Blame Liberal Democrats. They propped Tories to power and once they have power they hang on for dear life throwing everything they can at the fire!
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Blame Liberal Democrats. They propped Tories to power and once they have power they hang on for dear life throwing everything they can at the fire!
Watching Question Time last night - I don't really get the arguments against another referendum (other then, it's done so it's done I guess)...
I mean, peoples opinions are allowed to change on matters (that's why we vote for new MP's and Governments after-all) ... I mean, if the vote had been to remain in Europe, would that have been the last ever vote on Europe? probably not... (there'd have been one in 10/20 years or so...) So whilst it has come around a bit quicker then that of course, with the amount of information out there now and the level of understanding on the issue among the general public increased... another vote makes sense.
And if it the vote stays the same, boom you have your answer.... if it changes, then guess what, the majority of the country don't want to leave anymore.
I mean, peoples opinions are allowed to change on matters (that's why we vote for new MP's and Governments after-all) ... I mean, if the vote had been to remain in Europe, would that have been the last ever vote on Europe? probably not... (there'd have been one in 10/20 years or so...) So whilst it has come around a bit quicker then that of course, with the amount of information out there now and the level of understanding on the issue among the general public increased... another vote makes sense.
And if it the vote stays the same, boom you have your answer.... if it changes, then guess what, the majority of the country don't want to leave anymore.
She needs to call their bluff. This will hopefully be enough to stop them pushing for a no-deal brexit which is complete insanity on their part.
She's an idiot for ever getting involved with those lunatics in the first place. Everyone called it as soon as she did that they'd completely feck her over when it came to negotiating for a deal.
Presumably she is gambling that she will get enough votes from other parties that she doesnt need the DUP votes?
Forgetting May, the way Arlene has played this has been a disaster .
Jo Johnson (the brother of boris)
Has quit - and is calling for a 2nd referendum
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403
Has quit - and is calling for a 2nd referendum
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403
I think the maths will come down to who is more unpopular in their own party - May or Corbyn and can she get enough to vote against the whip on the labour benches to offset her own likley defectors
gut feel it will be pretty close
There's a couple of arguments (And there not great one but)
1)In terms of both parties it could possibly be very damaging to their core support.
2)If there's another referendum then it would mostly likely be a 3 option - Remain, Whatever May gets and A hard Brexit. There's a decent chance that a hard brexit could win and well.....we are all fecked.
3)Why would this new referendum be anymore meaningful than the old one ?
4)It would be the biggest boost to the far right in decades.
Didn't know British had a brother in government.
Interesting that both his dad and brother are staunch remainers.
Interesting that both his dad and brother are staunch remainers.
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that would be total suicide. essentially you're giving the 52% the same vote they had last time and making it more difficult for the 48%
The biggest reason is why would it be anymore meaningful and why wouldn't we end up having another in a years time? Or 5 years time?
I think everyone understands that we can't have continuous votes on the relationship so it's how we settle it for a generation.
A second referendum would only be possible if we get a clear position on terms if we leave and terms if we stay, otherwise it's as bullshit as the first vote.
Absolutely, and the 'people's vote' campaigners should be demanding that May formally requests the EU to declare it's position on a withdrawal of article 50, in the Remain campaign's own interest, because if people don't know for sure before a second referendum then Leave will have a massive open goal to claim whatever they want. I can see Farage now, 'we'll lose the rebate, we'll have to join the Euro, we'll have to join Schengen, we'll lose our veto' - Remain would get slaughtered in any second referendum like that.
It would help if Remainers spent less time declaring how stupid everyone else is and a bit more time working out exactly how they're going to go about achieving their objectives.
To be honest if the EU did push us down joining the Euro i think I'd vote leave
I don't think they would though, it'll be a loss of the rebate as a warning to anyone else thinking of leaving and that would be fair.
I think that's most likely too, but most likely ain't going to win any vote, is it?To be honest if the EU did push us down joining the Euro i think I'd vote leave
I don't think they would though, it'll be a loss of the rebate as a warning to anyone else thinking of leaving and that would be fair.
Actually is not. Would be an advantage to remain as you divide leave in 2. Lets say it remains the same as 2 years ago
- Remain 48%
- Mays plan (lets say) 15%
- Hard Brexit (lets say) 37%
Remain wins even if Leave would be majority
You mean you expect Farage to tell the truth if there is a next time. Everything that came out his mouth the first time was bilge but the Leavers all swallowed it. Why would it be different second time round?
Did you see him on that C4 programme, his only argument was refugees.
You're overexcited again Paul. Where did I say Farage has or will tell the truth? My point is that if Remainers hold a referendum without knowing what it is they're asking people to vote for then they will be playing straight into Farage's hands.
What I would like to see is Labour use one of it's opposition days to raise a motion that instructs May to ask the EU on what terms Britain might remain in the EU if the British electorate indicated that to be their wish. I don't know how many Tory Remainer rebels would vote for such a motion of course, but it would be easier for them to vote for something that only asks for more information than it would be to vote for an outright rejection of the Brexit referendum. The DUP might see it as the start of a way out of their hole too.
The main obstacle to even holding a second referendum is still Corbyn however, and unless Labour Remainers wake up to that and turn their criticism on to him personally then there won't be one anyway.
I don't disagree with what you said but everything was laid out before the voters in 2016, maybe not very well, but facts were rejected. Will facts be relevant if there is another time? What I meant was lies will be prevalent throughout a campaign but yes a clear plan would need to be conceived.
I wouldn't be surprised if May knew already the answer to the question about terms.
Imo if the UK now said they wanted to stay the EU would accept them back as they were with a proviso of not trying to leave again next year ie within a set period of time.
If, however, they want to keep extending A50 I doubt this would work. This could go on indefinitely until the UK decide what they actually want and moreover, can realistically have. The final decision has to be by the end of March 2019.
Therefore if the UK were to decide to stay there isn't time for a second referendum.
If the UK subsequently decided to rejoin/stay after March 2019 then I believe the terms would be different.
What I don't see is how whatever is agreed, one way or another getting through parliament whether because of Corbyn or the hardliners .
Well no it wasn't, and still isn't. We didn't know and still don't know whether we will have a customs union, a trade agreement with the EU, or whether we will be able to make trade agreements elsewhere, or what we do about the Irish border, or what freedom of movement there will be, or what our new immigration policy will be. That's just a start, I'm sure people could add loads more. If there is to be a second referendum asking for support of a May deal at least a lot of that would become known, what we don't want is for Remain to be the unknown, we need to know the details of that too. And sorry, I'm not being personal but IMO just doesn't count.
No I disagree. If the UK leaves the EU they leave the CU and SM and become a third country. If they leave the CU they can make their own deals. If they leave the CU and SM the Irish border has to be hard. It was true in 2016 and is still true now. What the UK is trying to do is still have the benefits and no responsibility. The UK's immigration policy towards the EU will depend on whether they leave or not. 4 freedoms.
A trade deal will be as a third country like Canada or Japan if they leave, and you won't know what it is for years.
The fact that people have only just starting to realise what the consequences is the real problem. It's like Raab just realising the most important trade route is Dover/Calais, this was pointed out three years ago and ignored and he's supposed to be the one in charge. The Irish problem was pointed out three years ago and ignored. Everything was but no-one was listening.
Yes it was, and yes it is. And it was all rejected as scaremongering. People cannot pretend to be ignorant of it now because they weren't listening at the time when all the experts who knew more about this than anyone else due to it being their entire fecking career, told us what was going to happen, which is actually common fecking sense and they were denounced with Gove saying we're tired of people who know the answers to the questions we don't know about, giving us the answers that we need.
I love this idea. It's basically the remain by default approach!
I agree much of that is probable, there was a time when I was one of the few on here believing a hard brexit to be the most likely outcome, with yourself of course, but I've only ever said most likely, not certain.
As it stands now I still don't know for sure whether May will agree a deal, much less what that deal will be, or whether parliament will accept it anyway, and neither do you.
So I'll go back to my main point of the day, if Remainers want a second referendum they need to plan what it will be and how they are going to win it, and I don't hear any plan at all, only 'you were all stupid in the first one' which, whether true or not, isn't going to win anything.
But what bewilders me is what type of deal are people expecting May to have, from both Leavers and Remainers pov.
Chequers is dead, said that 4 months ago but somehow it sort of lingers. She's not coming back with a trade deal.
It seems that the major points like the citizens rights and the settlement have been agreed. All that is left is the Irish border, it's not going to be resolved if the UK leave so the backstop comes into place until magic solutions appear which means the Uk will be in transition indefinitely. I doubt this is going to get through parliament and it's leaving everything in limbo, businesses, people's lives etc. This is really not solving anything. The Uk will be tied to the EU , still paying and having no vote until the Irish problem is solved. Then what - they have the hard Brexit? Or do they have it in March?
There's not going to be a trade deal before the UK leave just a general idea of what it will look like.
The plan will no doubt be the basically same as now but presented a bit better, what else is Remain going to say? - I just don't see a second referendum happening or even the point of having one. The government itself has to decide before March 29.
On the other hand another Johnson has resigned, and if they don't like it then maybe it will be a good deal after all? Nah, only joking, I don't think whatever happens will be good exactly, we just have to hope for the least bad.
Apologies, been working in Berlin.
So who gets to decide what is xenophobic? You? Isnt it stupid to complain about people being xenophobic and yet attach yourself to the EU who puts up borders and stops people coming in?
Where is the limit for you? In an ideal world, where are your borders? Or don’t you have any?
I have no idea what you’re talking about anymore I’m afraid. You’ve lost the plot. Last week barca84 asked you to clarify your “Brits don’t want foreigners in the UK” position, and you spent 48 hours shifting the goalposts and trying to argue with him. Your best argument was how you walked into a pub in the UK, and it went quiet.
Maybe you should make a thread or post about the positives of the future of the EU. What great things do you see for the future of the EU?
If we have another referendum it could help.
Yeah OK, if you say so, you sure you went to Berlin and not the Sahara. Sand gets everywhere.
All those questions are fair questions. And honestly I do not have a simple question. Is a struggle with my morals, my selfishness, what I have been told is "good" or "bad"
Answering the last part, for me is clear that not restricting borders with governments and companies taking advantage of the less fortunate, would be madness. Without a decent minimum salary, without perusing who is employing illegal immigrants (for starters), capitalistic western societies would go down the drain pretty quickly without restrictions.
About your first part, About if is stupid complaining being xenophobic? I do think is not when the xenophobic reasons are stupid. IMO, Economically speaking, being in the EU, is more positive than negative. Immigration brought prosperity both ways (receiving and being able to enjoy mobility) in rich countries (maybe not so to the poor ones that had been drained of their best and/or younger workforce)
UK for starters have very good professionals in healthcare that didn't have to pay their education, basically other countries paid for free for their education. And they probably pay them less at the beginning and for sure less that if UK would have job market constrains, struggling to get just UK doctors and nurses. And that is just an example.
Also, you have a young workforce that you can have a fair debate about jobs that they take or lower salaries (that would be solved having a decent minimum salary and punish companies that employ illegal immigrants), but they consum (generating jobs), pay taxes (generating jobs) and they barely use any public services (there are exceptions of course) while you send old farts to enjoy spanish services in la costa del sol, consuming, yes but not paying taxes and using A LOT of the services. Basically widening the pyramid at the base and shrinking it on the top.
Is clear what is better. Having 100.000 spanish young waiters working in UK or 200.000 old farts consuming NHS spanish services (obviously cliches and made up numbers, but there are more brits in spain than spaniards in UK)
And that, again, is just an example.
Xenophobs might not like foreigners for whatever reasons, maybe right, maybe racism, maybe they fecked your wife, maybe they been lied. But economically speaking, IMO (again IMO) is stupid to get out
IN conclusion. Putting borders between countries of unequal economic level, I might understand some reasons, there are as well solutions. But between the EU? I think is stupid xenophobia, so no, I don't find stupid complaining.
Then we can discuss another debate that might be ideologic. That people want to quit for other reasons. There, I can't debate as is a much difficult debate and the differences are of another spectrum and I might even agree as I am not a big fan of the EU and several of their policies
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There will be a deal, of that i am sure.
To be honest if the EU did push us down joining the Euro i think I'd vote leave
I don't think they would though, it'll be a loss of the rebate as a warning to anyone else thinking of leaving and that would be fair.
How much would that cost?
Sure, but a shit one as will be out the EU, but follow every rule and have no say about them. The funny thing is the Brextreemists will have made the UKs relationship with the EU look like the one they said we had before the referendum.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...-with-dup-over-brexit-backstop-plan-1.3692673
Cash for Ash. Ruebles for Scruples.
Cash for Ash. Ruebles for Scruples.
Until Noel Edmonds says otherwise I’m picturing Teresa May on Deal or No Deal
Well Boris will need a bigger bus! Our rebate is usually 4-5billion.
The EU are already trying to use Brexit to end rebates and discounts to other countries which hasn't gone down well. No way do we get the same favourable terms under remain.
Jo Johnson seems like a fairly sensible chap.
Jo Johnson: 'Democratic travesty' not to have another Brexit vote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46162114
Jo Johnson: 'Democratic travesty' not to have another Brexit vote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46162114