Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Abizzz]

Conservative John Redwood MP on sky news just now:

The British government is very clear, they are not going to impose new hard borders between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, when we leave the European Union. If the EU wants to that is something they have to sort out with their member state the Republic of Ireland. We're very clear we don't need them and we don't want them.

The level of delusion of the conservative politicians currently in power is astonishing and frightening at the same time. Mr. Redwood i'll build you a pool, but i'll be very clear, I don't need or want walls. If the water wants to flow away that is something you need to sort out with your friend gravity.

All democracies have their share of idiots representing them, but this is getting out of hand.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Conservative John Redwood MP on sky news just now:


The level of delusion of the conservative politicians currently in power is astonishing and frightening at the same time. Mr. Redwood i'll build you a pool, but i'll be very clear, I don't need or want walls. If the water wants to flow away that is something you need to sort out with your friend gravity.

All democracies have their share of idiots representing them, but this is getting out of hand.

The problem is not him saying it. The problem is he has been saying it for 2 years straight and not one single interviewer has pulled him up on it for the lie that it is. WTO rules means we must put a border up between ourselves and any other regulatory areas. This is basic knowledge that interviewers should know.

 

[Silva]

The problem is not him saying it. The problem is he has been saying it for 2 years straight and not one single interviewer has pulled him up on it for the lie that it is. WTO rules means we must put a border up between ourselves and any other regulatory areas. This is basic knowledge that interviewers should know.

of course, Ireland the EU won't want to be the one who break the GFA either, but if there's no border in Ireland, and no controls between NI and the mainland you can bet your arse the EU will just let immigrants trying to get to Britain go through Ireland

or, even easier, suspend passport controls in Calais

 

[JPRouve]

of course, Ireland the EU won't want to be the one who break the GFA either, but if there's no border in Ireland, and no controls between NI and the mainland you can bet your arse the EU will just let immigrants trying to get to Britain go through Ireland

or, even easier, suspend passport controls in Calais

It's more a french decision than EU one, in theory passports are supposed to be controlled in Dover or in general on UK's soil.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

of course, Ireland the EU won't want to be the one who break the GFA either, but if there's no border in Ireland, and no controls between NI and the mainland you can bet your arse the EU will just let immigrants trying to get to Britain go through Ireland

or, even easier, suspend passport controls in Calais

You talk as if the EU are sending immigrants to the UK just to piss the UK off.

The controls are done by both by Ireland for entry into Ireland and by the UK for those entering the UK as both are not in Schengen.
The Uk border is currently not in Dover but in Calais and the French border is in Dover for those entering the country
You can also think the other way round, maybe the EU want to keep the Brits out.

Other than maintaining the GFA, people are the least of the problems for the border, it's the goods that cross the borders in Ireland and UK/other EU countries that are the major problem.

 

[Silva]

You talk as if the EU are sending immigrants to the UK just to piss the UK off.

I mean they might if the UK acts in bad faith regarding the border

 

[711]

You talk as if the EU are sending immigrants to the UK just to piss the UK off.

The controls are done by both by Ireland for entry into Ireland and by the UK for those entering the UK as both are not in Schengen.
The Uk border is currently not in Dover but in Calais and the French border is in Dover for those entering the country
You can also think the other way round, maybe the EU want to keep the Brits out.

Other than maintaining the GFA, people are the least of the problems for the border, it's the goods that cross the borders in Ireland and UK/other EU countries that are the major problem.

You can interpret the referendum result in many ways, but I think an awful lot of Leave voters were more concerned with people than goods.

They may well be totally wrong to do so of course, but for them people are not the least of problems. Try and win hearts and minds on that by all means, but if you just ignore it you'll get the same referendum result again.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I mean they might if the UK acts in bad faith regarding the border

But at the moment if you travel from France to the UK via Calais/Dover for example the chances are your passport will only be checked by the UK officials and if you travel from the UK to France normally only the French will check it, ie the country you are entering and not the country you are leaving.

But if all this not agreed by both sides before the UK leave then the UK will drop out of everything the EU, the CU and the SM and the border will have to go up anyway. The EU realise this but the UK government don't want to acknowledge it.

 

[Silva]

You can interpret the referendum result in many ways, but I think an awful lot of Leave voters were more concerned with people than goods.

They may well be totally wrong to do so of course, but for them people are not the least of problems. Try and win hearts and minds on that by all means, but if you just ignore it you'll get the same referendum result again.

it's more of a legal issue isn't it, for the border to remain open there can't be any regulatory divergence, so if the EU passes new rules regarding, say, ph levels in cheese, the UK has to adopt them too

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You can interpret the referendum result in many ways, but I think an awful lot of Leave voters were more concerned with people than goods.

They may well be totally wrong to do so of course, but for them people are not the least of problems. Try and win hearts and minds on that by all means, but if you just ignore it you'll get the same referendum result again.

Yes I agree, but I'm thinking in practical terms more than the rights and wrongs or reasons.
My biggest problem with the whole thing is not the fact that Leavers voted thus but that in reality it's almost impossible to pull off and no-one thought of the consequences of doing so, well people did but no-one listened.

 

[711]

Yes I agree, but I'm thinking in practical terms more than the rights and wrongs or reasons.
My biggest problem with the whole thing is not the fact that Leavers voted thus but that in reality it's almost impossible to pull off and no-one thought of the consequences of doing so, well people did but no-one listened.

Rightio, and to Silva too. Can't see past a hard border myself, and have thought that since the referendum was called.

Let's not be coy, the reason we don't want a hard border between the Irelands is fear of violence from Nationalists, and the reason we don't want a hard border between NI and the rest of Britain is fear of violence from the Unionists. Should the English etc have voted Remain because of threats like that? I don't think so, I did vote Remain but it wasn't out of consideration of the Irish border.

 

[JPRouve]

Rightio, and to Silva too. Can't see past a hard border myself, and have thought that since the referendum was called.

Let's not be coy, the reason we don't want a hard border between the Irelands is fear of violence from Nationalists, and the reason we don't want a hard border between NI and the rest of Britain is fear of violence from the Unionists. Should the English etc have voted Remain because of threats like that? I don't think so, I did vote Remain but it wasn't out of consideration of the Irish border.

Are you asking if it is a good reason to vote remain?

I'm tempted to say yes, particularly if you consider that Northern Ireland is actually part of your nation and if you value their well being, I would never vote for something that would most likely ruin the day to day life of compatriots, especially when there is little benefits for the rest of the country.

 

[Silva]

Rightio, and to Silva too. Can't see past a hard border myself, and have thought that since the referendum was called.

Let's not be coy, the reason we don't want a hard border between the Irelands is fear of violence from Nationalists, and the reason we don't want a hard border between NI and the rest of Britain is fear of violence from the Unionists. Should the English etc have voted Remain because of threats like that? I don't think so, I did vote Remain but it wasn't out of consideration of the Irish border.

an open border is part of the stage one agreement though, the only way for a hard border to come about is if negotiations fall through and there's no agreement whatsoever

 

[Jippy]

Are you asking if it is a good reason to vote remain?

I'm tempted to say yes, particularly if you consider that Northern Ireland is actually part of your nation and if you value their well being, I would never vote for something that would most likely ruin the day to day life of compatriots, especially when there is little benefits for the rest of the country.

This might sound callous and inconsiderate, but I suspect many English people deep down are not really that bothered about Northern Ireland. Most have never been and have little interest in visiting and the country is a drain on the UK as a whole.
Plus the whole situation and thing has been dragging on for all of our lifetimes.

 

[711]

Are you asking if it is a good reason to vote remain?

I'm tempted to say yes, particularly if you consider that Northern Ireland is actually part of your nation and if you value their well being, I would never vote for something that would most likely ruin the day to day life of compatriots, especially when there is little benefits for the rest of the country.

It is a one good reason, but I don't think it should be the overriding reason. Whether the British did indeed think it was of little benefit should be the main basis of voting, not fear of terrorism.

 

[711]

This might sound callous and inconsiderate, but I suspect many English people deep down are not really that bothered about Northern Ireland. Most have never been and have little interest in visiting and the country is a drain on the UK as a whole.
Plus the whole situation and thing has been dragging on for all of our lifetimes.

It's a thing the rest of the world won't understand, and certainly not the Irish, but most English people consider themselves as neutrals, caught up in Irish issues only because of historic responsibility.

Average Joe English would like nothing more than Northern Ireland to be a separate country, stand-alone, one Ireland, something else, they don't care and haven't for a couple of generations.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Rightio, and to Silva too. Can't see past a hard border myself, and have thought that since the referendum was called.

Let's not be coy, the reason we don't want a hard border between the Irelands is fear of violence from Nationalists, and the reason we don't want a hard border between NI and the rest of Britain is fear of violence from the Unionists. Should the English etc have voted Remain because of threats like that? I don't think so, I did vote Remain but it wasn't out of consideration of the Irish border.

I also think like @Jippy said, I doubt many voters on the UK mainland care much about the Irish border but it was pointed out before the referendum that if the Irish border was to remain open then the UK couldn't leave the CU thus it's either one or the other, the UK leaves completely and breaks the GFA or it stays at least in the CU.
This wasn't made clear to the voters but as you say they probably didn't care anyway.

The problem is the UK government wants their cake and eat it - this is completely bewildering the EU because there will be no transition period if the Irish border issue is not settled. The EU is still waiting for the UK government to choose which way they want to go.

 

[JPRouve]

It's a thing the rest of the world won't understand, and certainly not the Irish, but most English people consider themselves as neutrals, caught up in Irish issues only because of historic responsibility.

Average Joe English would like nothing more than Northern Ireland to be a separate country, stand-alone, one Ireland, something else, they don't care and haven't for a couple of generations.

So we go back to my initial point, they don't consider NI and don't see Northern Irish as compatriots. Of course it's only an assumption but that's what I see from the outside.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So we go back to my initial point, they don't consider NI and don't see Northern Irish as compatriots. Of course it's only an assumption but that's what I see from the outside.

I don't think people from the north of England consider people from the south of England as compatriots either or vice versa

 

[Jippy]

So we go back to my initial point, they don't consider NI and don't see Northern Irish as compatriots. Of course it's only an assumption but that's what I see from the outside.

We're basically British when it suits us, eg Murray winning Wimbledon, but we obviously have our football teams and very much our own identities.

 

[711]

I also think like @Jippy said, I doubt many voters on the UK mainland care much about the Irish border but it was pointed out before the referendum that if the Irish border was to remain open then the UK couldn't leave the CU thus it's either one or the other, the UK leaves completely and breaks the GFA or it stays at least in the CU.
This wasn't made clear to the voters but as you say they probably didn't care anyway.

The problem is the UK government wants their cake and eat it - this is completely bewildering the EU because there will be no transition period if the Irish border issue is not settled. The EU is still waiting for the UK government to choose which way they want to go.

So we go back to my initial point, they don't consider NI and don't see Northern Irish as compatriots. Of course it's only an assumption but that's what I see from the outside.

Agree with both of you! I hope I'm wrong but I have been saying for a while, I see a hard brexit and hard border.
As for the GFA, very difficult times to come I'm afraid.

 

[Jippy]

I don't think people from the north of England consider people from the south of England as compatriots either or vice versa

That too, but after 17 years of beijg a northener living in London, I've long since got that chip off my shoulder!

After growing up in East Yorks where you barely ever saw, let alone met, a foreigner or person of colour, it wasn't until uni, then London when I got to meet loads of people from different nationalities and cultures. No surprise E. Yorks was massively vote leave, given their fear of the unknown.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Agree with both of you! I hope I'm wrong but I have been saying for a while, I see a hard brexit and hard border.
As for the GFA, very difficult times to come I'm afraid.

Yes unless May eventually (within the next few months) backs down because she doesn't want to be seen as the person who broke the GFA.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That too, but after 17 years of beijg a northener living in London, I've long since got that chip off my shoulder!

After growing up in East Yorks where you barely ever saw, let alone met, a foreigner or person of colour, it wasn't until uni, then London when I got to meet loads of people from different nationalities and cultures. No surprise E. Yorks was massively vote leave, given their fear of the unknown.

Like when you walk into a pub in the countryside, everyone stares and the whole place goes quiet.

 

[Jippy]

Like when you walk into a pub in the countryside, everyone stares and the whole place goes quiet.

Last time I had that was in a rough pub near White Hart Lane. We stayed for one then got out of there.

 

[711]

Yes unless May eventually (within the next few months) backs down because she doesn't want to be seen as the person who broke the GFA.

Or the government falls. A real possibility either from the DUP withdrawing support, or from Tories rebelling. A total lack of leadership from Corbyn on Europe is giving May a free ride at the moment though.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Or the government falls. A real possibility either from the DUP withdrawing support, or from Tories rebelling. A total lack of leadership from Corbyn on Europe is giving May a free ride at the moment though.

But what does happen if the government fell, I really have no idea. Have the feeling that if Corbyn was electable the whole thing may have already been called off. May can't believe her luck that her opponent is Corbyn.
I bet she can't believe her luck that Trump is in office as well to divert attention away from the mess the UK has become.

 

[711]

[QUOTE="Paul the Wolf, post: 22171974, member: 87651"]But what does happen if the government fell, I really have no idea. Have the feeling that if Corbyn was electable the whole thing may have already been called off. May can't believe her luck that her opponent is Corbyn.[/QUOTE]

Me neither, just hoping it would be something that changed the course of events.

 

[JPRouve]

But what does happen if the government fell, I really have no idea. Have the feeling that if Corbyn was electable the whole thing may have already been called off. May can't believe her luck that her opponent is Corbyn.
I bet she can't believe her luck that Trump is in office as well to divert attention away from the mess the UK has become.

I feel that Macron and others feel the same.

 

[Silva]

May can't believe her luck that her opponent is Corbyn.

that's what she thought when she called the 2017 general election and lost her majority

 

[Paul the Wolf]

that's what she thought when she called the 2017 general election and lost her majority

But what if the Labour party leader had been better than Corbyn, she may have lost power completely.
May is a terrible PM but Corbyn is just as hopeless as an opposition leader, he could have had her for breakfast in parliament but didn't.
He's just waiting for May to really foul up and get in power through the back door hoping he'll get elected by default.

 

[Silva]

But what if the Labour party leader had been better than Corbyn, she may have lost power completely.
May is a terrible PM but Corbyn is just as hopeless as an opposition leader, he could have had her for breakfast in parliament but didn't.
He's just waiting for May to really foul up and get in power through the back door hoping he'll get elected by default.

if labour had a different leader they would have far less grassroot support and would definitely lose

 

[PedroMendez]

Good blog post about future free trade negotiations: https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/02/13/grandfathering-eu-ftas/

 

[cyberman]

It's a thing the rest of the world won't understand, and certainly not the Irish, but most English people consider themselves as neutrals, caught up in Irish issues only because of historic responsibility.

Average Joe English would like nothing more than Northern Ireland to be a separate country, stand-alone, one Ireland, something else, they don't care and haven't for a couple of generations.

Well there's a bit more to it than simply saying historic responsibility but a lot of Irish people would agree with you.
There's a certain percentage in Northern Ireland that don't and it's not hard to work out who they are.
The funny thing is that they don't see themselves as British but as wannabe English. That's the problem, they never see Scotland / Wales as an example and it stunts progress.

 

[Silva]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ng-thinktanks-talks-to-ditch-eu-safety-checks

 

[Mozza]

Workers rights, consumer protections and safety standards will all be lessened if Brexit happens

 

[Steven Seagull]

Workers rights, consumer protections and safety standards will all be lessened if Brexit happens

How do you know?

 

[Oscie]

How do you know?

I guess nobody can know until it happens, in the same way we can't know before it happens a Tory govt will seek to restrict funding to the NHS but it tends to always be a safe bet.

Certainly I'm not confident that a weak Tory leader beholden to hard-right back-benchers and right-wing, homophobic, religious nutjobs in Northern Ireland won't seek an opportunity to weaken certain rights, protections, freedoms and safety standards when it comes to enshrining these things into UK law.

 

[Cheesy]

 

[Jippy]

If only...