Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Paul the Wolf]

There is no option to vote for in a GE that doesn't end up with Brexit as a possibility. The lib Dems are offering a 2nd ref just like labour.

No but they'd be campaigning for Remain and not try to pretend there's a possible alternative WA.

 

[Sweet Square]

On a serious note Im not sure any coalition (libs lab, libs snp lab, libs con, libs DUP cons) could agree a brexit policy

Yeah any coalition talks are going to million more difficult than the last time and piss off a whole group of voters.

Really anything other than one party wining a majority is going to be a shit show.

I was talking about the insults.

Unless Labour change their stance why would a remainer vote for them other than party blindness. They could get remain or they could get Brexit. Any form of Brexit will be a disaster for the UK and especially the poor.
That's without the absurdity that Labour leaders think they can get a different deal especially the one being proposed by Corbyn.

Because they are offering a second referendum and are the only party who can stop the tories. Unless its tactical voting(E.g. More chance of a lib dem winning in a tory seat than a labour candidate)Remain people should be voting labour.

 

[Kentonio]

Because they are offering a second referendum and are the only party who can stop the tories. Unless its tactical voting(E.g. More chance of a lib dem winning in a tory seat than a labour candidate)Remain people should be voting labour.

Corbyn doesn’t want to stop Brexit. A vote for Labour just tells him that people support his position. The Lib Dems can stop the Tories too, they just need to deny the Tories a majority. If the Tories can’t form a government then the others are going to have to, whether that’s with a different PM than Corbyn or not.

 

[sun_tzu]

Yeah any coalition talks are going to million more difficult than the last time and piss off a whole group of voters.

Really anything other than one party wining a majority is going to be a shit show.

Because they are offering a second referendum and are the only party who can stop the tories. Unless its tactical voting(E.g. More chance of a lib dem winning in a tory seat than a labour candidate)Remain people should be voting labour.

TBF the only party I can see winning a majority is the conservatives on the basis that if they agree a pact with Brexit party they become the only real leave option and they turn the election into essentially a referendum on hard brexit... even if 40% of people go for that and the other votes are split between the parties i think that in first past the post they get a majority... even then its going to need to be a decent majority to overcome their own internal arguments plus even if they do that I still think its going to be a shit show as a hard brexit that more than half of the people have not voted for is going to at best controversial

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yeah any coalition talks are going to million more difficult than the last time and piss off a whole group of voters.

Really anything other than one party wining a majority is going to be a shit show.

Because they are offering a second referendum and are the only party who can stop the tories. Unless its tactical voting(E.g. More chance of a lib dem winning in a tory seat than a labour candidate)Remain people should be voting labour.

Remain people would surely vote Labour if Labour would stop this nonsense about an alternative WA and condemned any form of Brexit. Yes I know Corbyn is frightened of losing the leave part of his voters but trying to please both you please no-one.

 

[ZupZup]

Unless Labour change their stance why would a remainer vote for them other than party blindness. They could get remain or they could get Brexit. Any form of Brexit will be a disaster for the UK and especially the poor.

You could vote Lib Dem and we still get Brexit. Whether someone votes Lib Dem or Labour, there would be a second referendum. I am a remainer and if we do have a second referendum, I would vote remain again. Having said that, in a GE I would vote Labour because they have quite a comprehensive policy platform outside of Brexit that I happen to agree with... whereas, do the Lib Dems actually have any other policies?

Also, it's pretty untrue that any form of Brexit would be a disaster for the UK and especially the poor. Even though I would much prefer to remain, Labour would still invest significantly whether there is a soft Brexit or no Brexit. I am talking large investment in house building, infrastructure, green energy, education, public services. That would go ahead regardless.

In my opinion, the poor people in this country would be significantly better off under a Labour Government with a soft Brexit, than a Lib Dem Government with no Brexit at all.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You could vote Lib Dem and we still get Brexit. Whether someone votes Lib Dem or Labour, there would be a second referendum. I am a remainer and if we do have a second referendum, I would vote remain again. Having said that, in a GE I would vote Labour because they have quite a comprehensive policy platform outside of Brexit that I happen to agree with... whereas, do the Lib Dems actually have any other policies?

Also, it's pretty untrue that any form of Brexit would be a disaster for the UK and especially the poor. Even though I would much prefer to remain, Labour would still invest significantly whether there is a soft Brexit or no Brexit. I am talking large investment in house building, infrastructure, green energy, education, public services. That would go ahead regardless.

In my opinion, the poor people in this country would be significantly better off under a Labour Government with a soft Brexit, than a Lib Dem Government with no Brexit at all.

I get what you're saying but the only soft Brexit is staying in the CU and SM, not the current imaginary à la carte Brexit of Labour.
Would the other policies of Labour be possible if significant damage to the economy was done , whoever was in government, Tory, Labour, LibDems or the Brexit Party would be too busy trying to rescue the economy to worry about much else and where does the money come from?. You can see how Brexit has dominated parliament for over three years and the UK haven't left yet.

 

[Sweet Square]

Corbyn doesn’t want to stop Brexit. A vote for Labour just tells him that people support his position.

Yeah you can keep thinking this but the party is offering another referendum.

TBF the only party I can see winning a majority is the conservatives on the basis that if they agree a pact with Brexit party they become the only real leave option and they turn the election into essentially a referendum on hard brexit... even if 40% of people go for that and the other votes are split between the parties i think that in first past the post they get a majority... even then its going to need to be a decent majority to overcome their own internal arguments plus even if they do that I still think its going to be a shit show as a hard brexit that more than half of the people have not voted for is going to at best controversial

Yeah its impossible to know what will happen onsidering the last one but a lot will depend on

1)The Brexit Party and its voters. I'm still not sure they will even run in the next election.

2)What will the election be about. Its very hard giving the constant news stream and just the nature of a general election that even something like Brexit will be constantly in the news. I image it will be a lot more than last time considering a likely election will take place in September but I don't think its going to dominate as much as some think.

Remain people would surely vote Labour if Labour would stop this nonsense about an alternative WA and condemned any form of Brexit. Yes I know Corbyn is frightened of losing the leave part of his voters but trying to please both you please no-one.

The fact is the party is offering another referendum. The anger seem to be that Corbyn isn't culturally pro remain - e.g. this

 

[ZupZup]

I get what you're saying but the only soft Brexit is staying in the CU and SM, not the current imaginary à la carte Brexit of Labour.
Would the other policies of Labour be possible if significant damage to the economy was done , whoever was in government, Tory, Labour, LibDems or the Brexit Party would be too busy trying to rescue the economy to worry about much else and where does the money come from?. You can see how Brexit has dominated parliament for over three years and the UK haven't left yet.

A soft Brexit would slow down the economy... but almost certainly still less than the financial crash did in 2008. At that time the Government made an ideological choice to impose austerity. They didn't have to and it actually strangled growth and caused a slower recovery than we might have otherwise had.

With a soft Brexit, the Government would equally have a choice on whether they continue any plans to significantly invest or they can carry on imposing austerity. Given what we have been through since 2008, you'd have to be pretty stupid to go with the latter.

As I say, I would still prefer to remain... but I don't agree that a soft Brexit would be some sort of disaster if the Government is willing to invest.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

A soft Brexit would slow down the economy... but almost certainly still less than the financial crash did in 2008. At that time the Government made an ideological choice to impose austerity. They didn't have to and it actually strangled growth and caused a slower recovery than we might have otherwise had.

With a soft Brexit, the Government would equally have a choice on whether they continue any plans to significantly invest or they can carry on imposing austerity. Given what we have been through since 2008, you'd have to be pretty stupid to go with the latter.

As I say, I would still prefer to remain... but I don't agree that a soft Brexit would be some sort of disaster if the Government is willing to invest.

I agree with what you say but it's a question of the definition of a soft brexit.
Remaining in the CU and SM will not damage the economy so much but it's all rather pointless as all it means is the Uk lose their influence and power.

The problem is Labour is not offering a real soft Brexit.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The fact is the party is offering another referendum. The anger seem to be that Corbyn isn't culturally pro remain - e.g. this

A referendum with what as the choices?
Remain
No deal
Labour's impossible WA modification.

 

[Kentonio]

The fact is the party is offering another referendum. The anger seem to be that Corbyn isn't culturally pro remain

No, the anger is that Labour leadership have had to be dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way towards something they clearly don’t believe in and don’t want.

At first it was ‘Enact Article 50 immediately!’, then ‘No we don’t want a referendum’ then ‘Remain shouldn’t be an option on a new referendum’ then ‘maybe a referendum if every other option doesn’t pan out’ then ‘ok a referendum but we won’t say whether we’d support Remain’ then ‘ok we’d support Remain but only against a Tory deal’.

But apparently Remainers should be flocking in their droves to support this party? Give me a break.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The fact is the party is offering another referendum. The anger seem to be that Corbyn isn't culturally pro remain - e.g. this

I think a lot of the anger goes all the way back to the original referendum and Corbyn's half arsed efforts in the lead up to it.

His lack of any coherent/consistent stance on Brexit after the referendum was lost is also annoying but that's actually kind of insignificant in comparison to the damage he has already done. I honestly think that the sort of dereliction of duty - on such a crucial issue for his electorate - is something he can never be forgiven for. I've spent a bit of time recently hanging out with Labour voting British friends and they're all fecking livid with Corbyn for exactly that reason.

 

[Buster15]

I think a lot of the anger goes all the way back to the original referendum and Corbyn's half arsed efforts in the lead up to it.

His lack of any coherent/consistent stance on Brexit after the referendum was lost is also annoying but that's actually kind of insignificant in comparison to the damage he has already done. I honestly think that the sort of dereliction of duty - on such a crucial issue for his electorate - is something he can never be forgiven for. I've spent a bit of time recently hanging out with Labour voting British friends and they're all fecking livid with Corbyn for exactly that reason.

He is not and never was a Leader. He completely lacks leadership qualities and of course never wanted to lead the party in the first place.
He is just a puppet for the left and does what he is told.
The longer he is in place the lower the chance of Labour winning an election. And I say this as a life long Labour voter. When highly experienced people like Alistair Campbell are of the same opinion, it shows they are destined for oblivion.

 

[Sweet Square]

No, the anger is that Labour leadership have had to be dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way towards something they clearly don’t believe in and don’t want.

At first it was ‘Enact Article 50 immediately!’, then ‘No we don’t want a referendum’ then ‘Remain shouldn’t be an option on a new referendum’ then ‘maybe a referendum if every other option doesn’t pan out’ then ‘ok a referendum but we won’t say whether we’d support Remain’ then ‘ok we’d support Remain but only against a Tory deal’.

But apparently Remainers should be flocking in their droves to support this party?

If your not a child who demands that everyone around you should be made to cater for your every need then yes labour is the party to support(I'm a socialist, do you think I'm happy with the Labour pledge to increase police numbers or their support of the nordic model for sex workers. ).

Also funny how labour struggling with its brexit stance(Due to it having leave voters)although in the end offering what it's remain base wants, is just too much for you to handle, its' simply the final straw. Yet your more than willingly to see past 5 years of helping the tories kill the poorest members of this country to vote for a party thats offering the same thing.

 

[Kentonio]

If your not a child who demands that everyone around you should be made to cater for your every need then yes labour is the party to support(I'm a socialist, do you think I'm happy with the Labour pledge to increase police numbers or their support of the nordic model for sex workers. ).

Also funny how labour struggling with its brexit stance(Due to it having leave voters)although in the end offering what it's remain base wants, is just too much for you to handle, its' simply the final straw. Yet your more than willingly to see past 5 years of helping the tories kill the poorest members of this country to vote for a party thats offering the same thing.

No, I just refuse to follow any party blindly through thick and thin. All that does is tells them they are following the right path. There are alternatives for voters and unless Labour come to terms with that they’ll never win another election.

 

[Sweet Square]

No, I just refuse to follow any party blindly through thick and thin.

No one is saying you have to follow that party through thick and thin.

I get it, the EU means something culturally to you and that (Whatever it is) isn't not being met by the current labour leader. Whatever I guess but its just odd you don't apply the same standard to the party your going to vote for.

But something something I'm a independent thinker something something.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

You could vote Lib Dem and we still get Brexit. Whether someone votes Lib Dem or Labour, there would be a second referendum. I am a remainer and if we do have a second referendum, I would vote remain again. Having said that, in a GE I would vote Labour because they have quite a comprehensive policy platform outside of Brexit that I happen to agree with... whereas, do the Lib Dems actually have any other policies?

Also, it's pretty untrue that any form of Brexit would be a disaster for the UK and especially the poor. Even though I would much prefer to remain, Labour would still invest significantly whether there is a soft Brexit or no Brexit. I am talking large investment in house building, infrastructure, green energy, education, public services. That would go ahead regardless.

In my opinion, the poor people in this country would be significantly better off under a Labour Government with a soft Brexit, than a Lib Dem Government with no Brexit at all.

Good points. Well made.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Oh god this is why the country is fecked.

It is why the Labour Party is fecked I will grant you that.

 

[Kentonio]

No one is saying you have to follow that party through thick and thin.

I get it, the EU means something culturally to you and that (Whatever it is) isn't not being met by the current labour leader. Whatever I guess but its just odd you don't apply the same standard to the party your going to vote for.

But something something I'm a independent thinker something something.

I live in the EU. This isn’t some question of what I feel like culturally (although I have strong feelings about that too), it’s a practical issue of day to day life, my job and career, my home and much more. Many of us over here have spent 3 years not knowing what our futures hold and having the UK government not showing a single iota of interest or care about us. So no, I won’t support an opposition party that have to be put in a headlock before they’ll even show a glimmer of interest in protecting my needs.

 

[MadMike]

There is no option to vote for in a GE that doesn't end up with Brexit as a possibility. The lib Dems are offering a 2nd ref just like labour.

No they are not. The Lib Dems in power would scrap Brexit. That’s their manifesto and starting position. They would probably compromise with a 2nd ref as a minority partner, which is something different.

Labour’s starting position is to pursue a Brexit just a different one from the Tory one. They would compromise with a referendum only if they couldn’t get their Brexit through parliament or if they needed libs as minority partner to form a government.

To suggest the positions are the same is disingenuous at best, idiotic at worst.

For Remainers above party politics it seems the best possible outcome is a strong Lib performance in a GE that gives them the role of kingmaker and thus actually forcing a 2nd ref.

 

[Sweet Square]

I live in the EU. This isn’t some question of what I feel like culturally (although I have strong feelings about that too), it’s a practical issue of day to day life, my job and career, my home and much more. Many of us over here have spent 3 years not knowing what our futures hold and having the UK government not showing a single iota of interest or care about us. So no, I won’t support an opposition party that have to be put in a headlock before they’ll even show a glimmer of interest in protecting my needs.

Firstly, your a english guy living in Europe, your are not a refugee for feck sake. And secondly if you want to do this moral game, its best not to try and use it for justifying a vote for the Lib Dems.

The green party is pro remain/stop brexit party and doesn't have a tory as a leader.

 

[MadMike]

Firstly, your a english guy living in Europe, your are not a refugee for feck sake. And secondly if you want to do this moral game, its best not to try and use it for justifying a vote for the Lib Dems.

The green party is pro remain/stop brexit party and doesn't have a tory as a leader.

Well, thank goodness neither do the Lib Dems. Unless you're really unaware of what the Tories are (hint: the clue is in the proper name of the party, the Conservative party).

And yes, if the Lib Dem position was a obfuscated as Labour's pro-Europeans would vote Greens. As is, Lib Dems are their best option.

 

[Sweet Square]

Well, thank goodness neither do the Lib Dems. Unless you're really unaware of what the Tories are (hint: the clue is in the proper name of the party, the Conservative party).

You want to have a look at her voting record(Let alone her personal views).

 

[MadMike]

You want to have a look at her voting record(Let alone her personal views).

I have. You wanna look up what the liberal democrats stand for?

 

[Dobba]

I think a lot of the anger goes all the way back to the original referendum and Corbyn's half arsed efforts in the lead up to it.

His lack of any coherent/consistent stance on Brexit after the referendum was lost is also annoying but that's actually kind of insignificant in comparison to the damage he has already done. I honestly think that the sort of dereliction of duty - on such a crucial issue for his electorate - is something he can never be forgiven for. I've spent a bit of time recently hanging out with Labour voting British friends and they're all fecking livid with Corbyn for exactly that reason.

Yeah, right. That's why 9 times out of 10 their chosen successor is Yvette Cooper. Her inability to even get her own constituency to vote remain (and it wasn't even close), her calling for Article 50 to be triggered and comparing anybody thinking of voting against it to Donald Trump followed by calling for a 'progressive argument' for the end to FoM don't seem to be stumbling blocks do they? Almost as if they couldn't actually give a feck about them at all.

 

[Kentonio]

Firstly, your a english guy living in Europe, your are not a refugee for feck sake.

No I’m not. I’m someone who doesn’t know whether France will continue to allow a non-EU citizen to continue to live and work here without onerous restrictions or conditions, much of which will likely depend on what restrictions the UK places on EU citizens. Perhaps this all seems like nothing to you. But not knowing and not having any real assurance is a huge stress and has been for years now.

 

[Sweet Square]

I have. You wanna look up what the liberal democrats stand for?

Wait they stand for something ?

 

[MadMike]

Wait they stand for something ?

Moreso than current labour, for sure.

 

[Virgil]

Yeah, right. That's why 9 times out of 10 their chosen successor is Yvette Cooper. Her inability to even get her own constituency to vote remain (and it wasn't even close), her calling for Article 50 to be triggered and comparing anybody thinking of voting against it to Donald Trump followed by calling for a 'progressive argument' for the end to FoM don't seem to be stumbling blocks do they? Almost as if they couldn't actually give a feck about them at all.

What really gets to me....and it really does is that remainers still don't get it. I suspect they never will. Its the same the other side of the pond with the liberals failure to understand the dynamics. It's not that folks who voted for Brexit or for Trump are 'thick' or 'stupid' it is simply that for too many years they have been totally ignored. In our own case it cannot be blamed (although it is) on the EU. It is down to all governments both Conservative and Labour who have treated the old industrial heartlands with utter contempt and distain. In our own case London is the only area of the country that matters. Its where all of the growth is generated. Whether Major or Blair or Cameron or Brown lets suck up to London and the city and feck the rest of the nation.

In that respect Boris is right. Get the rail network between Manchester and Leeds operational first.....buggar the London to Birmingham. If we are going to have Airport expansion....sod London lets have it in the North of England. Bloody inconvenience for those living South of the Thames but stuff the Metropolitan area they have had it too good for too long. Just look at house prices. At best on emergency life support North of Watford but a pure money spinner in the South and South West. What is really strange is that Labours heartland is now in London rather than the North West and North East. God help the Labour Party if Scotland and Wales ever do gain independence for when they do the Labour party will never again become electable.....they have sold their heartlands down the river.

Sadly although my time is almost done...my father a lifelong Paget supporter will be turning in his grave to see how the Labour party has deserted its grassroots. All IMHO which as per usual is perhaps totally wide of the mark.

 

[Sweet Square]

Moreso than current labour, for sure.

Well they don't call you mad mike for nothing.

 

[MadMike]

Well they don't call you mad mike for nothing.

Very smart, you're the first person to have made that joke.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, right. That's why 9 times out of 10 their chosen successor is Yvette Cooper. Her inability to even get her own constituency to vote remain (and it wasn't even close), her calling for Article 50 to be triggered and comparing anybody thinking of voting against it to Donald Trump followed by calling for a 'progressive argument' for the end to FoM don't seem to be stumbling blocks do they? Almost as if they couldn't actually give a feck about them at all.

Huh? You don’t know who my friends want to replace Corbyn. I don’t know either. I do know they all agree he’ll go down in history as making a horse’s arse of the biggest issue a Labour leader has had to face in modern history. And they’re furious about his incompetence. As are many many people. With a wide degree of opinions on who can or should replace him.

 

[Shamwow]

No they are not. The Lib Dems in power would scrap Brexit. That’s their manifesto and starting position. They would probably compromise with a 2nd ref as a minority partner, which is something different.

Labour’s starting position is to pursue a Brexit just a different one from the Tory one. They would compromise with a referendum only if they couldn’t get their Brexit through parliament or if they needed libs as minority partner to form a government.

To suggest the positions are the same is disingenuous at best, idiotic at worst.

For Remainers above party politics it seems the best possible outcome is a strong Lib performance in a GE that gives them the role of kingmaker and thus actually forcing a 2nd ref.

Err their policy is 2nd ref which I just checked on their website. The functional difference being that they are too arrogant to try and negotiate plan b.

Labour have stated their policy as a 2nd ref in all circumstances.

 

[Dobba]

Huh? You don’t know who my friends want to replace Corbyn. I don’t know either. I do know they all agree he’ll go down in history as making a horse’s arse of the biggest issue a Labour leader has had to face in modern history. And they’re furious about his incompetence. As are many many people. With a wide degree of opinions on who can or should replace him.

I stand by my 9 times out of 10. The other 1 is the Miliband brother who covered up torture flights.

 

[MadMike]

Err their policy is 2nd ref which I just checked on their website. The functional difference being that they are too arrogant to try and negotiate plan b.

Labour have stated their policy as a 2nd ref in all circumstances.

The libdem's manifesto on brexit is called "Fight for an exit from Brexit"
https://www.libdems.org.uk/brexit

..meanwhile Labour's manifesto mentions nothing of second referendum.
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

Speaking of arrogance though, I do like that you think Labour are being the humble ones here. When in their very manifesto page they are suggesting they could negotiate a Brexit that guarantees access to Single Market while also ending freedom of movement and allowing the UK to have their own trade deals. How you like them unicorns?

 

[Kentonio]

What really gets to me....and it really does is that remainers still don't get it. I suspect they never will. Its the same the other side of the pond with the liberals failure to understand the dynamics. It's not that folks who voted for Brexit or for Trump are 'thick' or 'stupid' it is simply that for too many years they have been totally ignored.

That’s funny, because many of us remainers were talking about exactly that 3 years ago and then repeatedly since, especially in the run-up to and the wake of Trumps election.

 

[RedChip]

It is down to all governments both Conservative and Labour who have treated the old industrial heartlands with utter contempt and distain.

It is not. This is a myth. Many strong majority Brexit areas are in the home counties. They have never been 'industrial' or 'left behind'. And many of the Northern former industrial heartlands were pro Remain.

 

[Dobba]

That’s funny, because many of us remainers were talking about exactly that 3 years ago and then repeatedly since, especially in the run-up to and the wake of Trumps election.

Shame that thousands upon thousands of your fellow remainers decided to spend weekends cheering on the MPs (Soubry, Cable, Jo Johnson, Grieve) who were happily fecking people over for a good decade before the referendum.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I stand by my 9 times out of 10. The other 1 is the Miliband brother who covered up torture flights.

Sums up the absolute shit show that is Labour right now when the best defence in response to accusations of gross incompetence by Corbyn is to talk about how bad other potential party leaders might be in his place.