I think May might just be one of the weakest leader's I've ever seen. Mere hours after Trump mocking her and her plans in an interview she just chooses to ignore it and lick his arse anyway.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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Anyone who believes the US and UK have agreed a free trade deal is a muppet.
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Ah come on, It wouldn't be like these two leaders to claim things they haven't actually done.
Trump has no respect for the sovereignty of other countries. He couldn't care less about the UK and the affect Brexit would have on Britain. He just wants to see division and infighting in the EU and in NATO.
The way he's behaving on this trip is appalling. Especially at a time such as this, with the political instability and uncertainty.
The way he's behaving on this trip is appalling. Especially at a time such as this, with the political instability and uncertainty.
Not that I like May or anything, I just don't think she has any reasonable options here. Trump has shown he's never one to back down from an argument, out of pride, regardless of whether he's right/wrong and what the repercussions are. You throw jibes back at him and he will proceed to escalate to no end. Both sides will end up as losers but probably the UK more so.
So her best option is to ignore and move straight past them.
She has very little choice tbh.
Maybe not, but democracy is about compromise.
Is anyone happy with the good friday agreement? Republicans didn't get what they want. Unionists didn't get what they want. But with everyone unhappy, we get peace, and that makes everyone happy.
Brexit needs a compromise similar to Mrs Mays. The Leavers aren't happy. The Remained aren't happy. But with everyone unhappy, maybe we can accept it and move on.
The Good Friday Agreement delivered something important though. Despite their disagreements about the deal, the end result was something everyone wanted. What does this deliver to Remain supporters? Thanks Mrs May, you didn’t feck our country quite as badly as you otherwise might have?
Also the EU aren’t going to accept it anyway, so what does it matter?
Who knew one could be agreed over tea and crumpets in an afternoon
That's The Art of The Deal™
Well that is indeed what the wisdom of the Caf says, but I'm not so sure. Presumably Davis et al think the EU will accept May's proposal, or a doctored version of it at any rate, otherwise they wouldn't have resigned.
I think a greater bar to a deal at the moment is parliament itself, I can see a backlash from many Tories that will mean a significant Tory rebellion, and if Corbyn did actually manage to formulate a plan and exercise control then May's plan could fail here.
As to the inevitable question 'what would happen after that?' well who the feck knows, 'cos I don't.
Only just realised the exit proposal is available online. Read it and weep, chaps.
I obviously couldn't be arsed reading the whole thing but if it's anywhere near as vague and insubstantial as their proposals re Northern Ireland then May et al will be laughed out of Brussels. I mean, fecking hell, look at the state of this.
Ok, this is number 4 on the list so at least it's something they've put a lot of thought into. I mean, there isn't even the vaguest hint of an actual proposal but fear not, the detail must be in Annex B. Didn't include the whole of section 4 but it's all just more of the same shit. Wibbling on about how important the relationship is and how they're going to try to preserve that special relationship, without saying what will actually change, post-Brexit. Like, literally not even a hint.
Anyhoo, on to Annex B. Let's get down to the nitty gritty!
Um.. ok? But, you know, Brexit? What happens then? Even a fecking hint about what is going to change would be just great. Thanks in advance.
I feel like I'm going fecking mad here. PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THE PAST AND THE PRESENT AND TELL US WHAT CHANGES AFTER BREXIT!!!
I obviously couldn't be arsed reading the whole thing but if it's anywhere near as vague and insubstantial as their proposals re Northern Ireland then May et al will be laughed out of Brussels. I mean, fecking hell, look at the state of this.
Ok, this is number 4 on the list so at least it's something they've put a lot of thought into. I mean, there isn't even the vaguest hint of an actual proposal but fear not, the detail must be in Annex B. Didn't include the whole of section 4 but it's all just more of the same shit. Wibbling on about how important the relationship is and how they're going to try to preserve that special relationship, without saying what will actually change, post-Brexit. Like, literally not even a hint.
Anyhoo, on to Annex B. Let's get down to the nitty gritty!
Um.. ok? But, you know, Brexit? What happens then? Even a fecking hint about what is going to change would be just great. Thanks in advance.
I feel like I'm going fecking mad here. PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THE PAST AND THE PRESENT AND TELL US WHAT CHANGES AFTER BREXIT!!!
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I don't even...
That's it?! That's the end of Annex B?
Jesus fecking wept. We're all doomed...
You're right of course, but the thing is, both the EU and Eire don't have any solution either, so a load of waffle that everyone can pretend means something in some way might just get the signatures anyway.
They demonstrably do though. It's just not a solution that the UK government like.
They won't accept it and it has nothing to do with the caf. In fact, you wouldn't accept it yourself if the UK offered a deal where they are equivalent to 27 countries and where nothing is defined and open to unilateral creation.
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I feel sorry the poor civil servants writing this. I mean can you imagine the policy meetings they've done to get an idea of what the ministers want to put in the proposal. Not surprising they've had to fill it with vague nonsense
They do have a solution, it's called staying in the single market. Because that's the only solution.
The UK are the one's who decided to leave, and thus tear up the solution that was already in place. Thus they come up with the solution. Simples.
It's not up to them to come up with a proposal but, if they had to, I'm sure they'd suggest that Northern Ireland remains in the customs union. That's not their call to make but at least it's a concrete outcome which "fixes" the issue of the Northern Irish land border.
This is an opportunity for Britain to present a proposal of their own. As proposals go, the lack of any actual proposal must make this document a bit of a world first.
Would be a wikipedia article for the UK and ROI relationship, though.
There are three solutions:
1. Stay in the Customs Union (or something practically the same even if re-named as a fig leaf for Brexiteers)
2. Move the customs border to the Irish Sea so the island of Ireland is one zone (not popular with the DUP who prop up May’s government)
3. Say screw the consequences for the GFA and impose a hard border again between North and South.
The UK government does not want to commit publicly to any of those choices which is why, 2 years after the referendum, they are still dealing in waffle and platitudes.
It's all just so mental. Straight out of the Thick Of It. That useless prick Davis has been working on this for how long now and he's literally come up with nothing? Zip. Nada.
Like going to the doctor with some sort of serious illness and him saying "don't worry, I got this, I'll get back to you". A year later, you're on death's door. Any chance of a cure, doc? "Oh we'll definitely cure you. Don't worry about that. We'll use technology or something. See you again in a year".
You had one job, you wanker!
They do have a solution as others have mentioned - the problem is that it is a solution the UK at the moment feel they can't accept (which is insane) - The UK need to offer up a viable alternative which they clearly are so far incapable of doing.
Isn't May's waffly proposal an attempt at solution 1, as in 'something practically the same' ? Whether both the EU and Parliament will wear it is of course a different matter, but if they don't we're headed for option 3.
Also the EU aren’t going to accept it anyway, so what does it matter?
The EU are faced with a really interesting negotiating dilemma. It would be very, very easy for them to tell May that her white paper is a pie in the sky, and once again knock her back to the hard brexit status quo. I.e. "goods and services is indivisible", "can't pick and choose elements of the single market", "customs arrangement isn't going to work" and so on.
The problem with doing that is it negotiates us *downwards*. It pushes us towards the hard brexit that the dyed-in-the-wool leavers want. Instead, Barnier needs to negotiate us *upwards*. He needs to up-sell us. He needs to convince May to loosen her grip on 'sovereignty' even further to integrate us into the EU community. And he's done it brilliantly so far, we've gone from "Brexit means Brexit" to "Brexit means accepting EU Law". Keep going and we're at soft brexit.
What does this deliver to Remain supporters?
Hmm let's see.
- No border with Northern Ireland
- Visa free travel to the EU
- Partial visa free working within the EU?
- Staying under most EU laws for goods.
- Free trade not driving the economy completely off the cliff.
- Areas like car manufacturing saved.
Leavers aren't happy. Remainers aren't happy. But there is enough compromise there that the majority of people can live with it.
And that's democracy. It's not perfect, but better than tyranny.
I'll admit to not reading anything other than the Ireland/Northern Ireland stuff, so I'd be curious to know if there's any element in the rest of it that isn't such a pathetic fudge. Can one of the rest of ye do the heavy lifting here?
May's proposal makes a custom agreement impossible, you can't have one out of 27 members creating unilaterally his own set of rules and then the insidious part is the "bilateral", it may sound trivial for some but they are literally considering that their sovereignty is equal to the ones of the 27 put together. Here I'm only talking about the point 19, that alone is absolutely unacceptable.
Hasn't Barnier said 'Brexit deal is 80% agreed'? Of course that is still a long way from full agreement, but I don't see how you could dismiss his statement completely. As I said, personally I'm starting to see Parliament as a bigger obstacle to May's agreement than the EU now.
Don't worry, it actually means the UK will do what the EU says, which of course is what's upsetting the Tory rebels.
The withdrawal agreement is different to a future FTA-CU, we agreed on how we were going to disentangle ourselves at the exception of the Irish border and which programs you might still be part of for example Galileo.
I highly doubt he's actually that confident.
Ok, I read section 10 too (relevant to my job)
Can confirm it's a colossal fudge too.
This bit is great.
The UK will cough up to cover some of EU science funding deficit immediately following Brexit (presumably using all that cash we were promised on the Brexit bus) but only for funds committed while Britain is still in the EU. What happens after that?
Don't worry, it will all be ok.
Phew!
I left out all the other drivel about the past and current situation re science in Britain which, paradoxically, takes up the vast majority of that section. In a document which is supposed to be all about what the future will look like. For feck's sake...
Can confirm it's a colossal fudge too.
This bit is great.
The UK will cough up to cover some of EU science funding deficit immediately following Brexit (presumably using all that cash we were promised on the Brexit bus) but only for funds committed while Britain is still in the EU. What happens after that?
Don't worry, it will all be ok.
Phew!
I left out all the other drivel about the past and current situation re science in Britain which, paradoxically, takes up the vast majority of that section. In a document which is supposed to be all about what the future will look like. For feck's sake...
@Pogue Mahone I read it, it's the same in almost every paragraphs, on every subjects.
FFS...
I bet you feel you know so much about English history now though.
Reckon they originally wrote it and it was only five pages long and they went .. "shit.. what else can we put in here?"
If there were a World Obfuscation Cup then British civil servants would win it every year. Or the yanks, one of us anyway.
For me, the only option is for Northern Ireland to stay in the customs union.
It can be out of the single market, and instead be part of the UK services market.
It can be part of the UK fisheries and agriculture (although probably should share agriculture rules with Ireland).
It can be part of the UK rules for immigration.
It can have UK laws rather than EU laws.
But it should be part of the EU's customs area.
The only way that the NI-UK customs border will cause problems, is if the UK-EU customs border causes problems. And if the UK-EU customs border causes problems, Brexit has failed, and we don't have a deep and comprehensive free trade agreement and customs solution.
If NI stays in the Customs Union, then there is no need for any land border with Ireland. And the UK can go about finding a sensible, normal customs solution not based on magic and pixie dust.
Yeah ... I'm not sure she can make a deal. If she conceded the points to the EU that would be necessary to make a deal, then the conservative party will start a vote of no confidence she'll lose. Shes not that close to a workable deal and quite close to losing the party. Her own party are against anything but a hard brexit, same with the media, the interpretation of the vote, the opposition (seemingly). Theres just no basis or foundation to get a soft brexit through. She's buying time with the fudge of the current white paper trying to get enough of her party on side to drag it over the line and it really doesn't look likely to happen. If she manages to get a soft brexit to a vote in parliament she'll have done a brilliant job imo.