Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
I take it at this point we assume our government is intentionally trying to scare the public with the realities of 'no deal' so we're willing to accept whatever dismal but preferable one we might be able to manage?
 
the idea that most of the people who voted for Brexit are racist is something I've wrestled with myself, it's difficult to stomach as a brit, but it can't be true. But for sure, the number of people who voted due to racism is probably much higher than I'd have ever imagined possible pre-Brexit.
 
Not sure there is any point to
Arguing which proportion of the leave voters were racist and which were just thick or both. Sure there’s a pie chart flying about somewhere.

The main piece of research done post referendum had issues of sovereignty followed by concerns over immigration that gave people cause to vote leave. Having concerns over immigration also doesnt necessarily make someone racist but no doubt there are many who expressed that view those who are racist.

So from just using that basic piece of research it's clear its not just racist people who voted leave and frankly it does appear a bit thick to suggest so. Unless of course you just think, like Mozza, that everyone surveyed was lying and is in fact just a racist in which point any debate is absolutely futile.
 
I would hope that this would be a well organised logistical process, but with this government I can't shake the feeling that they will actually just end up storing piss in empty bottles of white lightning cider like some lost alcoholic uncle in a dilapidated ex council flat.

“The government is facing further criticism today as it emerges that a warehouse full of iceberg lettuce stockpiled for a no deal Brexit have in fact rotten”.
 
The main piece of research done post referendum had issues of sovereignty followed by concerns over immigration that gave people cause to vote leave. Having concerns over immigration also doesnt necessarily make someone racist but no doubt there are many who expressed that view those who are racist.

So from just using that basic piece of research it's clear its not just racist people who voted leave and frankly it does appear a bit thick to suggest so. Unless of course you just think, like Mozza, that everyone surveyed was lying and is in fact just a racist in which point any debate is absolutely futile.

Come on, every single one of those who voted immigration concerns have done so for inherently racist views (or anti-muslim views mostly). Whether that makes them racist or not is for everyone to judge themselves. Majority of those voting in sovereignty will still have had immigration as a concern too.

There's some brexiteers who had more nuanced concerns about the EU but they're the minimum. Of course they are, only a very small slice of this country even bothers to take interest in politics or arm themselves with the facts.
 
Racism is a strange one. It tends to manifest itself in a number of different ways. You'll get people who're mostly okay with Eastern Europeans etc but who are fearful of Muslims. You'll get people who're generally negative about immigrants in general...except the ones they happen to know and who they trust. You'll get people who think these things and vote along these lines, without saying so openly. You'll get people who're racist in groups who experience racism themselves.

On the other hand, you'll get people who're outwardly positive about immigration but who quickly resort to nasty stereotypes/generalisations when discussing immigrants and immigration. You'll get people who are fickle, and who change what they think depending on the general mood at the time.

No one is inherently born racist, but at the same time humans do often find themselves falling to innate prejudices to people they conceive as being 'other' or as a threat. If you're looking for the number of Brexiteers who're full-on KKK 'expel all immigrants' racist, then your number will be incredibly small. If you're looking at Brexiteers whose views on immigration/race are at least partly problematic, but not completely irredeemable, then I imagine your numbers will be a lot higher.

Good post.
 
Fwiw I don't necessarily think not wanting more immigration = anything to do with racism. I'm sure a lot of leave voters voted leave to stop immigration purely because they felt it affected their jobs and prospects, probably the vast majority, really. And it didn't help that the leave campaign were spewing so much Xenophobic nonsense towards them every day.
 
I believe the racist vote swayed it. As did the vote from those that did it on a whim.

My Dad voted leave because he believed stories about it benefiting industry. At least that's a semi-decent reason to vote for it, although I'm still fuming he couldn't see that it probably won't and that he still refuses to acknowledge how bad it's all going. I say semi-decent because most remainers could see it was going to be a mess because there was no plan and the people that really wanted to leave don't want the best for the people, or the world for that matter.
We will never see a benefit from this if it goes through. Why would we? If, by some miracle, anyone does benefit at some point it'll be rich people/politicians, and we'll be told how good it was for the country.

To think how much money has been spent and will be spent on this alone is incredibly frustrating.
 
I don't think a majority of the Leave vote consciously voted that way because they dislike foreigners, although a decent proportion definitely did. However I do think for a lot of them there were varying degrees of xenophobia/racism in the back of their minds which made them more willing to accept anti-immigrant economic/social arguments at face value rather than bother questioning them. In the same way, the Johnson/Rees-Mogg vision of an independent Britain prospering in glorious isolation from Europe is easier to swallow if you already have an idea that Britain is innately superior and has noble attributes not possessed by the rest of Europe who are inept/untrustworthy/out to get us.

It's undeniable though that the Leave campaign definitely thought racism was a decent 'in' with voters, in my area they sent a letter to every house specifically scaremongering about the prospect of Turkey joining the EU and '80m Turks having free movement to come to Britain'. Doesn't take a genius to see what they're getting at there.
 
I don't think a majority of the Leave vote consciously voted that way because they dislike foreigners, although a decent proportion definitely did. However I do think for a lot of them there were varying degrees of xenophobia/racism in the back of their minds which made them more willing to accept anti-immigrant economic/social arguments at face value rather than bother questioning them. In the same way, the Johnson/Rees-Mogg vision of an independent Britain prospering in glorious isolation from Europe is easier to swallow if you already have an idea that Britain is innately superior and has noble attributes not possessed by the rest of Europe who are inept/untrustworthy/out to get us.

It's undeniable though that the Leave campaign definitely thought racism was a decent 'in' with voters, in my area they sent a letter to every house specifically scaremongering about the prospect of Turkey joining the EU and '80m Turks having free movement to come to Britain'. Doesn't take a genius to see what they're getting at there.

That reads like fairly conscious xenophobia. I get why people have a hard time saying it but there is no hiding from it and it's not just about skin color and religion.
 
Fwiw I don't necessarily think not wanting more immigration = anything to do with racism. I'm sure a lot of leave voters voted leave to stop immigration purely because they felt it affected their jobs and prospects, probably the vast majority, really. And it didn't help that the leave campaign were spewing so much Xenophobic nonsense towards them every day.

Exactly. And I'm not even sure preventing immigration was necessarily the main reason for most Leave voters. With the financial crisis, austerity and all the general doom and gloom over the years leading up to the referendum, it will have been very easy to buy into a "MBGA" narrative. They were convinced that best way to secure a prosperous future was to stop the EU leeching off Britain (to prop up failed states like Greece) and somehow roll back time to turn Britain into an independent, economic power-house that could make its own decisions about what is best for British people without all the EU regulations and red tape.

There are so many similarities with the US, in that people project their own primary fears/concerns/prejudices onto the "average" voter when there's really a whole constellation of reasons behind the outcome. If you had to pick the one most common reason it would probably be as simple as wanting a change to the status quo. Of course, the tragedy here is that changing the status quo doesn't mean a change for the better; just a change. And boy are they getting what they voted for!
 
Come on, every single one of those who voted immigration concerns have done so for inherently racist views (or anti-muslim views mostly). Whether that makes them racist or not is for everyone to judge themselves

This doesn't make any sense sorry. Your second sentence contradicts the first.

As for the first sentence - on what are you basing this? Are these your own suspicions or can you provide some sort of research ie a survey of those who voted leave on the basis of being concerned about levels of immigration illustrating that "every single one" of them also holds racist views. Are you saying that people can't be concerned about immigration levels without being inherently racist?

Also - how would you describe the difference between racism and xenophobia?
 
Exactly. And I'm not even sure preventing immigration was necessarily the main reason for most Leave voters. With the financial crisis, austerity and all the general doom and gloom over the years leading up to the referendum, it will have been very easy to buy into a "MBGA" narrative. They were convinced that best way to secure a prosperous future was to stop the EU leeching off Britain (to prop up failed states like Greece) and somehow roll back time to turn Britain into an independent, economic power-house that could make its own decisions about what is best for British people without all the EU regulations and red tape.

There are so many similarities with the US, in that people project their own primary fears/concerns/prejudices onto the "average" voter when there's really a whole constellation of reasons behind the outcome. If you had to pick the one most common reason it would probably be as simple as wanting a change to the status quo. Of course, the tragedy here is that changing the status quo doesn't mean a change for the better; just a change. And boy are they getting what they voted for!
There's one thing above all else I really don't get about this. Obviously a large portion of leave voters were the older generation. But Britain was in economic ruin after WWII and struggled right up until the 80's until they joined the EEC and prospered again. So surely these people know how bad they had it in contrast to now, no? Or maybe they didn't care about the conditions because as far as they're concerned Britain was at least a "free-state" back then where pesky immigrants weren't welcome.
 
That reads like fairly conscious xenophobia. I get why people have a hard time saying it but there is no hiding from it and it's not just about skin color and religion.

The point I was getting at is that a decent number of them who voted for xenophobic/racist reasons probably don't think they did, they think they're making a decision based on the NHS or jobs or whatever. I agree with you and I can see Mozza's point of view because I honestly do think that a lot more people in this country are racist/xenophobic (i.e - have prejudices/discriminate against people of other races/cultures etc.) than people are willing to accept, just those prejudices aren't always on the surface in the way most people imagine when they think of 'a racist'.

I think the whole thing would be a lot simpler in a way if they all were card-carrying racists.
 
There's one thing above all else I really don't get about this. Obviously a large portion of leave voters were the older generation. But Britain was in economic ruin after WWII and struggled right up until the 80's until they joined the EEC and prospered again. So surely these people know how bad they had it in contrast to now, no? Or maybe they didn't care about the conditions because as far as they're concerned Britain was at least a "free-state" back then where pesky immigrants weren't welcome.

I doubt they linked the prosperity of the previous 30+ years to the benefits of EU membership. Probably thought it was Britain's robust economy lifting up the rest of Europe, rather than the other way round. Dunno about racism but nationalism/patriotism definitely played a huge part in the outcome. And, to be fair, when it comes to these sort of emotions racism/xenophobia isn't far behind.
 
Racism is a strange one. It tends to manifest itself in a number of different ways. You'll get people who're mostly okay with Eastern Europeans etc but who are fearful of Muslims. You'll get people who're generally negative about immigrants in general...except the ones they happen to know and who they trust. You'll get people who think these things and vote along these lines, without saying so openly. You'll get people who're racist in groups who experience racism themselves.

On the other hand, you'll get people who're outwardly positive about immigration but who quickly resort to nasty stereotypes/generalisations when discussing immigrants and immigration. You'll get people who are fickle, and who change what they think depending on the general mood at the time.

No one is inherently born racist, but at the same time humans do often find themselves falling to innate prejudices to people they conceive as being 'other' or as a threat. If you're looking for the number of Brexiteers who're full-on KKK 'expel all immigrants' racist, then your number will be incredibly small. If you're looking at Brexiteers whose views on immigration/race are at least partly problematic, but not completely irredeemable, then I imagine your numbers will be a lot higher.

Exactly. The majority of people aren't exactly Nazi style racist but it seems that a majority of people, not only in the UK but also most other European countries, are very mistrusting of people who don't speak their language well, practice a different religion or just look very different to them. It's not even that they hate these people but they are often seen as rude or non-integratable if they don't act and talk like the people the "natives" are more used to. It's ignorance and a lack of tolerance for people who are different to them in some way.

I always have a hard time calling these people racists because I don't think there is anyone really and totally free of prejudice towards people who behave or look different to them. As a bourgeois liberal I always held some prejudice against uneducated, working class and religious people in some way that I still haven't fully grown out of but the key is to remind yourself that it's unfair to judge certain perceived groups of people by how their worst actors behave.

The sad part for me is just that some people are unwilling to realize that human beings are actually prone to these types of generalizations and that you have to be willing to put in mental work to overcome it but I guess it's more convenient to look for arguments that support your feelings than be willing to be challenged on them.
 
The main piece of research done post referendum had issues of sovereignty followed by concerns over immigration that gave people cause to vote leave. Having concerns over immigration also doesnt necessarily make someone racist but no doubt there are many who expressed that view those who are racist.

So from just using that basic piece of research it's clear its not just racist people who voted leave and frankly it does appear a bit thick to suggest so. Unless of course you just think, like Mozza, that everyone surveyed was lying and is in fact just a racist in which point any debate is absolutely futile.

No, I just think that there was enough ill will, call it racist, to get the vote over the line. On that, I think we can all agree that if those voting with racist intentions did not vote then this would not have got over the line right?
 
There's one thing above all else I really don't get about this. Obviously a large portion of leave voters were the older generation. But Britain was in economic ruin after WWII and struggled right up until the 80's until they joined the EEC and prospered again. So surely these people know how bad they had it in contrast to now, no? Or maybe they didn't care about the conditions because as far as they're concerned Britain was at least a "free-state" back then where pesky immigrants weren't welcome.

Are you sure that decade is correct and it wasn't 1973?

The last line doesn't make sense as Britain has always welcomed immigrants from india to the west indies.
 
Are you sure that decade is correct and it wasn't 1973?

The last line doesn't make sense as Britain has always welcomed immigrants from india to the west indies.
Yeah sorry you're right as it was 73 when they joined but I believe it was the 80's when they started to "boom", no?

My history on Britain is admittedly pretty limited post WW2, all I know really is that their economy was in ruins after and took a long time to recover.
I doubt they linked the prosperity of the previous 30+ years to the benefits of EU membership. Probably thought it was Britain's robust economy lifting up the rest of Europe, rather than the other way round. Dunno about racism but nationalism/patriotism definitely played a huge part in the outcome. And, to be fair, when it comes to these sort of emotions racism/xenophobia isn't far behind.
Yeah I've a few friends who live in the UK and they said it's quite incredible/mental/terrifying how many older people they talk to who still see Britain as some wonderful empire that they used to be (not that there was anything wonderful about the British empire)
 
No, I just think that there was enough ill will, call it racist, to get the vote over the line. On that, I think we can all agree that if those voting with racist intentions did not vote then this would not have got over the line right?

Oh yeh I'd agree with that completely. I was taking you up on the assertion that voting leave meant you were either racist, thick or both...

Not sure there is any point to
Arguing which proportion of the leave voters were racist and which were just thick or both. Sure there’s a pie chart flying about somewhere.

And just to clarify I live in an area that voted over 70% leave (I voted remain btw). Yes there are racists here and there are some people who others might regard as thick but there's also those who are are neither who voted to leave. I know people like this.
 
Oh yeh I'd agree with that completely. I was taking you up on the assertion that voting leave meant you were either racist, thick or both...



And just to clarify I live in an area that voted over 70% leave (I voted remain btw). Yes there are racists here and there are some people who others might regard as thick but there's also those who are are neither who voted to leave. I know people like this.

I think that is an important point to make. There is a significant number of people we can label thick, racist or both. The key question is how many non-thick racists voted to leave?

also, I label anyone who votes to make their lives even worse as thick. Let us not get too PC about it. What other words can you use for the poorest regions voting leave so that the only thing keeping them in a job moves to a different country so they can be even poorer? I am sure they will still have some foreigners they can blame for their plight.

What these morons don't and will never realise is that their poverty or perceived hard luck was around well before a brown face ever landed in their country. Fecking idiots.
 
Well they have a low opinion of me purely for the colour of my skin
I think it's your attitude that's the issue. Colour of your skin is irrelevant for most people. I know plenty of white wankers and people don't like them either, they don't cry racism.
 
Voting to leave isn't racism. It was never racism. Immigration is fine but blindly accepting is madness. The reason being the culture becomes unstable. Cultures do not always respect the divide, one will eventually look to dominate. Didn't people used to go to war to protect their people and fight for their land? Now, it seems the way to infiltrate is put those who would fight in a far away country and then pray on the empathy of those watching the lying news media to let everyone in. We've lots of land and I think we can manage. Those that fear monger don't really seem to have much faith in the resourcefulness of this country but there are many nations and many people that would love to leave the EU. Not because Europe isn't an amazing community, it's the fact those in charge are psychos who we never elected, who don't give a shit about us or our community and who don't even care about refugees...All they are to them, is a means to an end. The issue is ending war....that is the issue. But you get these little dictators with a god complex trying to destroy the cultures of Europe. Brexit would be the best thing that could happen because as a country, we WOULD really have to pull together. In the EU, I don't think you can create that same spirit. People have to put aside their differences and that will not happen under a dictatorship because they will flood this nation and destroy it's culture 10 times over. In addition, Brexit was never about racism. Racism is a political tool used to promote multi culturalism which is promotion and celebration of immigration.
 
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And just to clarify I live in an area that voted over 70% leave (I voted remain btw). Yes there are racists here and there are some people who others might regard as thick but there's also those who are are neither who voted to leave. I know people like this.

Yeah, my guess is that the majority of people are misinformed to a fairly dangerous level because they don't know much about what is actually surrounding them, then you have a large minority of racists and then an extremely small amount of people that we arrogantly call thick.
 
Voting to leave isn't racism. It was never racism. Immigration is fine but blindly accepting is madness. The reason being the culture becomes unstable. Cultures do not always respect the divide, one will eventually look to dominate. Didn't people used to go to war to protect their people and fight for their land? Now, it seems the way to infiltrate is put those who would fight in a far away country and then pray on the empathy of those watching the lying news media to let everyone in. We've lots of land and I think we can manage. Those that fear monger don't really seem to have much faith in the resourcefulness of this country but there are many nations and many people that would love to leave the EU. Not because Europe isn't an amazing community, it's the fact those in charge are psychos who we never elected, who don't give a shit about us or our community and who don't even care about refugees...All they are to them, is a means to an end. The issue is ending war....that is the issue. But you get these little dictators with a god complex trying to destroy the cultures of Europe. Brexit would be the best thing that could happen because as a country, we WOULD really have to pull together. In the EU, I don't think you can create that same spirit. People have to put aside their differences and that will not happen under a dictatorship because they will flood this nation and destroy it's culture 10 times over. In addition, Brexit was never about racism. Racism is a political tool used to promote multi culturalism which is promotion and celebration of immigration.

Ok Nigel, calm down.
 
Yeah sorry you're right as it was 73 when they joined but I believe it was the 80's when they started to "boom", no?
Boom and bust economics was Thatchers way. A few made a lot of money while others did not, sounds familiar. Then when traders lost all of their money I could only laugh at them as their tears dripped onto their FiloFaxes.
 
I think that is an important point to make. There is a significant number of people we can label thick, racist or both. The key question is how many non-thick racists voted to leave?

also, I label anyone who votes to make their lives even worse as thick. Let us not get too PC about it. What other words can you use for the poorest regions voting leave so that the only thing keeping them in a job moves to a different country so they can be even poorer? I am sure they will still have some foreigners they can blame for their plight.

What these morons don't and will never realise is that their poverty or perceived hard luck was around well before a brown face ever landed in their country. Fecking idiots.

You're still peddling the same thick and racist narrative here so I think I'll leave it.
 
It's people being so gullible to believe the misinformation they are spoonfed by the media which appeals to them in various ways according to their subconscious prejudices.
People are so lazy that they don't check whether what they've heard is true, it's easier to believe what some bloke down the pub said, or the mate at work or the Daily Express or Farage on LBC or Facebook.

Radical suggestion: why not inform oneself of the facts before voting, wouldn't be difficult.
 
Voting to leave isn't racism. It was never racism. Immigration is fine but blindly accepting is madness. The reason being the culture becomes unstable. Cultures do not always respect the divide, one will eventually look to dominate. Didn't people used to go to war to protect their people and fight for their land? Now, it seems the way to infiltrate is put those who would fight in a far away country and then pray on the empathy of those watching the lying news media to let everyone in. We've lots of land and I think we can manage. Those that fear monger don't really seem to have much faith in the resourcefulness of this country but there are many nations and many people that would love to leave the EU. Not because Europe isn't an amazing community, it's the fact those in charge are psychos who we never elected, who don't give a shit about us or our community and who don't even care about refugees...All they are to them, is a means to an end. The issue is ending war....that is the issue. But you get these little dictators with a god complex trying to destroy the cultures of Europe. Brexit would be the best thing that could happen because as a country, we WOULD really have to pull together. In the EU, I don't think you can create that same spirit. People have to put aside their differences and that will not happen under a dictatorship because they will flood this nation and destroy it's culture 10 times over. In addition, Brexit was never about racism. Racism is a political tool used to promote multi culturalism which is promotion and celebration of immigration.
so you're saying we can do this if we pull together, but europe pulling together is impossible, because, uh, why can't we pull together with our european friends again? because from where I'm standing there's more difference between us than tens of millions of Europeans and me.
 
Radical suggestion: why not inform oneself of the facts before voting, wouldn't be difficult.
That's easier to do if you have some kind of education. Which is also the reason I believe free higher education should be a fundamental part of any democracy.
 
Voting to leave isn't racism. It was never racism. Immigration is fine but blindly accepting is madness. The reason being the culture becomes unstable. Cultures do not always respect the divide, one will eventually look to dominate. Didn't people used to go to war to protect their people and fight for their land? Now, it seems the way to infiltrate is put those who would fight in a far away country and then pray on the empathy of those watching the lying news media to let everyone in. We've lots of land and I think we can manage. Those that fear monger don't really seem to have much faith in the resourcefulness of this country but there are many nations and many people that would love to leave the EU. Not because Europe isn't an amazing community, it's the fact those in charge are psychos who we never elected, who don't give a shit about us or our community and who don't even care about refugees...All they are to them, is a means to an end. The issue is ending war....that is the issue. But you get these little dictators with a god complex trying to destroy the cultures of Europe. Brexit would be the best thing that could happen because as a country, we WOULD really have to pull together. In the EU, I don't think you can create that same spirit. People have to put aside their differences and that will not happen under a dictatorship because they will flood this nation and destroy it's culture 10 times over. In addition, Brexit was never about racism. Racism is a political tool used to promote multi culturalism which is promotion and celebration of immigration.

You see, that's the disinformation that people believe.
 
At this point we should just split the UK into Five parts, brexiteers have all the shitty counties that voted leave, we'll have London, Oxfordshire all the way down to Brighton. Scotland goes independent. NI can do it's own stuck in the past thing. Manchester and Liverpool can do a yin and yang twin city state thing.
 
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That's easier to do if you have some kind of education. Which is also the reason I believe free higher education should be a fundamental part of any democracy.

Some people who aren't poor think that the poor are just "thick" and lazy. It's always been that way.
 
Voting to leave isn't racism. It was never racism. Immigration is fine but blindly accepting is madness. The reason being the culture becomes unstable. Cultures do not always respect the divide, one will eventually look to dominate. Didn't people used to go to war to protect their people and fight for their land? Now, it seems the way to infiltrate is put those who would fight in a far away country and then pray on the empathy of those watching the lying news media to let everyone in. We've lots of land and I think we can manage. Those that fear monger don't really seem to have much faith in the resourcefulness of this country but there are many nations and many people that would love to leave the EU. Not because Europe isn't an amazing community, it's the fact those in charge are psychos who we never elected, who don't give a shit about us or our community and who don't even care about refugees...All they are to them, is a means to an end. The issue is ending war....that is the issue. But you get these little dictators with a god complex trying to destroy the cultures of Europe. Brexit would be the best thing that could happen because as a country, we WOULD really have to pull together. In the EU, I don't think you can create that same spirit. People have to put aside their differences and that will not happen under a dictatorship because they will flood this nation and destroy it's culture 10 times over. In addition, Brexit was never about racism. Racism is a political tool used to promote multi culturalism which is promotion and celebration of immigration.

You spend a few pages reading about Leave voters not being racist or thick and then this chap comes along.