Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Mb194dc]

It's coming out confirmed today, again, that the EU won't remove the backstop.

So we wait to see the next moves from the government. There is no plan at present.

Grieve amendment could be interesting if it provides for withdrawing article 50 rather than extending it. I do not believe the EU27 will agree an extension except for a second referendum or general election.

The government could well face another no confidence motion from Corbyn soon if they don't have any plan other than running down time to no deal.

 

[JPRouve]

Look I didn’t vote leave but I do have some sympathy with leavers that say we need a FTA and the right to strike deals of our own. No problem, just crash out on WTO rules. Enter left stage the GFA which was overlooked by the EU in A50. So there was EU legislation that failed to take account of all its member states. So now the UK can’t leave on wto without going against the GFA. Some bespoke arrangement is necessary. Else you are saying that A50 is available to everyone except the UK. If the UK invokes A50 it has to accept an EU construct in the form of a CU and if it accepts that, it can’t do its own deals.

The UK wants to be out of the EU, wants the unilateral ability to make trade deals, freedom to implement divergent rules but also don't want a border with ROI, don't want freedom of movements, don't want to respect the ECJ and don't want to be separated from NI with which they already have a maritime boundary. And somehow you talk about A50, which is totally irrelevant, and the EU preventing the UK from leaving. The UK is preventing itself from leaving by not accepting the consequences of its actions.

 

[Adisa]

The UK wants to be out of the EU, wants the unilateral ability to make trade deals, freedom to implement divergent rules but also don't want a border with ROI, don't want freedom of movements, don't want to respect the ECJ and don't want to be separated from NI with which they already have a maritime boundary. And somehow you talk about A50, which is totally irrelevant, and the EU preventing the UK from leaving. The UK is preventing itself from leaving by not accepting the consequences of its actions.

Bingo.

 

[Massive Spanner]

This one is both hilarious and depressing.

EU: posted workers must be given the same pay and conditions as local workers.
UK: You're kidding! The whole POINT of posted workers is to undercut the locals and undermine their employment rights.

 

[Honest John]

The UK wants to be out of the EU, wants the unilateral ability to make trade deals, freedom to implement divergent rules but also don't want a border with ROI, don't want freedom of movements, don't want to respect the ECJ and don't want to be separated from NI with which they already have a maritime boundary. And somehow you talk about A50, which is totally irrelevant, and the EU preventing the UK from leaving. The UK is preventing itself from leaving by not accepting the consequences of its actions.

Why have 27 EU countries signed up to the WA if they say they have the ROI,s interest in mind? Either they are confident of a solution to the border problem appearing during the Future Relationship agreement or they see no solution and fully intend to keep the UK tied to the EU in perpetuity. In which case the Brexiteers have called it correctly.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Why have 27 EU countries signed up to the WA if they say they have the ROI,s interest in mind? Either they are confident of a solution to the border problem appearing during the Future Relationship agreement or they see no solution and fully intend to keep the UK tied to the EU in perpetuity. In which case the Brexiteers have called it correctly.

The EU don't see the border problem as theirs to solve, because it's the UK who are causing the problem by voting to leave and now refusing to adhere to EU rules in order to ensure the border isn't there. They've already negotiated with the EU to try stop there being the border, and the UK went and rejected that too. Exactly what more are the EU supposed to do here?

That bolded part is the kind of silly mentality that's caused all of this mess. Blame the EU for the problems you've caused.

 

[mitChley]

the sense is that there was a referendum and however stupid we think the people who voted to leave are, the genie is out of the bottle and it won’t be put back. If they are fecked over I truly believe lives will be lost. But hey if that’s worth avoiding any economic hit then so be it eh. What will the questions be? Do you seriously think that 17.4 million people after having been called stupid for three years are suddenly going to admit the error of their ways and vote against leaving in some way.

According to the government if we have no-deal Brexit then lives will also be lost

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-suicide-warning-if-exit-turns-chaotic-rjlhwb2n0

 

[Kentonio]

Why have 27 EU countries signed up to the WA if they say they have the ROI,s interest in mind? Either they are confident of a solution to the border problem appearing during the Future Relationship agreement or they see no solution and fully intend to keep the UK tied to the EU in perpetuity. In which case the Brexiteers have called it correctly.

Typical that the UK expect the EU to provide solutions to a UK based problem that is only occuring because of the UKs own decisions. Leavers clamour to 'take back control' yet apparently are completely incapable of sorting out their own problems.

 

[RedChip]

Most of them probably just see NI as a financial burden and nothing else.

It isn't a fair question though, is it? How much do people in any one area of the UK care about another area, hundreds of miles away? For example, do people in Hampshire really care about Lincolnshire?

It is up to the government to take care of all the areas and people of the UK, especially those with significant issues like NI.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It isn't a fair question though, is it? How much do people in any one area of the UK care about another area, hundreds of miles away? For example, do people in Hampshire really care about Lincolnshire?

It is up to the government to take care of all the areas and people of the UK, especially those with significant issues like NI.

I was talking about the MPs

 

[JPRouve]

Why have 27 EU countries signed up to the WA if they say they have the ROI,s interest in mind? Either they are confident of a solution to the border problem appearing during the Future Relationship agreement or they see no solution and fully intend to keep the UK tied to the EU in perpetuity. In which case the Brexiteers have called it correctly.

You realize that ROI is one of the 27 EU countries, you think that they don't have their own interest in mind? ROI are preparing for No deal, what they are not prepared to do is to go back on the GFA, the UK decided to leave and not respect NI's wishes so they will be the only one taking that responsibility.

The UK are still free to leave but it will be without deal, with a backstop for NI or with NI in a different custom area. After all, Brexit means Brexit.

 

[RedChip]

I was talking about the MPs

That's not clear in your text, but even they cannot be blamed for prioritising the immediate interests of their constituency. Gov't, on the other hand, should care.

 

[Smores]

Look I didn’t vote leave but I do have some sympathy with leavers that say we need a FTA and the right to strike deals of our own. No problem, just crash out on WTO rules. Enter left stage the GFA which was overlooked by the EU in A50. So there was EU legislation that failed to take account of all its member states. So now the UK can’t leave on wto without going against the GFA. Some bespoke arrangement is necessary. Else you are saying that A50 is available to everyone except the UK. If the UK invokes A50 it has to accept an EU construct in the form of a CU and if it accepts that, it can’t do its own deals.

Well yeah that's exactly it but that's down to the GFA not the EU or A50. The moment the GFA was signed the options became limited to a customs union or a border down the irish sea.
A50 works fine but it's implementation is always going to be constrained by the countries own laws and treaties. Apart from A50 saying 'nah ignore a border feck it it'll be reet' there's not much else it can do.

As far as I'm aware the soft border down the irish sea and checking at ports doesn't go against the GFA(?) and most polling I've seen lean towards it being accepted by the NI people. Why should the EU bend over when there's such an obvious solution at hand?

 

[Rajma]

@Honest John having problems with a simple logic.

1) UK signed to all those international treaties
2) It now unilaterally withdraws itself from one of them
3) It still has to comply with all other existing agreements
4) Onus is on the UK to not break other international treaties it has singed up for, especially, as there are solutions out there

"Brexiters were right all long", get a grip.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So it is a Hotel California

No. That’s such a stupid catchphrase. Did Farage come up with it? Clearly countries are able to leave the EU. Britain will more than likely end up leaving despite their incompetence in getting Brexit across the line. It is possible to leave. It’s just a very stupid thing to do.

 

[Honest John]

So every EU law should have clauses for every eventuality of every member state? Given most member states don't have just one land border with another member state but multiple with different histories between each relation any law would need to have 10s of thousands of clauses (I'm not exaggerating).

Anyways, A50 and the GFA have very little to do with each other. It is the state that the UK achieves after A50 is over that is breaching the GFA, not A50. And if it didn't do that A50 wouldn't deliver a way to leave the EU. It's solely on the UK to achieve a state of things that doesn't breach agreements the UK has entered into.

The GFA isn't like labelling on soup. What if the UK was not a member of the EU when the GFA was signed. Who's responsibility would it have been to keep the border open and find a solution. A50 overlooked an international peace treaty and even if the UK eventually stays in the EU, that should be legally addressed.

 

[Massive Spanner]

That's not clear in your text, but even they cannot be blamed for prioritising the immediate interests of their constituency. Gov't, on the other hand, should care.

It's quite clear if you read the post I was responding to.

 

[JPRouve]

The GFA isn't like labelling on soup. What if the UK was not a member of the EU when the GFA was signed. Who's responsibility would it have been to keep the border open and find a solution. A50 overlooked an international peace treaty and even if the UK eventually stays in the EU, that should be legally addressed.

Art.50 has nothing to do with it, this article simply stipulates that if you want to leave you just have to formally express it and after two years of transition all deals with the EU are voided.

 

[Honest John]

Typical that the UK expect the EU to provide solutions to a UK based problem that is only occuring because of the UKs own decisions. Leavers clamour to 'take back control' yet apparently are completely incapable of sorting out their own problems.

It is not a UK based problem. It involves two current EU member states and it provides for the most open border in the entire bloc. If it is the legal right for any member state to leave then A50 should provide for something as significant as that. Lets face it the EU are not short on drumming out legislation. It was overlooked and therefore there should be some room for refinement of the backstop to allow the UK get a WA and avoid crashing out and a hard border.

 

[Big-Red]

It is not a UK based problem. It involves two current EU member states and it provides for the most open border in the entire bloc. If it is the legal right for any member state to leave then A50 should provide for something as significant as that. Lets face it the EU are not short on drumming out legislation. It was overlooked and therefore there should be some room for refinement of the backstop to allow the UK get a WA and avoid crashing out and a hard border.

The British person that drafted Article 50 probably should have thought of these things.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It is not a UK based problem. It involves two current EU member states and it provides for the most open border in the entire bloc. If it is the legal right for any member state to leave then A50 should provide for something as significant as that. Lets face it the EU are not short on drumming out legislation. It was overlooked and therefore there should be some room for refinement of the backstop to allow the UK get a WA and avoid crashing out and a hard border.

It is totally the UK's problem. If they don't want to break the GFA they have to stay in the CU which seemingly parliament wants to do anyway.

The Irish border isn't only the border between the UK and Ireland but the border between the EU and the UK. Thought the UK wanted control of all their borders, or only when it suits the UK.

 

[Kentonio]

It is not a UK based problem. It involves two current EU member states and it provides for the most open border in the entire bloc. If it is the legal right for any member state to leave then A50 should provide for something as significant as that. Lets face it the EU are not short on drumming out legislation. It was overlooked and therefore there should be some room for refinement of the backstop to allow the UK get a WA and avoid crashing out and a hard border.

It involves two states, but it is overwhelmingly a UK based problem.

As for the rest of what you said, that's ridiculous. Article 50 should have provided a solution to putting at risk a peace agreement that took many years and incredibly fraught negotiations by those involved? Just in case the UK ever decided to commit economic suicide and leave a union it had been part of for 40 years?

How goddamn self-entitled has our stupid, vainglorious country actually become?! We have morons and deluded idiots all across parliamentary leadership, we expect other people to solve all our problems for us, and when it all goes to shit, apparently its always someone elses fault. It's pathetic.

 

[Honest John]

No. That’s such a stupid catchphrase. Did Farage come up with it? Clearly countries are able to leave the EU. Britain will more than likely end up leaving despite their incompetence in getting Brexit across the line. It is possible to leave. It’s just a very stupid thing to do.

That may be the case. But if we are democrats then we should make every effort to see that it is respected. If NI or Scotland, Wales were given a referendum to leave the UK and won then there would be as many saying they were stupid to leave. Would they be?

 

[do.ob]

It is not a UK based problem. It involves two current EU member states and it provides for the most open border in the entire bloc. If it is the legal right for any member state to leave then A50 should provide for something as significant as that. Lets face it the EU are not short on drumming out legislation. It was overlooked and therefore there should be some room for refinement of the backstop to allow the UK get a WA and avoid crashing out and a hard border.

You expect A50 to account for every treaty one of the 28 member states might have with another country? How do you think that's possible? You just negotiate dozens or hundreds of new agreements just incase one of the members might want to leave? What would even be the point if a country opts out of the very same EU guidelines when its leaving?
You either have regulatory alignment or you have a hard border. You're just joining May and Corbyn in their refusal of simple logic and simple realities and demand some magical form of refinement when there is no way to refine the rules of logic.

That may be the case. But if we are democrats then we should make every effort to see that it is respected. If NI or Scotland, Wales were given a referendum to leave the UK and won then there would be as many saying they were stupid to leave. Would they be?

People say that Brexit is stupid because they see a net benefit in being an EU member, not because they think that leaving any union is stupid.
Scotland, Wales or NI leaving the UK to eventually join the EU would be the literal opposite of Brexit.

 

[rumac]

The GFA isn't like labelling on soup. What if the UK was not a member of the EU when the GFA was signed. Who's responsibility would it have been to keep the border open and find a solution. A50 overlooked an international peace treaty and even if the UK eventually stays in the EU, that should be legally addressed.

What if the Soviets had nuked the UK in the eighties and turned it into a smoking wasteland, who's responsibility would it be to keep the border open and find a solution?
What if Aliens had invaded and forced us all to join in worshipping their God Emperor, who's responsibility would it be to keep the border open and find a solution?

In both these cases as in yours there likely would not have been a GFA.

If your argument revolves around that the fact if things had been different then they would have been different you're really showing the weakness of the position you are holding.

 

[Honest John]

It is totally the UK's problem. If they don't want to break the GFA they have to stay in the CU which seemingly parliament wants to do anyway.

The Irish border isn't only the border between the UK and Ireland but the border between the EU and the UK. Thought the UK wanted control of all their borders, or only when it suits the UK.

And May's deal would end up being that by default. But she can't call it that. Labour know that will be the result of May's deal, it is what they are advocating anyway but they won't vote for it for political reasons.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And May's deal would end up being that by default. But she can't call it that. Labour know that will be the result of May's deal, it is what they are advocating anyway but they won't vote for it for political reasons.

The reason they don't want to be in the CU is because they conned the British public into thinking that they're going to have all these fantastic individual trade deals. Which is why Corbyn has come up with the same impossibilities because he wants to be in a CU but doing his own trade deals, the same as the Tories did in 2016.
The EU have given three solutions to this problem and the UK have turned them all down.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

How's everyone's stockpiling going? How many weeks supplies are you buying?

 

[Dumbstar]

How's everyone's stockpiling going? How many weeks supplies are you buying?

I've done my weekly Lidl shopping if that's what you're asking.

 

[Barca84]

How's everyone's stockpiling going? How many weeks supplies are you buying?

I have guns, whisky and my Silver Jubilee mug. Sorted.

 

[Buster15]

It is ironic that the issue of the Irish border is now dominating the Brexit discussion and politics.
Maybe I missed it but was this problem made clear during all the discussions prior to the referendum vote.

 

[rumac]

It is ironic that the issue of the Irish border is now dominating the Brexit discussion and politics.
Maybe I missed it but was this problem made clear during all the discussions prior to the referendum vote.

It was by the Irish.

 

[JPRouve]

It is ironic that the issue of the Irish border is now dominating the Brexit discussion and politics.
Maybe I missed it but was this problem made clear during all the discussions prior to the referendum vote.

It has been mentioned prior to the referendum, leavers didn't care and clearly remainers didn't too because they failed to focus on that point. But it was still mentioned.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That may be the case. But if we are democrats then we should make every effort to see that it is respected. If NI or Scotland, Wales were given a referendum to leave the UK and won then there would be as many saying they were stupid to leave. Would they be?

Of course not. They’d still have all the economic upsides of being a member of the EU. So it’s not comparable.

I guess they’d also lose some upsides from being a member of the UK. So they’d to consider these very carefully before making their decision. They should make sure the electorate are properly informed, then get a chance to vote on a specific plan for their future outside the UK.

Basically do what the tories didn’t do before the Brexit referendum. Learn from their mistakes.

 

[Sassy Colin]

It is ironic that the issue of the Irish border is now dominating the Brexit discussion and politics.
Maybe I missed it but was this problem made clear during all the discussions prior to the referendum vote.

Am I missing something? The DUP are pro-Bexit but don't want a hard border? They seem a bit confused, if so.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Am I missing something? The DUP are pro-Bexit but don't want a hard border? They seem a bit confused, if so.

They’re not the only ones.

 

[Maticmaker]

It is ironic that the issue of the Irish border is now dominating the Brexit discussion and politics.
Maybe I missed it but was this problem made clear during all the discussions prior to the referendum vote.

Not really, except perhaps by those directly affected on the island of Ireland, like many other things it did not come under a lot of scrutiny in the referendum. Even the GFA itself was not voted on in a people's vote throughout the UK, though it affected a 'border issue'. The fact of the matter is there is no deal to be done on Brexit that favours the UK in relation to leaving the EU, we either leave or we remain and there are grave implications either way. Once we leave we can set about seeking a trade deal, but as the EU reminds us constantly, not until we've left. A Second referendum gets us nowhere, whatever the result, because the June 2016 outcome has not been acted upon and therefore whichever side loses will believe its has a right to continue to agitate for a third, or even fourth referendum.

What Brexit has shown is that in the world we now live in, the UK can no longer rely on precedent we need a written constitution. This might be the only good thing to come out of all of this, a second Magna Carta moment in history?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It is ironic that the issue of the Irish border is now dominating the Brexit discussion and politics.
Maybe I missed it but was this problem made clear during all the discussions prior to the referendum vote.

It was brought up and discussed on here prior to the referendum.

 

[sullydnl]

Am I missing something? The DUP are pro-Bexit but don't want a hard border? They seem a bit confused, if so.

Yep. It's particularly odd as Brexit only makes a future move towards a United Ireland more likely. The Tories & DUP could do more to further the breakup of the union than Sinn Fein managed in half a century or so.

 

[That'sHernandez]

If Article 50 date is extended, do we keep all of our current standings within the EU? For example I understand that if Article 50 is revoked before the 29th March our status in the EU would be as though the referendum never happened, however would that still be the case if Article 50 extended, is the date simply arbitrary as opposed to a date when we live or die?

Secondly if breakfast is extended, does that mean I have to wait longer to be able to buy the lunch menu at McDonald's?