Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Kentonio said:
A little titbit from Alastair Campbell’s letter to Jeremy Corbyn. Just for those who really believe the Labour leadership have any interest in remaining in the EU..
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Well I'm sure Alastair is telling the truth. I mean there is no reason to doubt him.


Kentonio said:
1. No, but they can win enough to form a coalition and dictate the terms regarding Brexit.
2. Why do the Lib Dems get held to a different standard to the other parties? Labour voted for the Iraq War. The Tories shredded public services and sent millions into poverty. Yet apparently we can never vote Lib Dem again because as the minority party in a coalition they didn't stop everything the Tories wanted to do?
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This argument could work if the lib dem didn't just vote someone who voted more times with the tory whip than Michael Gove!

Your literally going to vote for someone who opposed a living wage, voted to cull badgers and wants a statue of thatcher.

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Kentonio said:
Lib Dem. It’s not even a difficult choice. And in case you’re tempted to say ‘they can’t win’, they don’t need to win. They just need to have enough seats to be the kingmakers in the next coalition, with a second referendum as their main price for cooperation.
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If I was from the UK, this would be my thinking too.
 
Smores said:
That isn't proper democracy and isn't remotely close to how this country has ever been governed.

Our public institutions are held responsible by the public, they are not ruled by the public.
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In the normal run of things I’d agree completely, but these aren’t normal times and the stupid decision to put it to referendum once changed the playing field completely over Brexit.
 
Shamwow said:
Why don't you want to give them the choice of a deal in the referendum?
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I’m fine with a Remain-Leave first question and then a ‘If we Leave, should it be with a deal or no deal’ second question. The issue I have is with not allowing leavers the opportunity to vote for no deal if that’s what they truly want.
 
Zlatattack said:
I'm not sure I trust the general public to make a sensible decision. Too many people are politically and economically illiterate.
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I think, or at least I'm hoping so, that BoJo's £100m publicity blitz regarding no deal preparations might have the unintended consequence of revealing to the blissfully blind public no deal for the catastrophe it is. I mean why would a positive outcome need a public information compaign fit for major cantagions?
 
Kentonio said:
I’m fine with a Remain-Leave first question and then a ‘If we Leave, should it be with a deal or no deal’ second question. The issue I have is with not allowing leavers the opportunity to vote for no deal if that’s what they truly want.
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I think this is a misunderstanding then. What I'm saying is that the Lib Dems are happy to have Remain vs No Deal as the only options, and that this is completely negligent and dangerous.

Deal needs to be an option in the referendum, and realistically if Labour were in government then the deal would have to be a Labour negotiated deal.

Most of us here agree that brexit needs to be stopped, but I also think we need to accept that it was what was voted for. Therefore any efforts to stop brexit should at least have shown that they tried to make brexit work, but that brexit turned out to be unworkable.

I don't think it's smart for Labour to say at this point that they'd hold a second referendum and try to negotiate a deal that can be voted on, but that they would support remain in any circumstances, no matter what that deal is. It would come across as them not actually trying to get a deal.
 
Shamwow said:
Deal needs to be an option in the referendum, and realistically if Labour were in government then the deal would have to be a Labour negotiated deal.

Most of us here agree that brexit needs to be stopped, but I also think we need to accept that it was what was voted for. Therefore any efforts to stop brexit should at least have shown that they tried to make brexit work, but that brexit turned out to be unworkable.

I don't think it's smart for Labour to say at this point that they'd hold a second referendum and try to negotiate a deal that can be voted on, but that they would support remain in any circumstances, no matter what that deal is. It would come across as them not actually trying to get a deal.
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There would actually have to be a deal in place with the EU though for that referendum question to have any meaning (otherwise how do people know what deal they are voting for?), and unless Labour win a general election they can't agree any deal with the EU. At the moment the only way deal can be a referendum question is if its May's existing deal. Otherwise deal could win a second ref and then Labour could fail to negotiate a deal with the EU, putting us right back where we started.

It doesn't help that the deal Labour claim they want, is no more possible under EU rules than the one Johnson claims to want.
 
Sweet Square said:
argument could work if the lib dem didn't just vote someone who voted more times with the tory whip than Michael Gove!
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You mean the whip she was subject to as a minister in the coalition govt?

But frankly this stuff about voting records is a secondary issue currently. What matters is her party's position on Brexit.
 
Kentonio said:
There would actually have to be a deal in place with the EU though for that referendum question to have any meaning (otherwise how do people know what deal they are voting for?), and unless Labour win a general election they can't agree any deal with the EU. At the moment the only way deal can be a referendum question is if its May's existing deal. Otherwise deal could win a second ref and then Labour could fail to negotiate a deal with the EU, putting us right back where we started.

It doesn't help that the deal Labour claim they want, is no more possible under EU rules than the one Johnson claims to want.
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So where's the problem? Labour support a 2nd referendum in all circumstances, and they will support remain against no deal or the tory deal. If they get into power then they will attempt to negotiate a new deal and hold a referendum of remain against that deal.

I know trying to please everyone is frowned upon, but this seems like the most pragmatic solution that throws a bone to the leavers, whilst giving the majority of remainers exactly what they've been campaigning for since the brexit vote.

Lib dems have exactly the same policy with the exception that they would not attempt to negotiate a new deal if they got into power, which is negligent and just shows that they don't actually think they'll ever get into power.
 
Shamwow said:
So where's the problem? Labour support a 2nd referendum in all circumstances, and they will support remain against no deal or the tory deal. If they get into power then they will attempt to negotiate a new deal and hold a referendum of remain against that deal.

I know trying to please everyone is frowned upon, but this seems like the most pragmatic solution that throws a bone to the leavers, whilst giving the majority of remainers exactly what they've been campaigning for since the brexit vote.

Lib dems have exactly the same policy with the exception that they would not attempt to negotiate a new deal if they got into power, which is negligent and just shows that they don't actually think they'll ever get into power.
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So the offer to remainers is fundamentally a Labour Brexit rather the Tory one. No thanks!

They will campaign for remain the first time around. Then for Labour Brexit the second.

Labour use remainers to get into power then we get sold out.
 
nickm said:
So the offer to remainers is fundamentally a Labour Brexit rather the Tory one. No thanks!

You've said it yourself. Labour use remainers to get into power then we get sold out.
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No, the offer to remainers is a 2nd referendum, which is exactly what remainers have been campaigning for over the last few years.
 
Shamwow said:
No, the offer to remainers is a 2nd referendum, which is exactly what remainers have been campaigning for over the last few years.
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The offer is Labour campaign for remain, then they campaign for Brexit.

(They of course will campaign for the Brexit deal they strike in any referendum.)

It's an offer to remainers to get used.
 
nickm said:
The offer is Labour campaign for remain, then they campaign for Brexit.
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I've just explained why I think Labour's approach is rational, and you haven't engaged with me at all. If you want to look like a troll then carry on as you are.
 
Shamwow said:
I've just explained why I think Labour's approach is rational, and you haven't engaged with me at all. If you want to look like a troll then carry on as you are.
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I have. I don't agree with you. You completely fail to comprehend how disingenuous this Labour offer looks to remainers like myself.
 
Kentonio said:
I’m fine with a Remain-Leave first question and then a ‘If we Leave, should it be with a deal or no deal’ second question. The issue I have is with not allowing leavers the opportunity to vote for no deal if that’s what they truly want.
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I can understand why leavers like Farage might argue that but it's the responsibility of our government and other public institutions to deny that.

If we give in to such a principle i think that's worse than brexit itself. It's a terrifying path towards all sorts of pain and misery.
 
nickm said:
I have. I don't agree with you. You completely fail to comprehend how disingenuous this Labour offer looks to remainers like myself.
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I just said that they're promising the thing that we (yes I'm a remainer too) have been asking for the last few years and you didn't even acknowledge that in your response.
 
Smores said:
I can understand why leavers like Farage might argue that but it's the responsibility of our government and other public institutions to deny that.

If we give in to such a principle i think that's worse than brexit itself. It's a terrifying path towards all sorts of pain and misery.
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The hard leave portion of the public is significant in size and increasingly vocal. If they're denied a voice then they'll grow increasingly militant and confrontational. They'll claim (and not unreasonably) that they are being denied a democratic voice, and people who don't feel represented by democracy can end up doing dangerous things. By putting no deal on the ballot they have a chance to actually make their case within a democratic framework, and it'll provide a pressure valve for their resentment.

Of course if they lose they'll still claim the will of the people was subverted by not following through with the first referendum, but its a much less compelling argument when its the British public who vote against them, not just politicians overriding the public.
 
Shamwow said:
I just said that they're promising the thing that we (yes I'm a remainer too) have been asking for the last few years and you didn't even acknowledge that in your response.
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Because I don't trust Labour in this! They have fudged a clear Brexit position right from the start, culminating in an offer to remainers to lend them their votes to help deliver a Labour Brexit rather than a Tory one. I don't need to accept this when the lib Dems are offering a straight forward opposition
to any Brexit. Which is what I believe in.
 
nickm said:
Because I don't trust Labour in this! They have fudged a clear Brexit position right from the start, culminating in an offer to remainers to lend them their votes to help deliver a Labour Brexit rather than a Tory one. I don't need to accept this when the lib Dems are offering a straight forward opposition
to any Brexit. Which is what I believe in.
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You're going over idealism over realism.
 
nickm said:
Because I don't trust Labour in this! They have fudged a clear Brexit position right from the start, culminating in an offer to remainers to lend them their votes to help deliver a Labour Brexit rather than a Tory one. I don't need to accept this when the lib Dems are offering a straight forward opposition
to any Brexit. Which is what I believe in.
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In 2010 the Lib Dems stood on a very straight forward position advocating cutting tuition fees. When they got into government they trebled them. If you succeed in putting the Lib Dems in office again I look forward to treble Brexit.
 
Untied said:
In 2010 the Lib Dems stood on a very straight forward position advocating cutting tuition fees. When they got into government they trebled them. If you succeed in putting the Lib Dems in office again I look forward to treble Brexit.
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It's fairly likely that they'll go into coalition with the Tories in return for a 2nd referendum and we'll end up with remain vs a tory deal or no deal referendum. Which is exactly what Labour would be offering, except with remain vs Labour deal and with a government that doesn't actively try to feck over the poor and disabled by gutting public services.
 
Shamwow said:
You're going over idealism over realism.
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I'm really not. I believe we are fundamentally in coalition type parliaments now and as someone else said in this thread, the very best way for remainers to influence this debate is to have a remain party speaking for them. Not a differently flavoured Brexit party.
 
Untied said:
In 2010 the Lib Dems stood on a very straight forward position advocating cutting tuition fees. When they got into government they trebled them. If you succeed in putting the Lib Dems in office again I look forward to treble Brexit.
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And Labour helped start the Iraq war. Plenty of shit to go around if you want to play that game. Or we can focus on the here and now.
 
Shamwow said:
It's fairly likely that they'll go into coalition with the Tories in return for a 2nd referendum and we'll end up with remain vs a tory deal or no deal referendum. Which is exactly what Labour would be offering, except with remain vs Labour deal and with a government that doesn't actively try to feck over the poor and disabled by gutting public services.
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I'd be happy if they went into coalition with Labour actually. They would be the moderating voice that party needs and they would keep Labour honest on Brexit. I would vote for that outcome.
 
nickm said:
I'd be happy if they went into coalition with Labour actually. They would be the moderating voice that party needs and they would keep Labour honest on Brexit. I would vote for that outcome.
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Then you'd end up with exactly what Labour are already promising which is a remain vs Labour deal referendum. Which is probably because Labour already are the moderating voice in all of this, with the Greens/Lib Dems, and Tories/BRX party being on the 2 extreme ends of the debate.

The idea that someone thinks Lib Dems will keep anyone honest on anything in coalition is amusing though so thanks for the laugh.
 
Sweet Square said:
I think @Untied just proved my point.
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I was talking about the insults.

Unless Labour change their stance why would a remainer vote for them other than party blindness. They could get remain or they could get Brexit. Any form of Brexit will be a disaster for the UK and especially the poor.
That's without the absurdity that Labour leaders think they can get a different deal especially the one being proposed by Corbyn.
 
nickm said:
I'd be happy if they went into coalition with Labour actually. They would be the moderating voice that party needs and they would keep Labour honest on Brexit. I would vote for that outcome.
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I wonder what libs / snp might demand as a price for formaing a coalition - im guessing politically a lot more than the DUP who were brought off with cash.

Revoke and referendum on full PR and independence?
 
Shamwow said:
It's fairly likely that they'll go into coalition with the Tories in return for a 2nd referendum and we'll end up with remain vs a tory deal or no deal referendum. Which is exactly what Labour would be offering, except with remain vs Labour deal and with a government that doesn't actively try to feck over the poor and disabled by gutting public services.
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They're not going coalition with the Tories. Firstly it killed them as a party for years last time. Secondly they only did it last time because Labour had been in power for 16 years, were extremely unpopular, and were not the biggest party in the election. Why would the Lib Dems prop up a party that's been in office for 9 years and that is wildly hated?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I was talking about the insults.

Unless Labour change their stance why would a remainer vote for them other than party blindness. They could get remain or they could get Brexit. Any form of Brexit will be a disaster for the UK and especially the poor.
That's without the absurdity that Labour leaders think they can get a different deal especially the one being proposed by Corbyn.
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There is no option to vote for in a GE that doesn't end up with Brexit as a possibility. The lib Dems are offering a 2nd ref just like labour.
 
Kentonio said:
They're not going coalition with the Tories. Firstly it killed them as a party for years last time. Secondly they only did it last time because Labour had been in power for 16 years, were extremely unpopular, and were not the biggest party in the election. Why would the Lib Dems prop up a party that's been in office for 9 years and that is wildly hated?
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Because
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Kentonio said:
They're not going coalition with the Tories. Firstly it killed them as a party for years last time. Secondly they only did it last time because Labour had been in power for 16 years, were extremely unpopular, and were not the biggest party in the election. Why would the Lib Dems prop up a party that's been in office for 9 years and that is wildly hated?
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If it gets them power they'd do it.

I don't think voting lib dem under the assumption that they'd not go into coalition with the Tories is wise.
 
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