[OrcaFat]

1. DDG is still a good stopper and frequently makes great saves.

2. His command of his area is generally poor. Without needing to be specific about which crosses he should or couldn’t have come for, he doesn’t claim as many high balls as he should.

3. His passing and general ability with the ball at his feet or being passed to him is poor.

4. He costs us more goals than he saves us….?

 

[Olecurls99]

Over the course of a season, which do you think will result in more goals conceded? A keeper who attempts to come out and claim everything he realistically could but will invariably get it wrong on the odd occasion, or a keeper who sits on his line and allows opposition players to get far more close range shots, especially as they know he won't come out so they can place the ball closer and in more dangerous positions? Also bear in mind the first option will also then regularly have the ball in his hand in a position where we can often launch counter-attacks.

That isn't really an answer either. Do you think a goalkeeper is generally better off conceding a chance from six yards out and trying to save it or trying to cut out a cross into his six yard box to prevent the chance in the first place? As in over the course of a season which will lead to better outcomes? There's very much a right answer to this question, it isn't that complicated.

Well I'd like my keeper to take each situation on it's own merits rather than go into a game with a default setting. You're right Sully, it isn't complicated.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Hard not to wonder if we wouldn’t concede more shots from inside our six yard box than every other team in the league if we replaced De Gea with a keeper who even has an average command of that six yard box.

We've also conceded the ninth fewest shots in the league overall, so it's absolutely mental that we're the worst for shots conceded in the six yard box.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We've also conceded the ninth fewest shots in the league overall, so it's absolutely mental that we're the worst for shots conceded in the six yard box.

Jesus wept.

 

[Real Name]

Well I'd like my keeper to take each situation on it's own merits rather than go into a game with a default setting. You're right Sully, it isn't complicated.

I like how you're avoiding answering a question you've been asked by more than one poster.

 

[sullydnl]

Well I'd like my keeper to take each situation on it's own merits rather than go into a game with a default setting. You're right Sully, it isn't complicated.

That's fine. And accepting that the goalkeeper should react to each situation on its own merits, which of the two options do you think tends to be the correct one the overwhelming majority of the time?

 

[Olecurls99]

I like how you're avoiding answering a question you've been asked by more than one poster.

Why thank you but I thought I did answer it?

 

[Real Name]

Why thank you but I thought I did answer it?

That's fine. And accepting that the goalkeeper should react to each situation on its own merits, which of the two options do you think tends to be the correct one the overwhelming majority of the time?

I wonder how you'll avoid this one.

 

[Olecurls99]

That's fine. And accepting that the goalkeeper should react to each situation on its own merits, which of the two options do you think tends to be the correct one the overwhelming majority of the time?

I have no idea but in the 2 instances I highlighted it turned out to be the wrong option.

 

[sullydnl]

I have no idea but in the 2 instances I highlighted it turned out to be the wrong option.

You have no idea whether it's generally easier for a goalkeeper to catch a cross in their own six yard box or save an attempt from six yards out?

 

[Olecurls99]

You have no idea whether it's generally easier for a goalkeeper to catch a cross in their own six yard box or save an attempt from six yards out?

It depends on the speed of the cross, the accuracy of the cross, the position of the 2 attackers.

Allison certainly struggled with those crosses Saturday. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Jesus wept.

As if the point needed emphasising any more, I actually made a fairly simple graph demonstrating how far outside of the norm we are here:



The data collection process was pretty slapdash, I'll admit, but it's almost certainly bulletproof enough that the overall picture painted would be the same even if it were more robust.

Fulham and Bournemouth are the only other sides who deviate significantly from the trend to even close to the extent that we do. We are crazy bad at defending our six yard area, despite being fairly decent at preventing shots more generally.

 

[sullydnl]

It depends on the speed of the cross, the accuracy of the cross, the position of the 2 attackers.

Allison certainly struggled with those crosses Saturday.

Yes, it does depend on all those things. And yet one of the two is on average much easier than the other. Which do you think it is?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

As if the point needed emphasising any more, I actually made a fairly simple graph demonstrating how far outside of the norm we are here:



The data collection process was pretty slapdash, I'll admit, but it's almost certainly bulletproof enough that the overall picture painted would be the same even if it were more robust.

Fulham and Bournemouth are the only other sides who deviate significantly from the trend to even close to the extent that we do. We are crazy bad at defending our six yard area, despite being fairly decent at preventing shots more generally.

Interesting. Thanks. The Spurs/Lloris position on that graph is a bit counterintuitive?

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Interesting. Thanks. The Spurs/Lloris position on that graph is a bit counterintuitive?

I would say, for balance, that I don't think it's correct to draw conclusions about a team or any individual player just from this graph. I'd more say that, in the case specifically of United, it's further evidence of a weakness in the team that exists in no small part due to a flaw in De Gea's game that's been prevalent for a while now.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I would say, for balance, that I don't think it's correct to draw conclusions about a team or any individual player just from this graph. I'd more say that, in the case specifically of United, it's further evidence of a weakness in the team that exists in no small part due to a flaw in De Gea's game that's been prevalent for a while now.

I guess having an aerially dominant CB (or two) is also a big help. I’d be curious to know our equivalent stats with Maguire in the team.

 

[Real Name]

Yes, it does depend on all those things. And yet one of the two is on average much easier than the other. Which do you think it is?

This is great. You have to give it to him, he's like a cat around hot porridge on the subject.

 

[Oranges038]

I like how you're avoiding answering a question you've been asked by more than one poster.

A while ago, that poster had no interest in stats, "stats schmats" I think it was. Was replied with a tweet by John Harrison and then proceeded to preach from it and post it I don't know how many times. Even though it was about 6 months old and others based on data from last season.

They literally have no reasonable arguments, but point to individual goals concded by Allison or Ederson to try and prove why DDG should stay on his line. Totally ignoring all the times they actually successfully claim high balls to prevent chances.

I've never said it before.

But that poster should probably just be banned from this thread

 

[Sylar]

I've never said it before.

But that poster should probably just be banned from this thread

I don't think he should be banned , but I've seen how he can't discuss other than just throwing out random statements, like trying to divert that people are blaming ddg for the teams performance despite me asking him three times to show where that happened. I wanted to engage in that discussion, not for point scoring but to see if a serious discussion could be had but now I know my answer.

Seen it a lot here, a tactic to divert discussion. I personally don't understand putting a player above the team. I can be respectful for what ddg has done for us but at the same time acknowledge overall weaknesses.
And it's always bizarre reading them saying 'why do you only pick on ddg here, In the ddg thread' completely ignoring that mctominay, Sancho, etc threads.

 

[Longshanks]

Seen

Better than giving an open goal. Of course it is

Against Sunday league level maybe. Give a prem quality striker a full site of goal six yards out there Gonna score 9 out of 10. As a keeper your relying a poor finish straight at you otherwise your have no chance. And most prem strikers will either blast past you or direct it into the corner without even thinking about it. Even if you save it there a good chance of a rebound or it goes for a corner so it's not job done.

If stop that cross not only does it stop the chance from happening it also stops the attack dead and it's a turnover in possession. It's win win win win.

The only advantage to staying on your line is that you won't like silly and leave a open goal. So it's purely vanity basically. Keeper isn't willing to take a risk for a big gain because he might look silly. Sums up De Gea quite well really.

 

[Olecurls99]

A while ago, that poster had no interest in stats, "stats schmats" I think it was. Was replied with a tweet by John Harrison and then proceeded to preach from it and post it I don't know how many times. Even though it was about 6 months old and others based on data from last season.

They literally have no reasonable arguments, but point to individual goals concded by Allison or Ederson to try and prove why DDG should stay on his line. Totally ignoring all the times they actually successfully claim high balls to prevent chances.

I've never said it before.

But that poster should probably just be banned from this thread

Banned?! This isn't the first time I've said this to you today but what are you on about?

 

[PSV]

As if the point needed emphasising any more, I actually made a fairly simple graph demonstrating how far outside of the norm we are here:



The data collection process was pretty slapdash, I'll admit, but it's almost certainly bulletproof enough that the overall picture painted would be the same even if it were more robust.

Fulham and Bournemouth are the only other sides who deviate significantly from the trend to even close to the extent that we do. We are crazy bad at defending our six yard area, despite being fairly decent at preventing shots more generally.

Whats a bit crazy about this graph is that this is new as of this season. Maybe there's other reasons for it as well? Who/what is new to our team this year compared to previous years?

% of shots conceded inside 6 yard box vs total shots (Manchester United):
2009-10: 5% (rank 20)
2010-11: 5% (rank 17)
2011-12: 6% (rank 16)
2012-13: 8% (rank 4)
2013-14: 5% (rank 17)
2014-15: 9% (rank 1)
2015-16: 6% (rank 12)
2016-17: 7% (rank 11)
2017-18: 7% (rank 13)
2018-19: 8% (rank 11)
2019-20: 8% (rank 15)
2020-21: 8% (rank 7)
2021-22: 7% (rank 16)
2022-23: 14% (rank 1)
(source: whoscored.com)

 

[Oranges038]

I don't think he should be banned , but I've seen how he can't discuss other than just throwing out random statements, like trying to divert that people are blaming ddg for the teams performance despite me asking him three times to show where that happened. I wanted to engage in that discussion, not for point scoring but to see if a serious discussion could be had but now I know my answer.

Seen it a lot here, a tactic to divert discussion. I personally don't understand putting a player above the team. I can be respectful for what ddg has done for us but at the same time acknowledge overall weaknesses.
And it's always bizarre reading them saying 'why do you only pick on ddg here, In the ddg thread' completely ignoring that mctominay, Sancho, etc threads.

I've been there. It's pointless.

There's no discussion to be had.

I've seen another poster be banned from another thread for not arguing in good faith.

I've placed it on ignore anyway.

 

[Oranges038]

Banned?! This isn't the first time I've said this to you today but what are you on about?

Yeah.

Because you do not have anything constructive to add to any conversation, just diversionary bollocks.

Ignored.

 

[sullydnl]

Banned?! This isn't the first time I've said this to you today but what are you on about?

You can get banned from threads for trolling or not arguing in good faith.

With that in mind, can you answer the below question please?

Yes, it does depend on all those things. And yet one of the two is on average much easier than the other. Which do you think it is?

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Whats a bit crazy about this graph is that this is new as of this season. Maybe there's other reasons for it as well? Who/what is new to our team this year compared to previous years?

% of shots conceded inside 6 yard box vs total shots (Manchester United):
2009-10: 5% (rank 20)
2010-11: 5% (rank 17)
2011-12: 6% (rank 16)
2012-13: 8% (rank 4)
2013-14: 5% (rank 17)
2014-15: 9% (rank 1)
2015-16: 6% (rank 12)
2016-17: 7% (rank 11)
2017-18: 7% (rank 13)
2018-19: 8% (rank 11)
2019-20: 8% (rank 15)
2020-21: 8% (rank 7)
2021-22: 7% (rank 16)
2022-23: 14% (rank 1)
(source: whoscored.com)

I mean yeah, I'd imagine Licha's lack of height is also a possible contributing factor. (Although percentages are perhaps not the right metric to measure this; absolute numbers are better here)

The point is, though, that we're not going to replace Licha and rightly so. We're going to have to deal with the fact that our centre halves aren't the most aerially dominant any more, especially if we want to sell Maguire.

De Gea's lack of command of the six yard area is likely to mean we'll keep struggling to deal with balls in and around that area unless we either rework our defence AGAIN, or unless we finally sign a keeper who is better at commanding that area. I know which I'd prefer.

 

[Sylar]

You can get banned from threads for trolling or not arguing in good faith

With that in mind, can you answer the below question please?

Good luck

Whats a bit crazy about this graph is that this is new as of this season. Maybe there's other reasons for it as well? Who/what is new to our team this year compared to previous years?

% of shots conceded inside 6 yard box vs total shots (Manchester United):
2009-10: 5% (rank 20)
2010-11: 5% (rank 17)
2011-12: 6% (rank 16)
2012-13: 8% (rank 4)
2013-14: 5% (rank 17)
2014-15: 9% (rank 1)
2015-16: 6% (rank 12)
2016-17: 7% (rank 11)
2017-18: 7% (rank 13)
2018-19: 8% (rank 11)
2019-20: 8% (rank 15)
2020-21: 8% (rank 7)
2021-22: 7% (rank 16)
2022-23: 14% (rank 1)
(source: whoscored.com)

Im wondering if its because theres more emphasis on trying to play out the back. We see it with goal kicks where we have basically our back three within our six yard box, and were dropping deeper to try assist with passing. As were deeper on this, opposition can push higher to try turn over the ball.


I do think more teams are latching onto the fact (sorta like it was in season 1) that they can crowd around for set pieces too, and push higher for the turnover.

 

[Olecurls99]

Seen


Against Sunday league level maybe. Give a prem quality striker a full site of goal six yards out there Gonna score 9 out of 10. As a keeper your relying a poor finish straight at you otherwise your have no chance. And most prem strikers will either blast past you or direct it into the corner without even thinking about it. Even if you save it there a good chance of a rebound or it goes for a corner so it's not job done.

If stop that cross not only does it stop the chance from happening it also stops the attack dead and it's a turnover in possession. It's win win win win.

The only advantage to staying on your line is that you won't like silly and leave a open goal. So it's purely vanity basically. Keeper isn't willing to take a risk for a big gain because he might look silly. Sums up De Gea quite well really.

But this isn't just any keeper, this is one of the best shot stoppers of all time.

Seeing as though he has faced the most 6 yard box shots there must be a stat for how many he has saved. I bet it's better than 10%.

 

[Olecurls99]

You can get banned from threads for trolling or not arguing in good faith.

With that in mind, can you answer the below question please?

I'm not arguing in bad faith or trolling. I'm claiming that there are too many variables to give you a definitive answer.

I'm sorry if my genuine and widely held belief, that Dave De Gea is having a good season, is getting in the way of the weekly cluster**** that goes on in this strange thread.

 

[RVN1991]

This thread has honestly gotten pretty embarrasing. Opposition fans are being used as a reason for us to shit on our own player. The same has happened to Bruno and Maguire. Several of the people screaming about agendas in those threads are the most active critics in here.
Yes we should absolutely upgrade on De Gea. But to blame him for us losing to Newcastle in a match where we had no possession let alone made any kind of goal threat in the other end is downright embarrasing.
That match was the poster child for why we cannot continue to play without a proper midfield and that we are desperate after a proper midfield, whenever Casemiro and Eriksen are gone.
Imagine we swapped De Gea for Raya in that match. Would he command the box more? Sure. Would we still have had this low possession and a shite display and lost the game? Absolutely.
De Gea isnt good enough thats pretty clear, but to use this match and try to paint a picture where he is the main culprit is downright nonsense.

But but Mctominay is shit because de gea can't pass the ball!!


Great point btw. agree completely.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm not arguing in bad faith or trolling. I'm claiming that there are too many variables to give you a definitive answer.

No worries.

So are you saying that you don't understand football well enough to be tell whether catching a ball in your six yard box is generally easier than making a point blank six yard save, or that people generally wouldn't be able to answer that question?

 

[Remember the geese]

Seeing as though he has faced the most 6 yard box shots there must be a stat for how many he has saved. I bet it's better than 10%.

So potentially 8 or 9 out of 10 shots from within the 6 yard box are scored against him. I would wager that the more efficient tactic would be to prevent these high scoring opportunities from occurring in the first place. One way would be to have a goalkeeper who can come off his line and deal with crosses so close to his goal. These guys are allowed to use their hands. That's a big advantage.

 

[Olecurls99]

No worries.

So are you saying that you don't understand football well enough to be tell whether catching a ball in your six yard box is generally easier than making a point blank six yard save, or that people generally wouldn't be able to answer that question?

Has the ball been gently lobbed and flown on gossamer wings by the keeper's head or been fizzed 5 yards away from the keeper's position? It kind of depends.

I really don't know how better to illustrate the difficulty in answering your question than that but maybe I'm just trolling.

I like how you cut out the other point I made. Perhaps your arguing in bad faith.

 

[sullydnl]

Has the ball been gently lobbed and flown on gossamer wings by the keeper's head or been fizzed 5 yards away from the keeper's position? It kind of depends.

I really don't know how better to illustrate the difficulty in answering your question than that but maybe I'm just trolling.

Those questions would apply if I was asking about a specific incident.

I'm asking whether in general, on average, based on your fundamental understanding of football having watched it for years and years, you think a goalkeeper will typically have a harder time trying to catch a cross that comes extremely close to his goal or trying to save an attempt on goal from point blank range.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Whats a bit crazy about this graph is that this is new as of this season. Maybe there's other reasons for it as well? Who/what is new to our team this year compared to previous years?

% of shots conceded inside 6 yard box vs total shots (Manchester United):
2009-10: 5% (rank 20)
2010-11: 5% (rank 17)
2011-12: 6% (rank 16)
2012-13: 8% (rank 4)
2013-14: 5% (rank 17)
2014-15: 9% (rank 1)
2015-16: 6% (rank 12)
2016-17: 7% (rank 11)
2017-18: 7% (rank 13)
2018-19: 8% (rank 11)
2019-20: 8% (rank 15)
2020-21: 8% (rank 7)
2021-22: 7% (rank 16)
2022-23: 14% (rank 1)
(source: whoscored.com)

Ah. That’s really interesting. As I said above, with regards to Spurs looking good on this metric, despite Lloris being a bit of a line hugger, perhaps having aerially dominant CBs are the most important factor to look good on this metric? A downside to signing an (excellent) short arse central defender?

 

[Lay]

I'm not arguing in bad faith or trolling. I'm claiming that there are too many variables to give you a definitive answer.

I'm sorry if my genuine and widely held belief, that Dave De Gea is having a good season, is getting in the way of the weekly cluster**** that goes on in this strange thread.

Should DDG be given a new contract that keeps him as the number 1?

 

[Based Adnan]

Yes we should absolutely upgrade on De Gea. But to blame him for us losing to Newcastle in a match where we had no possession let alone made any kind of goal threat in the other end is downright embarrasing.

Why does this strawman argument keep being brought up? Can people quote one single post where De Gea is being blamed for the result?

 

[JB7]

Ah. That’s really interesting. As I said above, with regards to Spurs looking good on this metric, despite Lloris being a bit of a line hugger, perhaps having aerially dominant CBs are the most important factor to look good on this metric? A downside to signing an (excellent) short arse central defender?

Lloris isn't really a line hugger though, he's just below average at dealing with crosses (14th best percentage of goalkeepers in the league this season, 13th last season). He's still dealing with a much higher percentage of crosses than De Gea, 6.2% this season vs 2.8%.

Below average is still a significant improvement.

 

[Marwood]

Better than giving an open goal. Of course it is

I don’t think they're the only two choices but you can't bank on your keeper making saves within 6 yards. If a striker does his job right no goalkeeper on the planet is making saves from that distance.

 

[Sylar]

Why does this strawman argument keep being brought up? Can people quote one single post where De Gea is being blamed for the result?

I've been waiting since Sunday so good luck

Should DDG be given a new contract that keeps him as the number 1?

I'm actually fascinated that rangnick mentioned we need about ten new players and goalkeepers is not a position we have a problem with
And more so with Eth if he renews ddg and keeps him as number one next season.