Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Adisa said:
Lib Dems broke a manifesto promise .Labour will do nothing like that.
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They would if they were to do ''oppose it properly''(Whatever that actually means)

Adisa said:
I'm not even saying the should throw away the referendum but it's not even clear if the party is opposed to hard Brexit.
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Yeah I would agree that Labour position is rubbish.

This thread is a somewhat explanation of Labour position and I posted last week a FT story about the EU being more worried about the left wing uk government than the tories(Worry about the spread of socialism :wenger:).


The whole situation is a shit show but as I've many times I've yet to hear from anyone who offer a better and not completely destroy the Labour Party.
 
This is for the younger generation:

In his LBC phone-in Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative Brexiter, claimed that Brexit offered particularly good opportunities for young people. He said:

I think in terms of the Brexit debate that the great opportunities for everybody, but particularly the younger generation, are in leaving and looking to the broader horizon of the rest of the world rather than the narrow closed protectionist European field. For younger people, leaving is the best opportunity that they could have.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
This is for the younger generation:

In his LBC phone-in Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative Brexiter, claimed that Brexit offered particularly good opportunities for young people. He said:

I think in terms of the Brexit debate that the great opportunities for everybody, but particularly the younger generation, are in leaving and looking to the broader horizon of the rest of the world rather than the narrow closed protectionist European field. For younger people, leaving is the best opportunity that they could have.
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Does he actually provide any substance to that argument? I'm guessing not...
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Doubtful, as I have yet to hear any Brexiter state any specific benefit of Brexit.
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Not true they have claimed many specific benefits such as
nintchdbpict000245081470-e1496343647398.jpg

And the fact its not true shouldnt be a shock - I mean they are fed up of experts etc
 
Paul the Wolf said:
This is for the younger generation:

In his LBC phone-in Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative Brexiter, claimed that Brexit offered particularly good opportunities for young people. He said:

I think in terms of the Brexit debate that the great opportunities for everybody, but particularly the younger generation, are in leaving and looking to the broader horizon of the rest of the world rather than the narrow closed protectionist European field. For younger people, leaving is the best opportunity that they could have.
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I'm now curious to hear his proposals for a) How he intends to make it easier for young people to go and work in other non-EU countries, and b) Why those countries offer a better opportunity for young people than European countries would.
 
Kentonio said:
I'm now curious to hear his proposals for a) How he intends to make it easier for young people to go and work in other non-EU countries, and b) Why those countries offer a better opportunity for young people than European countries would.
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One way freedom of movement. Fits in with the Brexit Cake strategy; im sure countries around the world will be desperate to sign up.
 
sun_tzu said:
Not true they have claimed many specific benefits such as
nintchdbpict000245081470-e1496343647398.jpg

And the fact its not true shouldnt be a shock - I mean they are fed up of experts etc
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Yes, I should have said specific benefits that are not lies.

You do realise that the bus is a figment of your imagination, Brexiters denied knowledge of its existence shortly thereafter.
 
Kentonio said:
I'm now curious to hear his proposals for a) How he intends to make it easier for young people to go and work in other non-EU countries, and b) Why those countries offer a better opportunity for young people than European countries would.
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Probably when they sign their free trade deal with India allowing Indians and Brits freedom of movement between both countries.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
This is for the younger generation:

In his LBC phone-in Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative Brexiter, claimed that Brexit offered particularly good opportunities for young people. He said:

I think in terms of the Brexit debate that the great opportunities for everybody, but particularly the younger generation, are in leaving and looking to the broader horizon of the rest of the world rather than the narrow closed protectionist European field. For younger people, leaving is the best opportunity that they could have.
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I read that as young brits should get the feck out of dodge as quickly as possible before it all goes to shit. Don’t bother looking in Europe because they won’t have you
 
Leaving customs union properly is most popular post-Brexit customs option, poll suggests
We’ve got some new Guardian/ICM polling out today. And its good news (ish) for Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Customs union
First, we asked about the customs union. As the psephologist John Curtice explained in a recent blog for What UK Thinks, the existing polling on this topic is not very satisfactory. If you ask people if they are in favour of customs checks for people and goods coming from the EU, they tend to say yes. But if you ask people if they are in favour of staying in the customs union (which would remove the need for said checks), they also say yes. “One feature of the polling and survey evidence to date is that few pollsters and researchers have dared attempt to ask voters specifically about what customs arrangement the UK should have with the EU,” Curtice says.

Well, we had a go. We asked people which of these three statements on customs after Brexit they most agreed with. The results were:

It is very important to leave the customs union properly, so the UK can strike its own trade deals: 35%

It is very important to stay in the customs union, so firms can trade with the EU more easily: 24%

The best solution might involve some sort of compromise, perhaps along the lines of the customs partnership, because the alternative proposals are both flawed: 26%

We did not put names to the three options, but ‘leaving the customs union properly’ is the position associated with Tories like Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, or Jacob Rees-Mogg, head of the 60-strong European Research Group. Staying in the customs union is the Labour party position. And a compromise seems to be what Theresa May wants. She argues that the customs partnership, supposedly her favoured option, does involve leaving the customs union properly, but Brexiters don’t accept that, which is why we mentioned it in this context.

  • The post-Brexit customs policy championed by Brexiters like Boris Johnson is most popular with voters, the poll suggests. A third of voters want a customs policy that prioritises leaving the customs union properly, while only a quarter of voters want to stay in a customs union, while another quarter favour a compromise. But you could also read the figures as showing that 50% of voters are opposed to a clean break with the customs union. Some 15% of respondents said they did not know.
Customs union polling
Extending the transition
The post-Brexit transition period is due to come to an end in December 2020 but there has been a lot of speculation that it will have to be extended. Damian Green, the former first secretary of state, became the latest person to float this idea at the weekend. Downing Street insists this will not happen, although there have been some hints that they could shift.

We told respondents there was talk of the transition being extended to allow new customs arrangements to be introduced and asked them if they would support or oppose this. Here are the results.

Polling on extending the transition.
  • Nearly half of voters oppose extending the Brexit transition, the poll suggests. Some 43% of people said they were against this idea, even when it was suggested this might be necessary to allow time for new customs arrangements to be introduced. But 38% of people said they were in favour. Another 19% said they did not know.
As ICM’s Alex Turk points out, opinion was polarised along political party and leave/remain lines.

While views are fairly evenly split, more of the British public oppose (43%) than support (38%) extending the Brexit transition period beyond 2020. These views are polarised along party and EU referendum lines: two-thirds (67%) of 2016 Leave voters and 3 in 5 (62%) of those intending to vote Conservative oppose extending the transition period, whereas three in five (59%) 2016 Remain voters and almost half (49%) of those intending to vote Labour support extending the transition period.

Voting intention
  • The Conservatives retain a 3-point lead over Labour, the poll suggests. This is unchanged from the 3-point the Tories had in the Guardian/ICM poll two weeks ago.
Voting intention
The tables will go up on the ICM website later today. I will post a link here when they are available.

ICM Unlimited interviewed a representative online sample of 2,050 adults aged 18+, between 11 and 13 May 2018. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

Guardian Poll

Maintain the majority of the British electorate did not and still do not know what they voted for.

People being asked about transition period extension - at this moment there is no chance of a transitional period let alone an extension.

Corbyn is like a striker standing in front of an open goal and misses the target every single time.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Leaving customs union properly is most popular post-Brexit customs option, poll suggests
We’ve got some new Guardian/ICM polling out today. And its good news (ish) for Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Customs union
First, we asked about the customs union. As the psephologist John Curtice explained in a recent blog for What UK Thinks, the existing polling on this topic is not very satisfactory. If you ask people if they are in favour of customs checks for people and goods coming from the EU, they tend to say yes. But if you ask people if they are in favour of staying in the customs union (which would remove the need for said checks), they also say yes. “One feature of the polling and survey evidence to date is that few pollsters and researchers have dared attempt to ask voters specifically about what customs arrangement the UK should have with the EU,” Curtice says.

Well, we had a go. We asked people which of these three statements on customs after Brexit they most agreed with. The results were:

It is very important to leave the customs union properly, so the UK can strike its own trade deals: 35%

It is very important to stay in the customs union, so firms can trade with the EU more easily: 24%

The best solution might involve some sort of compromise, perhaps along the lines of the customs partnership, because the alternative proposals are both flawed: 26%

We did not put names to the three options, but ‘leaving the customs union properly’ is the position associated with Tories like Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, or Jacob Rees-Mogg, head of the 60-strong European Research Group. Staying in the customs union is the Labour party position. And a compromise seems to be what Theresa May wants. She argues that the customs partnership, supposedly her favoured option, does involve leaving the customs union properly, but Brexiters don’t accept that, which is why we mentioned it in this context.

  • The post-Brexit customs policy championed by Brexiters like Boris Johnson is most popular with voters, the poll suggests. A third of voters want a customs policy that prioritises leaving the customs union properly, while only a quarter of voters want to stay in a customs union, while another quarter favour a compromise. But you could also read the figures as showing that 50% of voters are opposed to a clean break with the customs union. Some 15% of respondents said they did not know.
Customs union polling
Extending the transition
The post-Brexit transition period is due to come to an end in December 2020 but there has been a lot of speculation that it will have to be extended. Damian Green, the former first secretary of state, became the latest person to float this idea at the weekend. Downing Street insists this will not happen, although there have been some hints that they could shift.

We told respondents there was talk of the transition being extended to allow new customs arrangements to be introduced and asked them if they would support or oppose this. Here are the results.

Polling on extending the transition.
  • Nearly half of voters oppose extending the Brexit transition, the poll suggests. Some 43% of people said they were against this idea, even when it was suggested this might be necessary to allow time for new customs arrangements to be introduced. But 38% of people said they were in favour. Another 19% said they did not know.
As ICM’s Alex Turk points out, opinion was polarised along political party and leave/remain lines.

While views are fairly evenly split, more of the British public oppose (43%) than support (38%) extending the Brexit transition period beyond 2020. These views are polarised along party and EU referendum lines: two-thirds (67%) of 2016 Leave voters and 3 in 5 (62%) of those intending to vote Conservative oppose extending the transition period, whereas three in five (59%) 2016 Remain voters and almost half (49%) of those intending to vote Labour support extending the transition period.

Voting intention
  • The Conservatives retain a 3-point lead over Labour, the poll suggests. This is unchanged from the 3-point the Tories had in the Guardian/ICM poll two weeks ago.
Voting intention
The tables will go up on the ICM website later today. I will post a link here when they are available.

ICM Unlimited interviewed a representative online sample of 2,050 adults aged 18+, between 11 and 13 May 2018. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

Guardian Poll

Maintain the majority of the British electorate did not and still do not know what they voted for.

People being asked about transition period extension - at this moment there is no chance of a transitional period let alone an extension.

Corbyn is like a striker standing in front of an open goal and misses the target every single time.
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Corbyn is completely paralysed. Even the worst of previous Labour leaders would have been laying into the Tories week after week, and Labour would be well ahead in the polls now, not behind as they are.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Guardian Poll

Maintain the majority of the British electorate did not and still do not know what they voted for.

People being asked about transition period extension - at this moment there is no chance of a transitional period let alone an extension.
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Asking the British public polling questions about complex issues is utterly pointless. You could ask them whether they'd rather trade with Greenland or Iceland and 50% of the dumb cnuts would say Tesco.
 
711 said:
Corbyn is completely paralysed. Even the worst of previous Labour leaders would have been laying into the Tories week after week, and Labour would be well ahead in the polls now, not behind as they are.
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He's paralysed himself. It's a simple case of a leader who has always supported exit from the EU supporting exit from the EU but whose supporters has to pretend there's some kind of unavoidable reason for it.

What get me is the insincerity of those who want to pretend under Corbyn we finally have a left-wing alternative to the Tory option. On the biggest issue of the last 70 years, Corbyn is on the exact same page as the Tories. We just have to pretend otherwise else it's a 'smear', or something.



Thank God at a time of Tory chaos over Brexit we have a leader of the opposition who has the balls to stand up and say: I completely agree with them.
 
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Oscie said:
What get me is the insincerity of those who want to pretend under Corbyn we finally have a left-wing alternative to the Tory option. On the biggest issue of the last 70 years, Corbyn is on the exact same page as the Tories. We just have to pretend otherwise else it's a 'smear', or something.
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If Brexit didn't exist, would you prefer Tories to run the country or Labour?
 
Stanley Road said:
If Brexit didn't exist, would you prefer Tories to run the country or Labour?
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Labour. But Brexit does exist so that's an irrelevant question. I genuinely don't understand the lack of genuine anger at Corbyn's position coming from the left/the young, the vast majority of whom think Brexit was/is/always will be a shit idea. It's akin to the Lib Dem betrayal on tuition fees times a million as it's the whole country being sold down the river.

When was the last time Corbyn (read: not a backbench vote/proposal/groundswell) really nailed the Tories on Brexit? When was the last time he really held them to account on the issue? if people weren't so clouded by borderline idolising him it'd be clear that history will judge his 'opposition' to what could be one of the worst political, economic and social catastrophes to face this country in generations, to be an absolute fecking disgrace.

But he's just the leader of the opposition at a time when the government is divided, doesn't have a working majority on the issue and leader of a party whose MPs, members, voters and natural political allies oppose Brexit in all it's forms. What's a leader supposed to do with such cards stacked against him, eh?
 
May could not have wished for more.
Biggest opposition is coninc from within our own party.
 
Oscie said:
Labour. But Brexit does exist so that's an irrelevant question. I genuinely don't understand the lack of genuine anger at Corbyn's position coming from the left/the young, the vast majority of whom think Brexit was/is/always will be a shit idea. It's akin to the Lib Dem betrayal on tuition fees times a million as it's the whole country being sold down the river.

When was the last time Corbyn (read: not a backbench vote/proposal/groundswell) really nailed the Tories on Brexit? When was the last time he really held them to account on the issue? if people weren't so clouded by borderline idolising him it'd be clear that history will judge his 'opposition' to what could be one of the worst political, economic and social catastrophes to face this country in generations, to be an absolute fecking disgrace.

But he's just the leader of the opposition at a time when the government is divided, doesn't have a working majority on the issue and leader of a party whose MPs, members, voters and natural political allies oppose Brexit in all it's forms. What's a leader supposed to do with such cards stacked against him, eh?
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Labour need the working class vote in it's homelands like the Midlands and the North East that voted for Brexit. Add to that Corbyn believes in Brexit and you can see why he isn't speaking out against it.
 
Oscie said:
Labour. But Brexit does exist so that's an irrelevant question. I genuinely don't understand the lack of genuine anger at Corbyn's position coming from the left/the young, the vast majority of whom think Brexit was/is/always will be a shit idea. It's akin to the Lib Dem betrayal on tuition fees times a million as it's the whole country being sold down the river.

When was the last time Corbyn (read: not a backbench vote/proposal/groundswell) really nailed the Tories on Brexit? When was the last time he really held them to account on the issue? if people weren't so clouded by borderline idolising him it'd be clear that history will judge his 'opposition' to what could be one of the worst political, economic and social catastrophes to face this country in generations, to be an absolute fecking disgrace.

But he's just the leader of the opposition at a time when the government is divided, doesn't have a working majority on the issue and leader of a party whose MPs, members, voters and natural political allies oppose Brexit in all it's forms. What's a leader supposed to do with such cards stacked against him, eh?
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You've made it a brexit question.
 
endless_wheelies said:
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Jesus.

Separately, a failure to "recruit enough people with the right skills to deliver a UK State System of Accountancy for control of nuclear material to meet international obligations by 2019" was also a red risk.

The document lists seven ways that risk can be mitigated, including "redefined person spec" and that standards may be lowered to plug the skills gap, suggesting there are insufficiently trained personnel.
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Labour had one job on their hands...Corbyn should hang his head in shame by prioritising a quarter of party supporters over vast majority of remainers. What a shambles of the situation.
 
Rajma said:
Labour had one job on their hands...Corbyn should hang his head in shame by prioritising a quarter of party supporters over vast majority of remainers. What a shambles of the situation.
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He's not prioritising anything.
Corbyn wants hard Brexit. That fact is becoming clearer by the day.
 
So Labour will continue to appease the leave vote. Despite it being perfectly clear it was won by lies and fear. Real principles and all that.

Wonderful party. No wonder the Tories have it so easy.
 
Rajma said:
Labour had one job on their hands...Corbyn should hang his head in shame by prioritising a quarter of party supporters over vast majority of remainers. What a shambles of the situation.
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That's my take on it too. I'm sick of hearing about this 30% Labour Leavers group who have to be catered for, when apparently the 70% can just go feck themselves.
 
Kentonio said:
That's my take on it too. I'm sick of hearing about this 30% Labour Leavers group who have to be catered for, when apparently the 70% can just go feck themselves.
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It’s not strategy, it’s just what he favours. The British hard left have been not much more amenable to EU membership than the likes of John Redwood. It’s just that, having been on the defensive since 1979, they have had 101 other things to fight against while the Tory right wing has been able to indulge their grand obsession amid a generally favourable (for them) political climate.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Can’t really blame Corbyn for falling for the campaign of lies and fear. Everybody else did
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You really can.

I can see where some could have sympathy with society's most vulnerable, gullible and isolated for falling for the lies and fear. Not sure leader of the opposition really fits into that category. Corbyn is a better ally to May on Brexit than probably the majority of her own party. I can't imagine any Labour leader of the last 30 plus years who'd give her as easy time in the same scenario. She's genuinely fallen on her feet with that.
 
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Adisa said:
He's not prioritising anything.
Corbyn wants hard Brexit. That fact is becoming clearer by the day.
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That was clear well before the referendum and was pointed out, it's why he hardly said anything before the referendum.

People are still stuck with this Tory vs Labour allegiance. That's not what's at stake, it's the country's future that's at stake and the numpties are getting their way.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Maybe the Russians got to him then.

What possible reasons could Corbyn have for wanting to leave the EU?
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He's always been anti-EU. Which is fine but it irritates when people pretend somehow his hands are tied. He isn't opposing hard Brexit because he supports hard Brexit and always has.
 
Corbyn expressed his doubts about the EU in the past, there wasn't exactly any gusto in his rhetoric to remain, and now he is intent on the UK being removed. All of it makes it obvious enough that he isn't the pro-EU idealist that people still appear to dream of him becoming in order to thwart Brexit at the last moment.

With all of that said, what are the fundamental issues behind Corbyn's opposition to the EU? If all of this isn't necessarily stemming from his opposition to the EU, then what is the long game in terms of domestic politics?

I'm sure there are some people here who knew of him long before he became fashionable and have a greater insight into what his intentions are.
 
Kentonio said:
That's my take on it too. I'm sick of hearing about this 30% Labour Leavers group who have to be catered for, when apparently the 70% can just go feck themselves.
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The problem he has is if he loses the 30% Labour Leavers will he gain the same number in Tory Remainers?
 
He's perfectly entitled to be anti-EU but it's the pretence that he's in some kind of catch 22 situation forcing him to support hard Brexit has become infuriating.

Leader of the opposition whose party backs remain/soft Brexit by some distance against a divided govt who can't command a majority in its own cabinet for what it wants to do (not that it knows what it wants to do yet) let alone the wider commons. To pretend somehow there's nothing Corbyn can do but back the Johnson/Rees-Mogg wet-dream Hard Brexit is a complete piss take. And yet so blinded are people by their loyalty to the man they will genuinely argue that case.
 
Mozza said:
The problem he has is if he loses the 30% Labour Leavers will he gain the same number in Tory Remainers?
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UKIP is the turd in the punchbowl on this one admittedly. They Labour leave voters aren’t going Tory but they might go UKIP. Tory Remainers probably aren’t going Corbyn Labour realistically. I see the political calculation, it just enrages me, along with people still holding a grudge against the Lib Dems while being ok with accepting the Tories fecking them every which way. Like it’s ok to be a cnut as long as you’re open about it.
 
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