Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Silva]

That's what some have described over the last couple of pages. Don't know anyone that votes like that personally.

Nah it's horseshit mate. It's a bad argument that has zero backing. There are frequently large numbers of voters who vote to for one candidate because they hate the other - i.e Trump voters motivated by their hatred of Clinton and vice versa - this is a position taken up by people in a lot of elections. But that's a legitimate reason too. If you think one party or politician will make your life worse or be a bad politician, you vote against them. But the only people you'll find saying "we voted x to make the libs or nazi's cry" etc. are internet trolls who chat shit.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Heh.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum-uk-residents-vote-today.404633/page-8#post-18743860

And then only started to say 'I voted Remain or I am undecided' as a way in to attacks on every facet of the Remain argument.

Also that page is an amusing example of how Nick was wrong about everything. I especially liked his prediction that a post-leave vote Britain would shift towards the left.

I have my own opinion of how he really voted originally but it doesn't matter, the referendum was over 2 years ago and I highly doubt there'll be another one in the next ten years. Nick was just wet behind the ears imo.

Looking forward to @Chorley1974 response

Possibly the strong economic argument put forward by the Leave camp since the referendum?

 

[Wibble]

That would be a rationale for being pro-Brexit from day one. And I can sort of understand that. Tear the whole thing down and start again. All the more tempting when you haven’t got a lot to lose.

The only flaw is that it is utter bullshit.

 

[Wibble]

I'm 7 years off retirement. For the first time in my life I am solvent. The Company I work for is doing well.

For selfish reasons and for the sake of the 40 employees I represent... I bloody well don't want to take one step back.

How does the UK becoming a banana republic help you or your employees?

 

[Smores]

That would be a rationale for being pro-Brexit from day one. And I can sort of understand that. Tear the whole thing down and start again. All the more tempting when you haven’t got a lot to lose.

It’s the idea that someone might think staying in the EU is the best for their country, only to flip to Leave because they don’t like the way people talk about Leave voters that seems crazy.

That's a very extreme example. In reality it's more people who share some of the leave arguments but sat on the fence in which way they'll vote, they then double down when one side appears to treat them with disdain and the other provides confirmation bias. I doubt anyone is doing a 180.

 

[Wibble]

People don't like to be belittled or made to feel stupid, even if they're demonstrably wrong. Even if it seems illogical, it's just how some people think.

There are many people who think emotionally rather than logically which is what has fuelled much of the Leave arguments.

It really makes you wonder about this democracy thing.

 

[afrocentricity]

Flip flopping snowflakes....

 

[Honest John]

How does the UK becoming a banana republic help you or your employees?

In what regard are we going to become a banana republic?

 

[711]

I also find the argument that you've changed your mind because of how the EU is treating us in negotiations, silly. You were told before hand that this is exactly how negotiations would go. So why get upset?

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

 

[horsechoker]

It really makes you wonder about this democracy thing.

It does make a case for only informed people being allowed to vote. But on the other hand we have a party full of graduates from some of the best schools and universities in the country leading us down a destructive path. So will the informed always make utilitarian decisions?

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

I'm not sure about what he was supposed to say here, informed? Because a part of the electorate were informed and they rejected it on the argument that experts knew nothing and that it was project fear. Surely you realize that while playing devil's advocate you are actually working for the devil?

 

[afrocentricity]

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

Sad state of affairs when the tone of an arguement or statement is more important than the content.

 

[JPRouve]

Sad state of affairs when the tone of an arguement or statement is more important than the content.

It's not. Think about it, it doesn't bother them when they are told by the other side, where is the difference?

 

[afrocentricity]

It's not. Think about it, it doesn't bother them when they are told by the other side, where is the difference?

I know it's not, but apparently to some it is....

 

[Wibble]

It does make a case for only informed people being allowed to vote. But on the other hand we have a party full of graduates from some of the best schools and universities in the country leading us down a destructive path. So will the informed always make utilitarian decisions?

Depressing isn't it?

 

[Wibble]

In what regard are we going to become a banana republic?

Leaving the EU. Gradually becoming less and less politically and economically important. That sort of thing.

 

[711]

Depressing isn't it?

Certainly is. If I'm reading the mood of the country as a whole right, as opposed to the chattering places like this, it's pretty much descended into 'fate will take it's course'. The weekly audience calls on Question Time to 'just get on with it' seem to sum it up. There, that's cheered you up hasn't it?

 

[Honest John]

Leaving the EU. Gradually becoming less and less politically and economically important. That sort of thing.

I don't want to leave the EU. That's my point. Those who argue for it are saying we need to take 1 step back in order to move forward. Well that's ok if you've not much to lose.

 

[711]

I'm not sure about what he was supposed to say here, informed? Because a part of the electorate were informed and they rejected it on the argument that experts knew nothing and that it was project fear. Surely you realize that while playing devil's advocate you are actually working for the devil?

I presume we can agree that the Remain campaign hasn't been and isn't as successful as it should be, given the arguments. I've then attempted to explain one reason why, no doubt in a poor fashion, and maybe I'm just wrong anyway, but that's all I've tried to do.

 

[Wibble]

I don't want to leave the EU. That's my point. Those who argue for it are saying we need to take 1 step back in order to move forward. Well that's ok if you've not much to lose.

Agreed

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I presume we can agree that the Remain campaign hasn't been and isn't as successful as it should be, given the arguments. I've then attempted to explain one reason why, no doubt in a poor fashion, and maybe I'm just wrong anyway, but that's all I've tried to do.

Who was and who is the Remain Campaign - Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Blair and Major and the odd labour MP who were or are rather too quiet and soft.

Whereas the Leave campaign were full of loud mouthed liars like Johnson, Farage, Gove plus JRM, Redwood etc.

Maybe it wasn't that that the Leavers were being called idiots that was the problem, it was that Remain was too quiet and polite. And that is why the Uk is drifting and sleepwalking into disaster.
Normally you'd expect the leader of the opposition to rally the troops but there is no leader of the opposition.

 

[Wibble]

Certainly is. If I'm reading the mood of the country as a whole right, as opposed to the chattering places like this, it's pretty much descended into 'fate will take it's course'. The weekly audience calls on Question Time to 'just get on with it' seem to sum it up. There, that's cheered you up hasn't it?

Nope

 

[711]

Who was and who is the Remain Campaign - Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Blair and Major and the odd labour MP who were or are rather too quiet and soft.

Whereas the Leave campaign were full of loud mouthed liars like Johnson, Farage, Gove plus JRM, Redwood etc.

Maybe it wasn't that that the Leavers were being called idiots that was the problem, it was that Remain was too quiet and polite. And that is why the Uk is drifting and sleepwalking into disaster.
Normally you'd expect the leader of the opposition to rally the troops but there is no leader of the opposition.

The leader of the opposition being a lifelong Brexiter might not be helping in that respect.

I get the gist of your 'big names' though, Redwood excepted. It seemed a positive for Remain at the time, but maybe not.

 

[Adisa]

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

I don't really get this. The Leave campaign told us negotiations would be the easiest thing in the world and that Germany want to seek us their cars. The people on the other side said that's bollocks and that negotiations would be tough with us being told to do one on most issues. What's the problem with that kind of tone?
The crux of it is that people don't like being told what they don't want to hear, regardless of how it is told.

 

[Cheesy]

Who was and who is the Remain Campaign - Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Blair and Major and the odd labour MP who were or are rather too quiet and soft.

Whereas the Leave campaign were full of loud mouthed liars like Johnson, Farage, Gove plus JRM, Redwood etc.

Maybe it wasn't that that the Leavers were being called idiots that was the problem, it was that Remain was too quiet and polite. And that is why the Uk is drifting and sleepwalking into disaster.
Normally you'd expect the leader of the opposition to rally the troops but there is no leader of the opposition.

The problem is that the Remain politicians you mentioned have fostered this attitude for decades. Cameron was pro-EU, but had essentially spent the majority of his tenure as PM giving in to anti-EU sentiment and blaming the EU for most of our domestic problems because if he didn't he'd have to accept his own culpability due to austerity. Even Labour politicians like Blair, while pro-EU, would talk tough on immigration in public to appease right-wingers even if they intended to do nothing about it. The result was that anti-immigration sentiment has been strong, and people naturally got annoyed when politicians promised about reducing net figures but literally did nothing. People then sought out the option that would force change and went for it.

 

[maniak]

Is he very unsatisfied with his life?

He's very well off in life tbh. However he watches hours of CMTV (the portuguese equivalent of the Daily Mail) every day.

 

[Abizzz]

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

Oh common, you're acting as if the leave campaign's tone about the EU hasn't been nasty since right from the beginning. You really think that telling people that they have been told what will come is worse than brexiteers telling remainers that they are campaigning for their country to be oppressed and taken advantage of... which they are effectively doing (and lying in the act).

 

[JPRouve]

I presume we can agree that the Remain campaign hasn't been and isn't as successful as it should be, given the arguments. I've then attempted to explain one reason why, no doubt in a poor fashion, and maybe I'm just wrong anyway, but that's all I've tried to do.

I'm totally aware of the fact that you are only trying to explain certain behaviours but in my opinion there is a fatal flaw here.

The problem here is that you highlighted the words "you were told" and used it as a difference maker when in reality there is no difference between how the leave and remain campaign engaged the part of the electorate that was leaning toward leave in the first place, Leave told them why they should vote leave and remain told them why they shouldn't and in some cases why leave was lying. Only one side seems to be criticized for telling things, the other wasn't even asked to provide proofs.

What you are saying makes sense today though, in the sense that after the vote people aren't going to openly change their opinion when they are treated with disdain but during the campaign it would have made no difference because leavers were seemingly against every single type of approach that didn't had for conclusion to leave. They rejected experts, self information and even common sense, when someone convince himself that an economy of the size of the UK will negotiate with the EU, US or China as equals, you have to realize that something is severely wrong.

 

[Adisa]

I think k it's a bit like argument aboutTrump supporters being be more responsive if you are nice to them.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Personally I think the media should be taking a lot of flack for our current situation. They give the most airtime to the loudest idiots and refuse to do any kind of research before interviews or panel shows. You probably get better information from some twitter thread than you do from the BBC or national newspapers. It’s really quite embarrassing and ends up with every leave voter lumped in with Mogg and Redwood.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The leader of the opposition being a lifelong Brexiter might not be helping in that respect.

I get the gist of your 'big names' though, Redwood excepted. It seemed a positive for Remain at the time, but maybe not.

The leader of the opposition is pursuing his personal goal, not his party's, there is something seriously wrong here, whereas May is supposedly pursuing the party's goal and not her personal goal.
What a kerfuffle.

The problem is that the Remain politicians you mentioned have fostered this attitude for decades. Cameron was pro-EU, but had essentially spent the majority of his tenure as PM giving in to anti-EU sentiment and blaming the EU for most of our domestic problems because if he didn't he'd have to accept his own culpability due to austerity. Even Labour politicians like Blair, while pro-EU, would talk tough on immigration in public to appease right-wingers even if they intended to do nothing about it. The result was that anti-immigration sentiment has been strong, and people naturally got annoyed when politicians promised about reducing net figures but literally did nothing. People then sought out the option that would force change and went for it.

Agreed and the EU has always been the easy target. How do they then say that the EU are not as bad as they said it was.
Then Leave conned a large gullible section of the British public into believing that leaving would solve all the problems.

Unfortunately the only way this would ever be resolved is if the UK left and the consequences were laid asunder. If as expected the result is a disaster, no other country will ever leave.

 

[Ramshock]

It’s not irrational to some people though. They think long term gain is worth some short term pain so the same arguments aren’t being listened to because most people already know, and accept it.

They see it as 1 step back and eventually many steps forward. A lot of people don’t seem to be able to grasp that and so they end up getting childish and calling everyone a blue passport wanker. That’s without even getting started on the real brexit fanatics

In your world trade deals are negotiated over night and Brexit wasnt dreamt up by a load of rich men who want to get richer?

 

[Stactix]

Be interesting when we leave, things go to shit. Duh.
Who will leave voters blame? Well, that's fecking obvious. Everyone but themselves and their fecking heroes, Katie Hopkins & Nigel fecking Farage and don't forget Boris and Moggy.
They'll blame the EU for being 'mean' and bullying the UK
They'll blame remainers for not uniting to make it work.
Better get your bingo cards ready.

The flip side, is leave voters will become the political equivalent of a fecking Liverpool supporter, 'Next year is our year la, Britain will thrive la'
Every negative, 'Na na na na next year free trade la' Every positive is treated like the second coming of Gerrard, 'Oi lads, we got us a trade deal with Somalia, MAKE BRITAIN GREAT AGAIN la'

PS: I know Liverpool was mainly remain.

 

[Kentonio]

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

Basically we need to just have the conversation that starts with ‘What do you actually want, and don’t talk shite about ‘taking back control’ or any of that bollocks. What do you actually want to change in your life?’. Because I’ve talked to plenty of Leavers (some of them family and lifelong friends) and what they actually want is just a different Britain that doesn’t leave them feeling isolated and abandoned economically and politically. It has feck all to do with the EU and the only reason they think it does is because the EU was used as a scapegoat by both parties for decades. If you can get past that and feed into their strong belief that the UK political parties aren’t doing anything for them, then the anti-EU stuff quickly becomes a sideshow even for quite ardent leavers. The problem is that politicians aren’t going to have that conversation much because it means admitting they’ve failed the electorate. That’s the appeal of Corbyn for many people, that he offers them a new way.

 

[Stanley Road]

Cameron came back from the eu with a sticky note with some slight change to eu rules that he called 'real change'.

Dont think he ever blamed the eu for Britains failings as i dont believe the tories have ever admitted there's anything wrong with Britain under their rule. People have never been better off and all that shit.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last,

The probability for that is quite low. People are more aware and the lies like the big red bus / NHS won't really work anymore. If there was another referendum, I'd expect it to be 60% plus for stay.

 

[afrocentricity]

The probability for that is quite low. People are more aware and the lies like the big red bus / NHS won't really work anymore. If there was another referendum, I'd expect it to be 60% plus for stay.

You'd think so but I'm not even sure anymore.

 

[Wibble]

Cameron came back from the eu with a sticky note with some slight change to eu rules that he called 'real change'.

Dont think he ever blamed the eu for Britains failings as i dont believe the tories have ever admitted there's anything wrong with Britain under their rule. People have never been better off and all that shit.

David is special. Imagine it becoming publically known that you stuck your dick in a pig head and it isn't in the top 3 of the worst decisions you made.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

You'd think so but I'm not even sure anymore.

Yeah it will be incredibly close either way because of cnuts who will vote Leave on the basis that they are fed up of "project fear".

 

[Stanley Road]

David is special. Imagine it becoming publically known that you stuck your dick in a pig head and it isn't in the top 3 of the worst decisions you made.

Yes quite, a genuine tory loser but not the worst in a long line.