RedCafe's Top 20 (30) by Position | Please check out the last threadmark

How should we proceed with the midfielders thread?

  • A single megathread

    Votes: 11 22.9%

  • 2 threads for central midfielders and for number 10s

    Votes: 11 22.9%

  • 3 threads for DM and B2B, for playmakers and for number 10s

    Votes: 20 41.7%

  • 4 threads for defensive MF, for MF playmakers, for goalscoring CMs and for number 10s

    Votes: 1 2.1%

  • 4 threads for defensive MF, for B2B, for MF playmakers and for number 10s

    Votes: 14 29.2%
  • Total voters
    48
Beckenbauer is now in the B2B/DM list
Well, if you all want it, put him on your lists. It's a mess either way.

NOTE: Beckenbauer is now eligible in the B2B lists and he won't be eligible for playmakers. Please adjust your lists accordingly, I'll tag those who didn't before the thread closes.
 
Do people consider Lampard more Attacking Midfielder or B2B?
 
Great work on the midfielders list @harms and @Synco . The player write-ups are top-notch as usual. Just a small fact-check from the Ballack profile:

harms said:
Goals in the quarter and semi-finals, despite captaining one of Germany’s poorest sides in recent memory, gave his nation a sniff at their first trophy since unification – with an East German as captain
Click to expand...

You might be referring to World Cup only but Germany had already won Euro 96 since unification. I could have sworn East German Sammer was captain of that team too but it was actually Klinsmann.
 
Fortitude said:
@harms am I missing something here? Falcao?

Didn't wanna put it in the thread with your write ups.
Click to expand...
Discussed on page 22.

IMO he should be in both B2B and playmaker lists.
 
Fortitude said:
@harms am I missing something here? Falcao?

Didn't wanna put it in the thread with your write ups.
Click to expand...
Yeah, he's a tough one who can get into either category. Every simplification leads to those cases, sadly.
 
OK, cheers.

Thrown me to not see him in this list. Haven't read this thread in a while - need to go through it.
 
Fortitude said:
OK, cheers.

Thrown me to not see him in this list. Haven't read this thread in a while - need to go through it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's fair enough. Ideally I would probably include him in both lists, but that causes even more problems since a lot of voters doesn't want to include one player twice, and the votes get divided. Similar thing happened to Alessandro Nesta, who finished 7th in the ball-playing list and 6th in the stoppers list, which, obviously, doesn't show his true standing in the game.
 
harms said:
Yeah, that's fair enough. Ideally I would probably include him in both lists, but that causes even more problems since a lot of voters doesn't want to include one player twice, and the votes get divided. Similar thing happened to Alessandro Nesta, who finished 7th in the ball-playing list and 6th in the stoppers list, which, obviously, doesn't show his true standing in the game.
Click to expand...
It's a big problem for sure; having Nesta 7th or 6th in a list is farcical, but I guess that's the fallout from trying to determine the best place for him. I suppose it's better for Falcao to be in one list only if he would suffer the same fate.
 
Fortitude said:
It's a big problem for sure; having Nesta 7th or 6th in a list is farcical, but I guess that's the fallout from trying to determine the best place for him. I suppose it's better for Falcao to be in one list only if he would suffer the same fate.
Click to expand...

That's what we wanted to avoid. When this is over I think the consensus was to decide what category to put Nesta in and then re-vote for the CBs to get a better list.
 
Midfield playmakers & Number 10s vote
Okay, so the time has come to set up the next thread — now the one that's going to include midfield playmakers... but not the number 10s. I think we should discuss the definitions here before compiling a final list of nominations, as many of those would be quite questionable.

Remember, that there's going to be another category for forwards — so the likes of Rummenigge, Gullit & Rivaldo are probably going to be put there.

The list of box-to-box and defensive midfielders is below, no player that has featured there shouldn't be in our final lists for other categories:
TOTAL
1Matthäus740
2Rijkaard686
3Neeskens467
4Keane418
5Breitner380
6Redondo365
7Davids353
8Robson351
9Schweinsteiger351
10Beckenbauer346
11Tigana302
12Edwards294
13Desailly275
14Voronin268
15Vieira252
16Tardelli230
17Souness229
18Varela214
19Coluna210
20Makelele141
21Cerezo138
22Busquets107
23Netto100
24Gerrard94
25Seedorf90
26Pirri88
27Gascoigne84
28Stielike80
29Bremner77
30Lampard69
31Goncalves62
32Kante61
33Ballack52
34Effenberg49
35Lerby42
36Zito41
37Essien39
38Vidal39
39Szymaniak34
40Deschamps33
41Mackay30
42Dunga23
43Toure20
44Benetti19
45Rossi17
46Mendieta15
47Mauro Silva11
48Mascherano9
49Cambiasso8
50Bonhof7
51Cajkovski5
52Pluskal5
53Luis Fernandez4
54Meszöly4
55Clodoaldo3
56Hierro2
57Jansen2
58Carrick1

Midfield playmakers:
Josef Masopust
Jósef Bozsik
Didi
Paul Scholes
Andrea Pirlo
Xavi
Iniesta — clearly a more attacking midfielder, but never a number 10. Still, perhaps he should be put into the second category
Paulo Roberto Falcão
Willem van Hanegem
Luis Suárez Miramontes — he had essentially 2 world class peaks as both a number 10 and a midfield playmaker. Tough one.
Luka Modrić
Bernd Schuster
Gerson
Toni Kroos
Glenn Hoddle
Johnny Giles
Jim Baxter
Danny Blanchflower
Juan Sebastian Veron
Cesc Fabregas
Xabi Alonso
Zvonimir Boban
Robert Prosinečki



Number 10s:
Zinedine Zidane
Michel Platini
Zico
Diego Maradona
Pelé
Rivellino
Gianni Rivera
Sandro Mazzola
Wolfgang Overath
Gunter Netzer
Bobby Charlton
Juan Riquelme
Niels Liedholm
Alain Giresse
Ricardo Bochini
Socrates
Kazimierz Deyna
Michael Laudrup
Rui Costa
Mesut Özil
Liam Brady
Deco
Dejan Savićević
Zizinho
Raymond Kopa
Ronaldinho
Kaka
Francesco Totti
Gheorghe Hagi
Omar Sivori
Jari Litmanen
 
Netzer, Overath and Liedholm should be midfield playmakers and not #10s imo.
 
Last edited:
@harms would you include Ronaldinho in the left winger list too because he's IMO one of the greatest left wingers in history whilst in the #10 category he will no doubt be overlooked?
 
Enigma_87 said:
@harms would you include Ronaldinho in the left winger list too because he's IMO one of the greatest left wingers in history whilst in the #10 category he will no doubt be overlooked?
Click to expand...
Agree. No. 10 was his secondary position. But at the same time he wasn't a traditional winger either.
 
Midfield playmakers:
Josef Masopust
Jósef Bozsik
Didi
Paul Scholes
Andrea Pirlo
Xavi
Iniesta — 10
Paulo Roberto Falcão
Willem van Hanegem
Luis Suárez Miramontes — he had essentially 2 world class peaks as both a number 10 and a midfield playmaker. Tough one.
Luka Modrić
Bernd Schuster
Gerson
Toni Kroos
Glenn Hoddle - 10
Johnny Giles
Jim Baxter
Danny Blanchflower
Juan Sebastian Veron - 10
Cesc Fabregas
Xabi Alonso
Zvonimir Boban
Robert Prosinečki - 10



Number 10s:
Zinedine Zidane
Michel Platini
Zico
Diego Maradona
Pelé - surely among forwards?
Rivellino
Gianni Rivera
Sandro Mazzola
Wolfgang Overath - CM
Gunter Netzer
Bobby Charlton - what ever we decide for Netzer, Bobby should go in the same one
Juan Riquelme
Niels Liedholm - CM
Alain Giresse
Ricardo Bochini
Socrates
Kazimierz Deyna
Michael Laudrup
Rui Costa
Mesut Özil
Liam Brady - CM?
Deco
Dejan Savićević
Zizinho
Raymond Kopa
Ronaldinho - LW
Kaka
Francesco Totti - forwards?
Gheorghe Hagi
Omar Sivori - forwards?
Jari Litmanen
 
Joga Bonito said:
Netzero, Overath and Liedholm should be midfield playmakers and not #10s imo.
Click to expand...
Don't know much about Liedholm, but agree about Overath & Netzer.

(One problem is that "#10" is a somewhat blurry category, colloquially used for a broad range of playmakers from Overath to Zico. Perhaps "Attacking Midfielders" would be better for seperation, but there'd be grey areas as well.)
 
Midfield playmakers:
Iniesta — should be in #10 category, albeit not a typical one


Number 10s:
Wolfgang Overath - CM
Gunter Netzer - CM
Liam Brady - CM
Deco - CM - albeit a bit tricky considering he played as a #10 at Porto and most advanced midfielder in 4-3-3 at Barca.
Francesco Totti - false 9, would consider him in the forwards territory
Omar Sivori - more of a forward
 
How about replacing no,10 with attacking midfielder?
 
harms said:
I'd like to hear other opinions but he's definitely a midfielder for me.
Click to expand...

Lazio is his peak? Watched few games from that period and he was always at n10 but sample isnt big so likewise looking forward to other opinions.
 
Veron played most of his career in midfield, though had a peak at no. 10 too.
 
as @harms said I'd have Pele definitely in this category.

Veron is CM for me. He was a DLP or CM for most of his career, whilst he did excel in a #10 role he was a bit what Pogba/Vidal were at Juve at their best and still won't put either of them as #10.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Lazio is his peak? Watched few games from that period and he was always at n10 but sample isnt big so likewise looking forward to other opinions.
Click to expand...
Yeah. It was a midfield 4 with Veron, Simeone, Nedved & Conceição. He had the most creative freedom out of the four, but I'd say that he played more like a (motivated) Pogba.

For example:



Surely Fergie would've put him in Cantona-esque role up front instead of moving Scholes further forward if he was a number 10?
 
Well, he flopped so maybe not the best example :D
Will watch the clips tomorrow :)
 
Gazza & Pogba for playmakers?
Deco should move from 10 to playmaker
Pele, Totti and Ronaldinho to Forwards
 
I believe Veron would be considered an 8 by most argentinian supporters? Even someone like Brindisi was often in that category there from what i've read and he has a lot more attacking threat than Veron had.

Overath, Netzer and Brady as midfield playmakers. I don't think the concept of the 10 really had much significance in 70s or 80s German and British football. Dortmund who did use a genuine between the lines player with Manfred Burgsmuller got told he had no place tactically in the NT as he wasn't a midfielder or quite a forward. Probably Rui Costa and Zidane as midfielder playmakers too.

Savicevic and Hagi mostly lined up wide and had a winger/fully free attacking midfield role, similar to Ronaldinho.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.