You're in a minority then. He is the architect of this chaos.
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You're in a minority then. He is the architect of this chaos.
Setting the referendum up as advisory and non-binding, but then treating it as though it was definitive and legally binding - that is on Cameron.
Setting it up so as to necessitate a huge, complex constitutional change based on a simple 50%+1 majority, rather than a 2/3 supermajority, as almost every other country requires for such a significant constitutional change, that is on Cameron.
Making absolutely no preparation for what happens in the event that things dont go according to plan, plunging the country into chaos as soon as the vote was announced, is on Cameron.
Calling a referendum in the first place, putting a ridiculously complicated and nuanced question that most MPs dont even understand, let alone the public, to be decided as a simple, binary question, all to appease a minority of bellends in his own party, is on Cameron.
Cameron is far more culpable for the mess we are currently in that May IMO.
Setting it up so as to necessitate a huge, complex constitutional change based on a simple 50%+1 majority, rather than a 2/3 supermajority, as almost every other country requires for such a significant constitutional change, that is on Cameron.
Making absolutely no preparation for what happens in the event that things dont go according to plan, plunging the country into chaos as soon as the vote was announced, is on Cameron.
Calling a referendum in the first place, putting a ridiculously complicated and nuanced question that most MPs dont even understand, let alone the public, to be decided as a simple, binary question, all to appease a minority of bellends in his own party, is on Cameron.
Cameron is far more culpable for the mess we are currently in that May IMO.
He could have resigned as PM but stayed on as a back bencher, but oh no, that was beneath him, he ran away completely. Odious little man.
Got to agree with Adebesi, great summing up of Cameron.
I dont think they bother anymore, they just hack into people's facebook accounts, there is more info in there for the average user than they would ever have had on anyone in the past.
“If Kinnock wins today, will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights” and such like should in theory be less of an issue the more newspaper circulation continues to fall. The internet is & will be a great leveller.
In the interests of balance, the BBC was (still is?) frequently accused of left wing bias
Through these eyes & ears though any intended bias on Radio/TV has been minimal, or at least very subtle, thankfully.
Dont get all the Cameron bashing.
UKIP/right wing Tories had his bollocks in a vice in 2015.
If he wanted to get an overall maj (first time for the Tories since ‘92 remember, so quite a prize) it was clear he would need to woo them by offering a referendum.
...and why not really? Clear that there was division on the issue in the country at large so let’s put it up in lights again for the first time since the 1970s.
He got his overall majority, lost the referendum & resigned as he (correctly) realised Brexit clashed with his own personal beliefs.
What’s the problem?
UKIP/right wing Tories had his bollocks in a vice in 2015.
If he wanted to get an overall maj (first time for the Tories since ‘92 remember, so quite a prize) it was clear he would need to woo them by offering a referendum.
...and why not really? Clear that there was division on the issue in the country at large so let’s put it up in lights again for the first time since the 1970s.
He got his overall majority, lost the referendum & resigned as he (correctly) realised Brexit clashed with his own personal beliefs.
What’s the problem?
Marxist utopia, see thats what he's getting at. Idiotic statements like that come from the media and brain wash the gullible.
Labours policies continue to poll very well there isn't a Marxist utopia and far left agenda. It's a centre left socialist platform not much further than Cleggs initial platform.
The demonizing of Corbyn is media led as were the attacks on Milliband and his father. How anyone could claim they aren't attacked is beyond me.
And would you be fine if one of the parties put forth a referendum on the death penalty to gain a majority? I mean the british constantly poll as wanting it so why not what's the problem?
The problem is that he caved in to UKIP and promised a referendum to win the election.
He then held the referendum having tried pathetically to so called renegotiate our terms with the EU.
Even worse, it is now clearly obvious that there was zero idea of what Brexit meant and zero planning for a leave vote.
Did he then have the guts to try to sort out his mess; did he fxxx.
He buggered off leaving others to sort out his mess.
Worst Tory leader ever and probably the worst PM ever.
Apart from that he displays typical upper class behaviours.
When things go wrong, run for them there hills.
Pompous twat.
How spinelesss must someone be to vote against her in the leadership election, against her deal, but for her in a confidence vote?
It is becoming increasingly hard to fathom any kind of respect for these people. I can't even give them any begrudging respect anymore, they are just jokes that are completely out of their depths, ruining their country and massively damaging our continent, cuntz.
It is becoming increasingly hard to fathom any kind of respect for these people. I can't even give them any begrudging respect anymore, they are just jokes that are completely out of their depths, ruining their country and massively damaging our continent, cuntz.
Because referendums are a terrible tool when it comes to multi disciplinary issues. Brexit isn't and will never be a question that should be put to the public because every topics requires a deep legal, political, social and economic understanding. You can't reduce 50 years of collaboration, legislation and technical debate to a simple binary question.
Well said Cameron is a chancer and a coward, he started all this shit just to strengthen his position in his own party. How he doesn't get more shit for it don't know.
Quite agree. Supersilious git.
You will always see him next to Mrs May, loading the bullets so she can fire them.
Made an utter shambles of our Defence and doing the same with the economy.
If it isn't the media's fault at all... where are you getting all of this misinformation you have just spouted?
Marxist Utopia? Far left? Explain to me what in the Labour manifesto justifies that sort of rhetoric? I am intrigued.
Someone on This Morning stockpiling food and installing solar panels in preparation for Brexit
The sun shines in the UK?
In fairness 'Marxist-utopia' was ill-judged. It's just a buzzword for expressing scepticism of socialism.
A good summary. I’d also add pandering to eurosceptics since he first became leader of the Conservatives and rarely saying anything positive about the EU while PM - meaning his only option in the referendum campaign was to emphasise the economic cost, which after years of austerity was not going to get much traction in struggling Leave areas.
History will be very harsh on Cameron, even if we do extricate ourselves from this mess.
I don't think the Daily Heil is the best reference to prove a point TBH.
There may be many things to criticise him for but starting a dialogue with the IRA via Sinn Fein isn't one of them. Dialogue was what produced the GFA and in the end you have to talk to people you might prefer not to, to end violence.
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Definitely.
I think history will judge May as a PM that was dealt a horrible hand, and played it badly. Whereas Cameron was someone who was dealt a perfectly good hand and played it catastrophically.
And as for McDonnell, well it beggars belief but it’s true, and to think our taxes pay for his wages.
This current labour lot are not fit for office. The party should have a bloody big clear out and make themselves respectable again.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ontinues-display-plaque-ira-terrorists-study/
Oh yeah, its worse than remaining, but might allow politicians to say "we left" and everyone can try to move on.
The problem is this is a left leaning Forum, so any right thinking posters get short shrift.
The poster that was constantly calling out Corbyn ending up getting banned, although, tbf, he didn't get banned for calling out Corbyn but for acting like a tit when he was prevented from calling out Corbyn.
Reading the comments on the BBC site regarding May's vote of no confidence.
"Try as I might, I still can’t manage to recall any mention of a “deal” on the 2016 ballot paper. No, no, I’m sure I did not imagine it. I’ve tried searching on the internet but it must have been removed without trace. "
So many people like that. Like, of course we're going to make a fecking deal... Wtf else are we gonna do? "Peace, bitches!" & just walk off?
"Try as I might, I still can’t manage to recall any mention of a “deal” on the 2016 ballot paper. No, no, I’m sure I did not imagine it. I’ve tried searching on the internet but it must have been removed without trace. "
So many people like that. Like, of course we're going to make a fecking deal... Wtf else are we gonna do? "Peace, bitches!" & just walk off?
Last night parliament rejected May's deal either because it was too soft or it was too hard. It is beyond me how parliament is going to agree on anything.
May had become a real life parody of George Bluth Sr
Using the most extreme measures to teach people a lesson.
Using the most extreme measures to teach people a lesson.
50 + 1 % isn’t enough to change anything? I’m sure remainers would have taken that result in a referendum with no quibbles whatsoever.
May as well keep the status quo forever then in your world. Or maybe you’d like a dictatorship-lite?
If you want a 2/3 majority for anything of any note, you’ll in all likelihood will be waiting a long time for any significant changes in any field that you propose. And potentially, civil unrest etc depending on the issue.
There is NO WAY the right wing would have voted for Cameron in 2015 on the terms you are proposing & simple fact is he wanted to win a Tory majority for the first time in 23 years and that was very much in the balance.
I think it’s unfair to keep blaming Cameron. Did Harold Wilson have any well crafted contingency plans for a no vote in 1975? Probably not. Lucky for him, he got the right result.
As regards it being reduced to a binary issue, let’s take the Brexiteers at their word and leave with no deal then. It’s what they voted for after all in its simplest form isn’t it? No EU.
Simon Hattenston's peice on Today In Focus was quite grim listening for anyone who holds out
Of course it's relevent. It was a needless, afterthought of a promise to appease voters in an election where he promised stability yet failed to see out his tenure and left the UK in, what will probably be, a decade or so of chaos.
Of course it's relevent. It was a needless, afterthought of a promise to appease voters in an election where he promised stability yet failed to see out his tenure and left the UK in, what will probably be, a decade or so of chaos.
Perhaps so you should be less dismissive of others opinions which is just ignorant and rude and instead argue your points.
Being challenged is not giving short shrift it's just disagreement, feel free to argue back or not that's your choice but the constant moaning from those more right leaning that they're being treated unfairly is tiresome.
What a waste of time PMQs is.
If 50.1% voted for it, that means a majority of the people want to see the rules of their country altered accordingly. Undemocratic to say otherwise whether you agree with it or not.
This is the intelligence of the average Englander.
Prior to the No Confidence Vote and further debate I'm going for
65% No Deal , 30% Revoke A50, 5% Revive or alter the deal, 0% Corbyn's unicorns.
65% No Deal , 30% Revoke A50, 5% Revive or alter the deal, 0% Corbyn's unicorns.
Where am I dismissive of others opinions? Perhaps you should read people's posts before insulting them?
The fact remains that any right leaning poster is fighting a losing battle on this Forum as it is predominantly left leaning. That has always been the case and no one on here, left or right, would deny it.
btw, Lefties talk bollocks most of the time, as regards politics
Our expectation of the PM role is so low in this country. They turn up every week, don't answer a single question, pretty much lie and that's fine apparently. Don't carry a majority in parliament or in your own party? Who cares!
I'd be intrigued to know if it's as bad in other EU countries but from what i manage to catch of their news it isn't.
Unicorns? I missed that
.Unicorns? I missed that
Where he expects to negotiate a deal with the EU having exactly the same benefits as now without being in the EU or having any responsibilities regarding Freedom of Movement, the ECJ and still expecting to negotiate their own trade deals .
Same as the Tories back in 2016.
To be fair, that's not necessarily the case.
For example, when the referendum - a legally binding one! - was held about whether Hungary should join the EU, the requirement was that 25% of all constituents vote the same way. That is to say, in the case of a 50% turnout, 50% + 1 "yes" vote would have been enough for a valid and legally binding result.
The lesson of Brexit, the reason why we have a constitutional crises, is there was no supermajority to see through the delivery of such a massive impactful decision. In the absence of that, given the result, there then was no attempt to gain 'loser's consent'. Read this, it explains it well. Just because Leave won, didn't mean they got to impose their will carte blanche. The closeness of the result suggested concessions would be needed to bring enough of the 48% into the tent. Which never happened.
(It's worth noting Farage etc are on record as saying if Leave lost narrowly, they'd be back arguing for anothe rreferendum
If anything, this political crises proves why supermajorities are even a thing.
That seems that it should be a profoundly desirable thing for a Conservative? In the proper sense of Conservative of someone who tries to preserve things, rather than these pretend Conservatives who want continual revolutions.
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