Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Foxbatt]

So he was suspended for saying that he doesn't accept the whole of the report which was that Labour party was institutionally anti semitic under him?

 

[sun_tzu]

So he was suspended for saying that he doesn't accept the whole of the report which was that Labour party was institutionally anti semitic under him?

I think more for saying the issues were exaggerated

He said that he did not accept all of the report’s findings, but added: “I trust its recommendations will be swiftly implemented to help move on from this period.”

“One antisemite is one too many, but the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media. That combination hurt Jewish people and must never be repeated,” Mr Corbyn said.

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer was challenged several times about Mr Corbyn’s statement during a press conference Thursday.

“I’ll look carefully at what Jeremy Corbyn has said in full but I’ve said a moment ago and I’ll say it again, those that deny it’s a problem are part of the problem.

“Those that pretend it’s exaggerated or factional are part of the problem and under my leadership we will have zero tolerance of antisemitism."

 

[Smores]

He deserves to be suspended for the stupidity of falling for the trap really. Starmer was always going to jump on anything.

The interview on Sky he rightly says the public perception was way out of whack with reality 0.3% members accused of anti-semtism compared to 33% believed to be the figure but facts don't matter.

 

[Foxbatt]

He deserves to be suspended for the stupidity of falling for the trap really. Starmer was always going to jump on anything.

The interview on Sky he rightly says the public perception was way out of whack with reality 0.3% members accused of anti-semtism compared to 33% believed to be the figure but facts don't matter.

Yes he was stupid to fall for that. But he is always going to defend himself so it's obvious he can't say there was a lot of semitism anyway.

 

[Buster15]

He deserves to be suspended for the stupidity of falling for the trap really. Starmer was always going to jump on anything.

The interview on Sky he rightly says the public perception was way out of whack with reality 0.3% members accused of anti-semtism compared to 33% believed to be the figure but facts don't matter.

Good riddance. His time as leader was a disaster culminating in the party getting a good kicking by the electorate.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Regarding the new thread title, was he ever really Labour? The party has only been in power for one 13-year spell in Corbyn’s 37 years as an MP, and in that spell he voted against the whip over 400 times. It’s a rather parasitical career, culminating in helping deliver Brexit for the nationalist loons in our country.

 

[711]

Regarding the new thread title, was he ever really Labour? The party has only been in power for one 13-year spell in Corbyn’s 37 years as an MP, and in that spell he voted against the whip over 400 times. It’s a rather parasitical career, culminating in helping deliver Brexit for the nationalist loons in our country.

He was a Brexiter from the start, at least he can say he achieved that.

 

[Synco]

He was a Brexiter from the start, at least he can say he achieved that.

One question I have: How did the pro-Brexit parts of the left process the leadership of the nationalist right on the project?

 

[711]

One question I have: How did the pro-Brexit parts of the left process the leadership of the nationalist right on the project?

Sorry to be dim but I genuinely don't understand that question.

 

[Pexbo]

Sorry to be dim but I genuinely don't understand that question.

I think: How do the left get behind something that was driven so fervently by such gross characters from the far right?

 

[Synco]

I think: How do the left get behind something that was driven so fervently by such gross characters from the far right?

Exactly, thanks. (The pro-Brexit part of the left, that is.)

Edit: As far as I understand the numbers, conservative voters also provided the largest share of leave votes in the 2016 referendum. So that's part of it too.

 

[711]

I think: How do the left get behind something that was driven so fervently by such gross characters from the far right?

Right thanks, you would think they wouldn't, but if you go back to the days of Benn and the like that wing of the party was very anti-EU. It's why Wilson called his referendum, he couldn't reconcile the differences within the party and that was his way out. I don't believe Corbyn and McDonnell ever changed.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

Regarding the new thread title, was he ever really Labour? The party has only been in power for one 13-year spell in Corbyn’s 37 years as an MP, and in that spell he voted against the whip over 400 times. It’s a rather parasitical career, culminating in helping deliver Brexit for the nationalist loons in our country.

His values are and have always been in line with the traditional values of the Labour party. He is at odds with much of the party because in those 37 years Labour has shifted from being a left wing workers' party to a centrist party. If you look at his record of voting against the whip, he was almost always right to do so. It is a good thing that he voted against the whip, and we should have more politicians that ignore the whip and vote based on their principles and beliefs. For me he represents the party better than anybody.

 

[balaks]

His values are and have always been in line with the traditional values of the Labour party. He is at odds with much of the party because in those 37 years Labour has shifted from being a left wing workers' party to a centrist party. If you look at his record of voting against the whip, he was almost always right to do so. It is a good thing that he voted against the whip, and we should have more politicians that ignore the whip and vote based on their principles and beliefs. For me he represents the party better than anybody.

He doesn't represent the party at all.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

He doesn't represent the party at all.

You're right, he doesn't. I meant that he represents what it should be, not what it is.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

So he was suspended for saying that he doesn't accept the whole of the report which was that Labour party was institutionally anti semitic under him?

No, partly because the report didn't say that the party was institutionally anti semitic.

He was suspended for saying the volume of anti semitic claims was exaggerated as 0.3% of Labour members were guilty of it but public perception (via poll) was that 34% of Labour members were anti semitic.

 

[balaks]

You're right, he doesn't. I meant that he represents what it should be, not what it is.

Well that's down to personal opinion but Labour has always been a democratic socialist party, Corbyn is much farther to the left than that.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Exactly, thanks. (The pro-Brexit part of the left, that is.)

Edit: As far as I understand the numbers, conservative voters also provided the largest share of leave votes in the 2016 referendum. So that's part of it too.

The Brexit left see the EU as a neoliberial capitalist enterprise that is contrary to socialist ideals. If the UK leaves the EU with autonomy over state aid, among other things, then the British socialist state can be born. It's about the big picure.

You're right, he doesn't. I meant that he represents what it should be, not what it is.

In your opinion I guess. It isn't really accurate to say that he represents traditional Labour either. The Blue Labour movement is closest to that. It's hard to imagine that Clement Attlee would be a fan of Corbyn.

 

[Super Hans]

He deserves to be suspended for the stupidity of falling for the trap really. Starmer was always going to jump on anything.

The interview on Sky he rightly says the public perception was way out of whack with reality 0.3% members accused of anti-semtism compared to 33% believed to be the figure but facts don't matter.

Clever trap. Set a trap for Corbyn to say what is mind-bogglingly obvious to anyone with half a brain, and then alienate the left who revere him. Genius.

 

[VeevaVee]

 

[balaks]

Jesus Christ.

 

[Smores]

Clever trap. Set a trap for Corbyn to say what is mind-bogglingly obvious to anyone with half a brain, and then alienate the left who revere him. Genius.

It's just a turn of phrase.

 

[Compton22]

This is what people fail to realise, Starmer is playing the long game with this decision which will ultimately pay off in the long run. Hard to argue with based on the leadership being one of the reasons cited for people turning away from Labour at the previous election.

 

[Super Hans]

This is what people fail to realise, Starmer is playing the long game with this decision which will ultimately pay off in the long run. Hard to argue with based on the leadership being one of the reasons cited for people turning away from Labour at the previous election.

I think you’re wrong. For many on the left, Corbyn is probably the only politician they’ve ever really liked and respected. The real deal. If Corbyn isn’t reinstated, like, now, many of them will never forgive Starmer and he can forget about ever becoming PM.

 

[berbatrick]

I think you’re wrong. For many on the left, Corbyn is probably the only politician they’ve ever really liked and respected. The real deal. If Corbyn isn’t reinstated, like, now, many of them will never forgive Starmer and he can forget about ever becoming PM.

I'm skeptical about this, firstly I'm not sure the numbers are big enough (people who love Corbyn and are willing to not vote Labour, might be a few but not that many) and secondly because so far there seems to be no organisation behind this.
Right now the Westminster numbers look like they did for Corbyn-May after the 2017 election i.e. a reasonable chance at forming the new govt if an election is held.

 

[BobbyManc]

Well that's down to personal opinion but Labour has always been a democratic socialist party, Corbyn is much farther to the left than that.

Labour has not always been a democratic socialist party, nor is Corbyn further to the left than that. On what basis do you make both claims, be interested to see how you’ve come to this conclusion?

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Well that's down to personal opinion but Labour has always been a democratic socialist party, Corbyn is much farther to the left than that.

Corbyn wouldn't have been to the left of even the parliamentary Labour party until the early 90s. This just isn't true historically.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Labour has not always been a democratic socialist party, nor is Corbyn further to the left than that. On what basis do you make both claims, be interested to see how you’ve come to this conclusion?

Beat by a minute!

 

[Ubik]

Corbyn wouldn't have been to the left of even the parliamentary Labour party until the early 90s. This just isn't true historically.

He's a Bennite, that was on the leftward edges of the PLP long before the 90s.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Whatever his politics, he’s been rightly outed as an appalling leader. Yesterday showed us that, if we didn’t know already. He took it as a personal attack. Whereas all he needed to do was take some responsibility for his leadership failure. He a back bencher out of his depth. He’s a great back bencher, but a leader he is not.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

He's a Bennite, that was on the leftward edges of the PLP long before the 90s.

By the late 80s arguably and certainly by the time he stood against Kinnock but I would say long before the 90s is hyperbole. He certainly wasn't to the left of Foot.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Where was foot though compared to Wilson Healy or Callaghan?

 

[711]

By the late 80s arguably and certainly by the time he stood against Kinnock but I would say long before the 90s is hyperbole. He certainly wasn't to the left of Foot.

I'd genuinely forgotten that Labour once had a leader as utterly inept and out of touch as Corbyn, but you're right, there was Foot too.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I'd genuinely forgotten that Labour once had a leader as utterly inept and out of touch as Corbyn, but you're right, there was Foot too.

The ineptness isn't the point. The relative leftness to Benn was.

 

[Ubik]

By the late 80s arguably and certainly by the time he stood against Kinnock but I would say long before the 90s is hyperbole. He certainly wasn't to the left of Foot.

This is a solid decade out, his transformation from the mainstream to the left was in the 70s, to the extent that Foot put himself forward as the unity candidate against Benn's rebellion among the CLPs. The Healey deputy leadership win against him in 81 was seen as pivotal for that reason.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

This is a solid decade out, his transformation from the mainstream to the left was in the 70s, to the extent that Foot put himself forward as the unity candidate against Benn's rebellion among the CLPs. The Healey deputy leadership win against him in 81 was seen as pivotal for that reason.

Aye, this is true.

 

[Boycott]

I voted for Corbyn's Labour on both occasions. If I had my way he would be our Prime Minister now and leading the response to the Coronavirus pandemic which I doubt can be any worse than what Johnson is doing.

Ultimately though he had two bites at the cherry. He couldn't get it done. There's an alternate universe out there whereby the UK voted to remain in the EU in 2016 and as a result this year, 2020, would have been Corbyn's opportunity to lead Labour into a General Election. I believe in such a timeline he would be in office now because without Brexit the bread and butter issues of politics which he believes in and articulates such as anti-austerity, addressing economic inequality, investment in public services and infrastructure would have been at the forefront rather than non-stop debates over Westminster vs Brussels, Deal or No Deal, Second referendums etc.

I don't think he is a bad man. I wouldn't have voted for him if I felt that way. A lot of his policy stances I like. He got the leadership role in 2015 when nobody saw the event of Brexit coming. He got the job because he offered something different. But as time went on you can see his stubbornness and sanctimony made him incapable as a leader. This should be a lesson that next time don't pick someone who sat on the back benches for 30 years rebelling against the opposition side and your own side to get propelled to the center of the front bench. It's noble to be an activist grassroots MP but you can't be in charge of an entire party of different factions like that. To be honest I feel quite sympathetic for him. These past five years brought him greater worldwide attention than he could have ever dreamed of in the past thirty as a MP. But was it worth it? Under his leadership he had to confront three Tory PMs, lose the referendum when a majority of the party's members wanted to remain (and those who wanted to leave defected splitting the party), lose two general elections - the last of which saw the party do worse than under Michael Foot, and have the scandal of antisemitism hover in the party. What a legacy to leave behind.

I've been a big fan of Dennis Skinner for years but the biggest reason he became a beloved figure among the public is precisely the fact that for a nearly fifty year career he was kept away from holding any position of leadership that would have required him to be accountable for people other than himself.

 

[esmufc07]

 

[Jippy]

Jewish leaders not impressed, particularly by the timing, with the NEC panel meeting this arvo.

Marie van der Zyl, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said Labour should reject Mr Corbyn’s “non-apology”.

“If the party wants to show it is serious about tackling anti-Jewish racism, it will consign this statement, just like the culture that led to the EHRC’s damning findings, to the dustbin of history,” she said. “To do otherwise would be a failure of leadership that would risk the party slipping backwards.”

Gideon Falter, chief executive of Campaign Against Antisemitism, which was one of the complainants to the EHRC, said Mr Corbyn was attempting to “recast his comments gaslighting the Jewish community”.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...tisemitism-concerns-not-exaggerated-d6x3zdn0l

 

[jeff_goldblum]

There's some irony in the claim that Corbyn's initial statement amounted to 'gaslighting the Jewish community'.

Gaslighting is an attempt by A to undermine B's perception of events to make them feel insecure and manipulate them. Creating the false impression that the bulk of the Labour membership were antisemites and that a Corbyn-led government would be a risk to Jews, in order to use the Jewish community's anxiety and fear as a stick to beat Corbyn and the left with falls far more comfortably into any description of gaslighting than anything in Corbyn's statement did.