who is rated by just deluded United fans, or not rated outside of the Premier League.
They couldn't bother to splash cash for a supposedly top 20 GOAT?
This is not a suitable metric to judge David, though. They wanted David desperately but we were not willing sellers (and their cash was useless when we didn't want to let go), which is why they trained their sights on Courtois instead. And now that Zidane is back, they are unlikely to make massive bids again because he is generally fine with whatever goalkeeper he has and he wants to make Courtois the undisputed #1 (with Lunin as the #2 unless Keylor stays at the club in which case he former goes on loan, and Luca Zidane featuring somewhere in the squad).
 
This is not true, IMO, even though there's a tendency to retroactively downplay his greatness because he's going to through a rough stretch and his national team career can be picked apart. De Gea was present in each of the last four FIFPro Yearly squads (including the Starting XI), so he is rated on a global level by other professionals...

This is not someone who is rated by just deluded United fans, or not rated outside of the Premier League.

This is not a suitable metric to judge David, IMO. They wanted David desperately but we were not willing sellers (and their cash was useless when we didn't want to let go), which is why they trained their sights on Courtois instead. And now that Zidane is back, they are unlikely to make massive bids again because he is generally fine with whatever goalkeeper he has and now wants to make Courtois the undisputed #1 (with Lunin as the #2 unless Keylor stays at the club in which case he former goes on loan, and Luca Zidane featuring somewhere in the squad).

I'm sorry, but he only featured once at Best XI, and others on 2nd or 3rd best team? How is it equal to others rate him as GOAT or even best of this era?

And also we actually agreed to sell him to Madrid, bar the "fax machine". We didn't bother to extend his contracts until the last year of his. Twice.
 
De Gea ranks 16th of all time great, makes a mockery of that list.
There’s probably a slight United and age bias in there running through the list with Schmeichel 3rd, Van der Sar 9th and De Gea 16th. Age because it’s likely the majority of voters grew up exposed vividly to one of those three. Notwithstanding their quality and respecting the objectivity of the posters in here (who are far more neutral than other fan bases), I don’t think they collectively get quite as high on another club’s forum. Or more specifically with De Gea, his primarily domestic achievements are less likely to be recognised elsewhere. After all I think he’s the only keeper in the top 20 without a meaningful international career / performance series behind him. The next one of that ilk on the list is probably Southall.

Personally I’ve got a modern bias when it comes to this position and, redoing this vote in a few year’s time, would likely include a raft of post 2000 keepers.
 
I'm sorry, but he only featured once at Best XI, and others on 2nd or 3rd best team? How is it equal to others rate him as GOAT or even best of this era?
No one is rating him as GOAT or the absolute best of his era, though? He's mostly towards the fag end of lists (which are a bit murky), and even though I have not included David in my Top 20, he's not a whole lot worse than some of the names around him. For 2 or 3 years, he probably was the best in the world, despite playing behind a defense that is significantly worse than his opposition for the #1 spot — which loosely correlates with a Top 20 All-Time spot when you extrapolate the period by a factor of x20. For reference, Jan Oblak has featured in the FIFPro world squad only once (for the 5th team) and I wouldn't begrudge someone including him in the Top 15-20 spots if he is he best goalkeeper in the world for the coming year because he is building a nice record and is objectively not a whole lot worse than some of the other Top 16-20 picks.
And also we actually agreed to sell him to Madrid, bar the "fax machine". We didn't bother to extend his contracts until the last year of his. Twice.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, to be honest. Like, yes, United's judgement of not extending his contract ahead of time is definitely what we need to judge De Gea? Because this is the club that gives long term deals to the likes of Big Dunc Jones and Marcos Rojo and Jesse Lingard on sizeable wages — we're clearly the masters of extension, and our ability to secure contracts or not bothering with some is the ultimate barometer for greatness/crapness!
 
No one is rating him as GOAT or the absolute best of his era, though? He's in the latter half of lists (which are a bit murky), and even though I have not included David in my Top 20, he's not a whole lot worse than some of the names around him. For 2 or 3 years, he probably was the best in the world, despite playing behind a defense that is significantly worse than his opposition for the #1 spot — which loosely correlates with a Top 20 All-Time spot when you extrapolate the period by a factor of x20. For reference, Jan Oblak has featured in the World Squad only once (for the 5th team) and I wouldn't begrudge someone including him in the Top 15-20 spots if he is he best goalkeeper in the world for the coming year because he is building a nice record.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, to be honest. Like, yes, United's judgement of not extending his contract ahead of time is definitely what we need to judge De Gea? Because this is the club that gives long term deals to the likes of Big Dunc Jones and Marcos Rojo and Jesse Lingard on sizeable wages — we're clearly the masters of extension, and our ability to secure contracts is the ultimate barometer for greatness!

Yeh. Maybe it's just my bias that I'm expecting more from a Top 20 GOAT. I don't think extrapolation from CB can be used to measure greatness. Him being not dominating his box should count more.

Madrid as the only top club showing real interest, us not bother extending his contract twice until his last years, and him prioritizing money instead of greatness; there are indications but not sole reason.
 
There’s probably a slight United and age bias in there running through the list with Schmeichel 3rd, Van der Sar 9th and De Gea 16th. Age because it’s likely the majority of voters grew up exposed vividly to one of those three. Notwithstanding their quality and respecting the objectivity of the posters in here (who are far more neutral than other fan bases), I don’t think they collectively get quite as high on another club’s forum. Or more specifically with De Gea, his primarily domestic achievements are less likely to be recognised elsewhere. After all I think he’s the only keeper in the top 20 without a meaningful international career / performance series behind him. The next one of that ilk on the list is probably Southall.

Personally I’ve got a modern bias when it comes to this position and, redoing this vote in a few year’s time, would likely include a raft of post 2000 keepers.

I genuinely think Schmeichel worth at least top 5, but agreed that VdS and DDG are too high on the list. I'd even take Pagliuca over those later two, even though he didn't even make top 30 :D.

I just think that if we bother to make this Top 20 list, might as well make it with more thought. As I think these lists are worth the work, thus it should represent the Caf ratings in general. Putting VdS and DDG at 9th and 16th make the list looked unreliable, imho.
Which is a shame after so much work the like of harms, you, and others have been done through write up or good discussions.
 
Yeh. Maybe it's just my bias that I'm expecting more from a Top 20 GOAT. I don't think extrapolation from CB can be used to measure greatness. Him being not dominating his box should count more.
Fair, I would have qualms regarding his inclusion in the Top 20 as well — he does have a few inconvenient holes in his resumé (lack of success in senior international football and elite stages of the European Cup) or overall skill set (lack of commanding leadership and foresight on the ball), but this is a United forum and, at times, there will be some favoritism towards the home team. That being said, post-modern goalkeepers on the whole are undoubtedly (and objectively) better than older counterparts — that works in De Gea's favor, as does his domestic dominance (5 time League Goalkeeper of the Season).
Madrid as the only top club showing real interest, us not bother extending his contract twice until his last years, and him prioritizing money instead of greatness; there are indications but not sole reason.
From a historical perspective, goalkeepers are rarely on the move (or major transfer targets for elite teams), unless the current club is a willing seller or the player runs out of contract. And the teams that can afford him have good keepers of their own (or he doesn't suit their style of play), so the apparent lack of transfer interest is understandable, IMO. If you magically make every current goalkeeper a free agent and start a draft, De Gea will almost definitely be a Top 3 pick (I'm guessing with Juventus for some odd reason)! :)
 
Fair, I would have qualms regarding his inclusion in the Top 20 as well — he does have a few inconvenient holes in his resumé (lack of success in senior international football and elite stages of the European Cup) or overall skill set (lack of commanding leadership and foresight on the ball), but this is a United forum and, at times, there will be some favoritism towards the home team. That being said, post-modern goalkeepers on the whole are undoubtedly (and objectively) better than older counterparts — that works in De Gea's favor, as does his domestic dominance (5 time League Goalkeeper of the Season).
Well put, imo. That's my basic view on him as well, perhaps apart from some details in the description.
 
De Gea ranks 16th of all time great, makes a mockery of that list.
Personally I wouldn't put De Gea 16th, but it's no mockery to have him that high. Slight hometeam bias at best.

Just looking at more recent GKs (80s onwards) I don't think there is someone ranked behind him who HAS to be clearly ahead. Being just next to Zenga seems about right, they are quite comparable. Not necessary in the way they play/skill, but how their careers/achievments look like.
 
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Yeah. I have less issues with De Gea, but I think that van der Sar is slightly overrated in our final list. Although I myself put him at №11, which is not far off from his final 9th place. But then I'm also susceptible to the United bias.
 
Yeah. I have less issues with De Gea, but I think that van der Sar is slightly overrated in our final list. Although I myself put him at №11, which is not far off from his final 9th place. But then I'm also susceptible to the United bias.

I don't know man. I think we often forget his Ajax stint. He is the only goalkeeper to have won the UCL with two different clubs. While being an integral part of both, so can't really discount them as just team accolades. And both teams can claim to be in the top 5 club teams of the last 30 years. If anything, I feel he is a bit underrated outside the United circles.
 
Personally I wouldn't put De Gea 16th, but it's no mockery to have him that high. Slight hometeam bias at best.

Just looking at more recent GKs (80s onwards) I don't think there is someone ranked behind him who HAS to be clearly ahead. Being just next to Zenga seems about right, they are quite comparable. Not necessary in the way they play/skill, but how their careers/achievments look like.

That is exactly what came to my mind as well when I saw the list.
 
@BIG DUNK you forgot Rio or you dont have him in top 20? :nervous:
I had a sublist of modern complete centrebacks (which included Ferdinand), who are arguably better defenders than some on my list, but not better liberos than my list. That said, Rio, Hierro, Israel, Ferrara and Tresor probably completed my top 25 when I was cutting the names down to 20.

I had an inner-debate with Nesta’s position too. IMO, defensive ability top 5 alltime, but perhaps valued less in this list (but still high).
 
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