Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

2cents said:
So Corbyn was a member of a private anti-Israel hate group on FB which was frequented by an assortment of Holocaust deniers, anti-semites and conspiracy theorists which he coincidentally left when he became Labour Party leader. Nobody on the Cafe interested?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...s-party-members-in-antisemitic-facebook-group
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I'm interested but I don't normally frequent the Guardian, so thanks for sharing! What would you charge Corbyn with based on his membership of the group?
 
Javi said:
I'm interested but I don't normally frequent the Guardian, so thanks for sharing! What would you charge Corbyn with based on his membership of the group?
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Being generous, I'd say it shows a massive lack of judgement on his part. But he has form for hanging around with this crowd and given the timing of his departure I'd say he recognized himself how problematic it might be, so I'm not sure why we should be generous.
 
2cents said:
Being generous, I'd say it shows a massive lack of judgement on his part. But he has form for hanging around with this crowd and given the timing of his departure I'd say he recognized himself how problematic it might be, so I'm not sure why we should be generous.
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So you're essentially saying it's bad campaigning? I'd agree with that.

I think the conclusion that based on the fact that he was a member of this group (not a fan page) on Facebook he must be anti-Israel or anti-semite is not valid because insufficient evidence*. It's a bit like just because Grinner is a member of the Caf doesn't necessarily make him a ManUnited fan. It would be different if he himself posted such views, but going from the article he was engaging in discussions which imo isn't bad per se even if you're talking with the second coming of Hitler.

*just to clarify, I'm not saying you made that conclusion or anything, just seems like the most problematic concern that could arise from this article.
 
2cents said:
So Corbyn was a member of a private anti-Israel hate group on FB which was frequented by an assortment of Holocaust deniers, anti-semites and conspiracy theorists which he coincidentally left when he became Labour Party leader. Nobody on the Cafe interested?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...s-party-members-in-antisemitic-facebook-group
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2cents said:
Being generous, I'd say it shows a massive lack of judgement on his part. But he has form for hanging around with this crowd and given the timing of his departure I'd say he recognized himself how problematic it might be, so I'm not sure why we should be generous.
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Your original statement with the link doesn't really convey the situation very accurately. A friend added him to the group and he responded to some posts he was tagged in.
 
2cents said:
So Corbyn was a member of a private anti-Israel hate group on FB which was frequented by an assortment of Holocaust deniers, anti-semites and conspiracy theorists which he coincidentally left when he became Labour Party leader. Nobody on the Cafe interested?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...s-party-members-in-antisemitic-facebook-group
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That article doesn't really state it to be what you've suggested at all. If this forum was judged across all its content we'd all be damned as flat earther conspiracy nuts :lol:
 
Javi said:
So you're essentially saying it's bad campaigning? I'd agree with that
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I'd go further and suggest it's yet more evidence that when it comes to anti-Israel activism he really doesn't consider the anti-semitism that often accompanies it to be a problem worth worrying about. Hence his appearances at Quds Day marches, his work on Press TV, and his friendly meetings with Hamas.

Pexbo said:
Your original statement with the link doesn't really convey the situation very accurately. A friend added him to the group and he responded to some posts he was tagged in.
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Smores said:
That article doesn't really state it to be what you've suggested at all. If this forum was judged across all its content we'd all be damned as flat earther conspiracy nuts :lol:
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You can browse through the report yourselves:

http://david-collier.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/180305_livereport_part1_FINAL.pdf

http://david-collier.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/180305_livereport_part2_FINAL.pdf

Obviously don't expect you to read through it all, but the nature of the group is very much as I've described it.

Again, this is the type of crowd he has associated with for years. Whatever he may personally feel about the sentiments expressed in there, I think it's clear he's willing to put them aside for the sake of what he believes to be the greater cause.

I wonder what the reaction would be to a prominent politician found to have associated themselves to a similar degree with far-right, racist activists?
 
2cents said:
Why not?
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Firstly because of the power dynamics. Anti semitism is of course a problem in the UK but today far right racism is far more dangerous(A Labour MP was murder by a far right extremist and the far right extremist who drove a van into a crowd of muslims, killing one man and was hoping that he might have being able to kill both Cobyn and Sadiq Khan as well). And then we have the state led racism - such as deportations, arms selling etc, it really wasn't that long ago that the government order vans to driven around the capital city asking the public to report illegal immigrates. The Facebook group is essentially anti semitic losers posting anti semitic youtube videos, they have no actual political power.

Secondly while I haven't read the full report(It's very long)in The Guardian article shows no evidence of Corbyn saying anything anti semitic, Corbyn says he was added to the group rather than actively joined it, and again according to Corbyn he only posted when tagged. His posts seem to be similar to his activist work - having a vote on recognising Palestine and potentially having a a doctor from Palestine come over to the UK to give a presentation.

And then finally since Corbyn has being Labour leader has the Labour Party adopted any anti semitic policies, NO. The party has been quick enough to kick out anyone who has been anti semitic(I image there's a unit dedicated to just Ken Livingston).
 
Sweet Square said:
Firstly because of the power dynamics. Anti semitism is of course a problem in the UK but today far right racism is far more dangerous(A Labour MP was murder by a far right extremist and the far right extremist who drove a van into a crowd of muslims, killing one man and was hoping that he might have being able to kill both Cobyn and Sadiq Khan as well). And then we have the state led racism - such as deportations, arms selling etc, it really wasn't that long ago that the government order vans to driven around the capital city asking the public to report illegal immigrates. The Facebook group is essentially anti semitic losers posting anti semitic youtube videos, they have no actual political power.
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I don't think the power differential point, however true it may be, is relevant here - it's not a competition over which form of racism is worse or has the worse impact, and avoiding associating with adherents of either or any form of racism is really not a hard thing to do. In any case, while what you say may be true for the UK, it is certainly more questionable when looking across Europe and many other places, where Jewish institutions require armed security and Jews have been targeted repeatedly in terror attacks.

Sweet Square said:
Secondly while I haven't read the full report(It's very long)in The Guardian article shows no evidence of Corbyn saying anything anti semitic, Corbyn says he was added to the group rather than actively joined it, and again according to Corbyn he only posted when tagged.
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There is no evidence of him posting antisemitic content. Nobody has claimed he did, and I'm not claiming he is an anti-semite (nor is the report).

There is an example given in the report of him commenting on a link which doesn't show him being tagged (part 2, p. 30); however perhaps he was tagged in one of the unseen comments.

Sweet Square said:
His posts seem to be similar to his activist work - having a vote on recognising Palestine and potentially having a a doctor from Palestine come over to the UK to give a presentation.
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And his membership of such a group also seems consistent with some of his other activist work, such as giving speeches at Quds Day rallies, working for Press TV, and having friendly meetings with Hamas.

And then finally since Corbyn has being Labour leader has the Labour Party adopted any anti semitic policies, NO. The party has been quick enough to kick out anyone who has been anti semitic(I image there's a unit dedicated to just Ken Livingston).
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Again, I'm not claiming he is an anti-semite or plans to implement anti-semitic policies. I'm saying he doesn't take it all that seriously and regards the presence of these people in the anti-Israel circles he runs in as a minor irritant (at most) in the face of the cause he's promoting.
 
Sweet Square said:
Firstly because of the power dynamics. Anti semitism is of course a problem in the UK but today far right racism is far more dangerous(A Labour MP was murder by a far right extremist and the far right extremist who drove a van into a crowd of muslims, killing one man and was hoping that he might have being able to kill both Cobyn and Sadiq Khan as well). And then we have the state led racism - such as deportations, arms selling etc, it really wasn't that long ago that the government order vans to driven around the capital city asking the public to report illegal immigrates. The Facebook group is essentially anti semitic losers posting anti semitic youtube videos, they have no actual political power.

Secondly while I haven't read the full report(It's very long)in The Guardian article shows no evidence of Corbyn saying anything anti semitic, Corbyn says he was added to the group rather than actively joined it, and again according to Corbyn he only posted when tagged. His posts seem to be similar to his activist work - having a vote on recognising Palestine and potentially having a a doctor from Palestine come over to the UK to give a presentation.

And then finally since Corbyn has being Labour leader has the Labour Party adopted any anti semitic policies, NO. The party has been quick enough to kick out anyone who has been anti semitic(I image there's a unit dedicated to just Ken Livingston).
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Aren't Islamic terrorists far right extremists too ?
 
Mozza said:
Yes really. You post racist anti Palestinian shite on these boards but that doesn't make the caf as a whole racist
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What if the founder of the Cafe invited a bunch of racists to join and repeatedly posted links to articles and other stuff written by racists?
 
2cents said:
I don't think the power differential point, however true it may be, is relevant here - it's not a competition over which form of racism is worse or has the worse impact, and avoiding associating with adherents of either or any form of racism is really not a hard thing to do. In any case, while what you say may be true for the UK, it is certainly more questionable when looking across Europe and many other places, where Jewish institutions require armed security and Jews have been targeted repeatedly in terror attacks.
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I used the differential power as a reason why the story hasn't really been picked up, as you suggested

2cents said:
Nobody on the Cafe interested?
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2cents said:
There is no evidence of him posting antisemitic content. Nobody has claimed he did, and I'm not claiming he is an anti-semite (nor is the report).

There is an example given in the report of him commenting on a link which doesn't show him being tagged (part 2, p. 30); however perhaps he was tagged in one of the unseen comments.



And his membership of such a group also seems consistent with some of his other activist work, such as giving speeches at Quds Day rallies, working for Press TV, and having friendly meetings with Hamas.



Again, I'm not claiming he is an anti-semite or plans to implement anti-semitic policies. I'm saying he doesn't take it all that seriously and regards the presence of these people in the anti-Israel circles he runs in as a minor irritant (at most) in the face of the cause he's promoting.
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So what's the story then ? Politician get's invited to Palestine Facebook group, he has a couple of posts(None of which are anti semitic), the people in the group post anti semitic video's and memes but the politician claims to have no idea of these posts and condemns any hatred towards jewish people.
 
Sweet Square said:
I used the differential power as a reason why the story hasn't really been picked up, as you suggested
So what's the story then ? Politician get's invited to Palestine Facebook group, he has a couple of posts(None of which are anti semitic), the people in the group post anti semitic video's and memes but the politician claims to have no idea of these posts and condemns any hatred towards jewish people.
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Then he's a fecking idiot either way.
What if he had been invited to Stormfront and made the same error of judgement?
 
Mozza said:
Nope

Your report was written by a guy who says anti-Zionism = anti-sematism, I'd question his whole report on that bit of stupidity alone
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Why don't you just admit you haven't read a single word of the report?

Sweet Square said:
So what's the story then ? Politician get's invited to Palestine Facebook group, he has a couple of posts(None of which are anti semitic), the people in the group post anti semitic video's and memes but the politician claims to have no idea of these posts and condemns any hatred towards jewish people.
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Yes, just some random politician with no national profile and without any history of hanging out with anti-semites of the exact type that make up the membership of this group - which he mysteriously left just after getting a massive promotion :rolleyes:
 
It's a family affair..

Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-at-19.02.19.png
 
Mozza said:
Read bits of it. Same old shite from people keen to distract from the apartheid state of Israel
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Right. So you missed the page-long "Definition of antisemitism" used in the report at the very start of each part?

Tell me, what did you think of the part that showed the founder of the group posting links to articles by Gilad Atzmon and posting comments supportive of him? Any thoughts on the fact the Atzmon was one of the first members of the group?

For those who don't know, this is Gilad Atzmon:

I%2Bdespise%2BJews.jpg


Here he is blaming Grenfell on the Jews:

DC_3ue5XcAA8Q52.jpg
 
2cents said:
Yes, just some random politician with no national profile and without any history of hanging out with anti-semites of the exact type that make up the membership of this group - which he mysteriously left just after getting a massive promotion :rolleyes:
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All the utter shit bags Corbyn has met at various campaigns and meetings(Or hanging out as you call it) has been for one propose for the rights of Palestinians. He's not actual a anti semite and if you do think that then cheers for wasting both our time.


The story is worth noting but it is about man who didn't routinely check a Facebook page(Another major factor as to why people don't care about this story).
 
Sweet Square said:
All the utter shit bags Corbyn has met at various campaigns and meetings(Or hanging out as you call it) has been for one propose for the rights of Palestinians
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Right, thank you, this is exactly what I've been arguing - he doesn't care about moving in these circles as he thinks the bigger cause is more important. Is that not a position worth some serious debate? Would we ignore that argument coming from a politician of different political leanings?

Sweet Square said:
He's not actual a anti semite and if you do think that then cheers for wasting both our time
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It's definitely a waste of your time if you're going to post without reading what I've explicitly spelled out in my replies to you.
 
2cents said:
Right. So you missed the page-long "Definition of antisemitism" used in the report at the very start of each part?
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Read it, its trying very hard to pretend this is not about defending Israel


Tell me, what did you think of the part that showed the founder of the group posting links to articles by Gilad Atzmon and posting comments supportive of him? Any thoughts on the fact the Atzmon was one of the first members of the group?

For those who don't know, this is Gilad Atzmon:

I%2Bdespise%2BJews.jpg


Here he is blaming Grenfell on the Jews:

DC_3ue5XcAA8Q52.jpg
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There are crazies all over the internet
 
Mozza said:
Read it, its trying very hard to pretend this is not about defending Israel
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No, it does the exact opposite:

WnhebdO.png



There are crazies all over the internet
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Indeed there are. I expected to find Cafe members defending Corbyn on the basis that he was completely unaware of the nature of the group - that is certainly possible although I find it implausible personally. I didn't expect to find anyone here defending the actual group.
 
2cents said:
No, it does the exact opposite:

WnhebdO.png
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Like I said, pretending

Indeed there are. I expected to find Cafe members defending Corbyn on the basis that he was completely unaware of the nature of the group - that is certainly possible although I find it implausible personally. I didn't expect to find anyone here defending the actual group.
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I wouldn't take the word of a fanatical defender of Israel to be a full reflection of the group
 
2cents said:
Right, thank you, this is exactly what I've been arguing - he doesn't care about moving in these circles as he thinks the bigger cause is more important.
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Well in this case he claims to have no idea of Facebook pages posting anti semitic stuff.

2cents said:
Would we ignore that argument coming from a politician of different political leanings?
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It would depend on what they were arguing. It's pretty clear Corbyn wants a peaceful solution to the ''conflict'' between Israel and Palestine, thus in trying to get that he has met some anti semitic shit bags(I image he met some awful shits when looking for a solution 70's between Northern Ireland and England). Should this be debated, maybe if you want to but to me anyway it's a bit boring.
 
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