Owen Paterson summed up the Tory problem with the backstop when he says the DUP don't accept the backstop and without the DUP there is no Tory government.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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A non-hard border would be entirely possible - it just requires the two nations on either side of it to neglect to man it. Given that neither Ireland nor the UK want a hard border, this could simply have been delivered up as a fait accompli. The issue then becomes primarily a problem between Ireland and the EU, and the UK would be under no obligation to help them solve it.
The only reason it's an issue for the UK now is that it stands in the way of doing a deal we appear desperate to make. Had we started from the position of not expecting to do a deal, the Irish border would not have given the EU any leverage in the negotiations (in fact, quite the opposite as the EU would have been looking for us to help them solve the problem, so we would have been in the position to attach conditions to any such co-operation).
Hmmm, sound logic for a new referendum in my opinion. 1.2 million+ dead Brits got to vote in the referendum and well over a million 18 year olds didn't get the chance.
You had a vote in the Brexit Referendum - Scotland took part and 44% wanted to Leave so democratically you have had your say.
As for the rest this is what you do when you lose an argument, say something sarcastic and then disappear for the hills.
All that does it makes you sound really arrogant.
Popcorn time.
To brexiteers. I can live with that.
You can't belong to a group that is constantly represented by idiots like Ben Bradley saying blatantly daft things and expect me not to have an opinion on it.
Personally I suspect the DUP are quite enjoying their time in the limelight. They don't like the deal on the table, and they'll reject it, but that doesn't mean that they'll subsequently vote against the government in a confidence motion.
The DUP (Dramaqueen Unionist Party) should remember that whereas NI suffered as a whole during the troubles GB sacrificed many of its young men and civilians in the city bombings just to keep the word 'Northern' in their country's name. The reason the backstop is there is pure pragmatism. Nothing more. Any the notion the a UK government would just cut them adrift at a pen stroke having sacrificed so much to keep them in the UK is utter bollocks.
Perhaps TM should bung them another billion. Because that's what they really want. Then their politicians can spend even longer getting paid for doing jack shit in Stormont.
If the two countries have entirely different regulations it is not possible. The Uk want control of their borders which is supposedly one of the reason for Brexit, they can't have it both ways. Under a hard brexit the UK will not be covered by EU regulations and the EU will have not say as to what the UK get up to. This is a consequence of hard brexit , the UK again trying to renegue on their responibilities. It is not the EU's or Ireland's fault it is purely the UK's fault for leaving the EU.
everyone (incuding the EU) knows a no deal brexit is the worst possible outcome for everyone.
Are you serious? How does any of what you've written equate with "taking control of our borders"?
It's fine to have an opinion, I just think the blanket statement about the intelligence of Brexiteers is unfair.
There are some who voted simply in the spirit of xenophobia, the DM reading, Tommy supporting, OMFG GET THE FOREIGNERS OUT types. Nobody doubts their level of intellect.
...but there are those who have the right to fundamentally question whether or not their country remains part of a bureaucratic titan with increasing powers, often with ambitions beyond the customs union we voted into. There was no public say on Maastricht after all.
I'm staggered also by the lack of socialist/left wing voices who traditionally oppose the EU, Corbyn is one of them (Galloway another, sadly) and I'm often left scratching my head as to why a number of intelligent, progressive and liberal people are so enchanted by a mammoth right wing organisation.
Honestly, it looks like "we can just not have a hard border" is the equivalent of "armies of immigrants are pouring over the border" in the Trump/ICE threads. Keeps recurring, easily proven wrong and only unicorn solutions proposed to solve it.
Sorry, but it is quite obviously possible. In fact it requires effort and infrastructure to put a hard border in place, whereas it requires nothing at all not to.
Not having a hard border in a 'hard' Brexit scenario would certainly throw up a lot of issues, I suspect more around the movement of goods than people, but putting one in place also creates problems. The UK and Irish governments could decide that they'd rather be managing the problems arising from not having a hard border than managing the ones from putting such a border in place.
May is clutching at more straws than a masturbating scarecrow here
'Damaging for the country' doesn't equate to 'Damaging for me'. People always say shite like that, and claim on polls that they'd do it even if it hurt them personally, but as soon as its their family getting hurt they always about face quick as you like.
It's not ideal, and it probably wouldn't have happened, but it certainly isn't the doomsday scenario is is often made out to be. From my perspective, the worst possible outcome is one that sees us remaining in the EU - all other outcomes are better.
Public numbers seem overwhelmingly in her favour. Is this anything to go by?
May returning to the Cameron/Crosby-playbook and trying to sow fear re a Labour government.
The movement of people is the least of the problems, you cannot have an open border between countries with different regulations. Why won't the UK take responsibility for their actions?
You would have no problem with not having a border with India for example?
There are borders between Norway and Sweden, between Switzerland and France/Germany/Italy. Even Liechtenstein has a border.
I do believe the Irish border is a very specific issue, and I don't think many people have Ireland in mind when they talk about "taking control of our borders".
You are right though if you suggest that the absence of a border in Ireland would present a back door for migration from the EU to the UK. Personally I don't see that as a big problem as I'm not sure there would be a huge incentive for EU nationals to move to the UK post-Brexit. The bigger problem would arise from the movement of goods, but this looks to me to be much more of an issue for the EU than for the UK.
In what aspect? If you're referring to Tory MP's coming out to support her, it's a blind ballot - so they can say one thing and do another.
I only see the first group masquerading as the second, to be honest. When they're pressed about anything about the EU they escape into their "I don't know the details" safe zone. That second group may exist, but it's a tiny minority that are both informed about the EU and against it.
Q.E.D
Escape the right wing organisation into the safe hands of the tories?
Around 158 Tories have said publically they will back her and that's enough to win.
But it's a secret ballot so if less than that number end up voting in her favour it goes to prove what a dishonest, snakey party of back stabbing twats they are.
Well that doesn’t sound like the Tory party.
There are reasons why there isn't a hard border between the UK and Ireland that go way beyond trade and customs regulations, as I'm sure you know. The same issues do not apply in the examples you provide (or, as far as I know, anywhere else in the world).
It's not an issue of the UK taking responsibility - in a post-Brexit world, why should the UK, which generally favours free trade anyway, put in place infrastructure solely to uphold EU customs regulations?
Yes. Most of the the public, whether leave or remain want this done. And they want it done in the least painful manner with the closest relationship with the EU.
Plus the fact that the only person in Parliament that appears to be working their proverbial arse off in the interest of the country appears to be Theresa May.
All the rest are lazy, gutless, self-indulgent tossers who have done sod all but stand around pointing fingers and uttering mealy-mouthed complaints.
The public know that and will remember that when election time comes.
It's not EU regulations , it's WTO regulations that the hard brexiters seem to have fallen in love with. Thus if the UK have an open border with the EU/Ireland they have to have an open border with every other WTO nation, MFN rules, which rather defeats the object of 'taking control of our borders' when the UK will have no control of any border with any country.
But even this does not take away the problem of certification , standards and the mountains of paperwork a hard brexit will entail. Any movement of goods both ways will be a logistical nightmare.
What an extraordinary view you have. Honestly the mind boggles.
Bored of the whole thing to be honest. We look like a bunch of clowns for electing these lot.
Much as I dislike the Tories, this thought did cross my mind the other day.
She's just a scapegoat for the whole Conservative party incompetence.
John Redwood has opened an account.
They will continue to Get elected too. We don't deserve nice things.
I get that she's in a difficult situation but thats one of the worst PMQ performances from her. Again treating parliament as party politics
I can only speak for myself, but I accepted that there would be an economic impact from Brexit in the short to medium term, but voted for it anyway. I'm also sure that 'decimating our economy' is a massive overstatement of the impact of a hard Brexit.
I dislike the EU as an organisation, and fervently wish we were not a part of it. I retain some hope, but not much to be honest, that my wish will soon come to pass.