Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Bury Red]

I can't really explain it but our logic is more that something being french is more important than it being better.

I'd have said the French for the most part are extremely proud of being French but can also be quite self deprecating and critical of modern France. There are regional traits and the Parisians can come across as rude and abrasive, the Marseillaise as hot headed and arrogant etc but as a nation you're generally pretty laid back.

The Germans have a pretty big national ego as well but keep it well buttoned down for fear of what that has brought them in the past but beneath the cold shell there is a pretty solid certainty that in many ways they are better than the rest of Europe. To be fair when it comes to organisation, engineering and a fair few other areas they're probably right too.

The Brits are a fairly schizophrenic group. You're as likely to meet an overly polite, self deprecating Brit who will go out of their way to apologise for how we are perceived on the continent and pretty much anything else they can think we might be blamed for as you are the stereotypical xenophobic bigot complete with bulldog tattoo and an attitude that says Europe should still be on bended knee thanking us for saving them and should all learn to speak bloody English while they're about it. Unfortunately empty vessels make most noise so those of us who do speak other languages and try to fit in and be active participants in Europe tend to be drowned out by the pillocks who we must apologise profusely for once again, sorry about any jelly related traumas in your childhood while we're at it.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I can't really explain it but our logic is more that something being french is more important than it being better.

That definitely explains your cars.

 

[JPRouve]

That definitely explains your cars.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I think most Europeans would be genuinely shocked if they understood just how strong the UK's national sense of superiority is. It's not far behind the American version. I think people often misunderstand however and think people are joking or just playing around, when in fact a frightening number of Brits genuinely believe being British makes them far better than anyone else, including their European neighbours and the Americans.

I can't really agree with you on that. I don't really come across people expressing such views in a genuine way, or even a joking way. I mean I'll admit that I know plenty of people that are racist and little Englanders but but I don't know anyone with such an obscene sense of superiority based on nationality.

 

[I Believe]

However, what I am certain about is that for Europe to evolve then it needs the UK out of Europe.

Precisely, the EU should be paying the UK to leave!

 

[Kentonio]

I can't really agree with you on that. I don't really come across people expressing such views in a genuine way, or even a joking way. I mean I'll admit that I know plenty of people that are racist and little Englanders but but I don't know anyone with such an obscene sense of superiority based on nationality.

I don't think its expressed verbally in the way the Americans often do, but I see it a lot (often from people I'd never expect it from) when an issue comes up that actually requires them to think in that context. Brexit has revealed it starkly, again not in terms of people actually saying they are better, but in terms of their expectations of how other not British people will act or react or how Britain will act or react to certain things.

Sorry I know I'm not being very clear.

 

[C3Pique]

Remember folks, it' the evil EU holding us back. Easiest trade deals in human history...

 

[711]

I come from an island myself and I have been living on islands for most of my life. I find that there's plenty of common traits in islanders. We are resilient, independent and stubborn. We're also opportunists (in Malta there's a say which state that the islands had never refused any free grain) and we tend to have this overflated ego as if the entire world rotate around us.

However the big differenceI find between Malta and the UK is their love for Europe (apart from the obvious ex size or military strength) . Ever since the dawn of time the Maltese always felt European.Rumours say that the locals rebelled against Carthage during the Punic wars, we fought against all odds in two great sieges even though Suleiman the magnificent was a far better leader then the pesky knights. When Italy converted to fascism we turned our back to them, preferring colonialism to independence even though the islands nearly always found a great friend and ally in Italy. Needless to say we paid a very heavy price in each occasion.

The UK share a very different history. Roman influence wasn't seen a defying moment in history but as an invasion. That influence ended up in betrayal as Roman armies pulled out to defend the dying empire leaving Brittania defenseless. After that nearly every single invasion from the Anglo Saxon invasion to the viking invasion right to the Norman invasion was pretty hostile and bloody. When the Tudors came to power, 'Christian Europe' betrayed England again by siding with Catherine of Aragon + the holy roman empire and against the then pious Henry Tudor. That paved the way to reformation, the constant fear of a crusade which occurred in Elizabeth's time and which shaped the UK renowned 'divide and conquer' tactic which made the UK the then most powerful nation in the world. From Elizabeth I till WW2 the UK will use that tactic magnificently pitting most big European countries against each other while it was busy adding lands elsewhere through colonialisation.

I honestly don't know if its good for the UK to be out of Europe. Some think its a good thing and to be fair the UK does seem to mellow with countries such as the US as compared to Europe. However, what I am certain about is that for Europe to evolve then it needs the UK out of Europe. We cant build a more integrated Europe (lets face it blocs of nations are the future) with someone who simply don't trust its neighbours.

This is relevant. I don't think the majority of British ever wanted a more integrated Europe, they just wanted an efficient free trade area. Maybe the six founders should have considered that a bit more when they accepted Britain's application to join.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The only wool being pulled is by the EU, they are about as undemocratic in structure and in process as you can get.



We can both have our views on the amount of democracy in the British system, but not I'm afraid compared with the EU. As your helpful article indicated the Council and Commissioners are unelected, the President is appointed and so are the Commissioners, and it is they who decide strategy and policy with no recourse to the public to change them e.g. they are not up for election every five years.

In Britain the party leaders are known before the election, the existing cabinet/shadow cabinets give an indication of who represents what brief in Government/opposition. These people, all of them, are directly accountable to their constituents and as MPs are up for election every five years.
The Lords are unelected, but like the MEP's they only scrutinize proposed policy/laws/regulations, they can recommend changes but ultimately the Commons (in Britain) the Commission (in EU) decides.

Our commons are elected the EU commission is not.. simples!

Totally disagree - the commons doesn't decide policy, the cabinet are appointed by the PM the same way as the Commission is appointed. The president is also elected by those members and the parliament . One per country currently 28 soon to be 27.
The farce that was the voting this week in the HoC on the Withdrawal Bill - let me take a guess the next vote result when the voting resumes will it be 316-297 majority of 19 votes or something very very similar, Brexiters can fool their own kind but that's all.
As for policy the manifestos they don't last very long do they, the last one I believe lasted 3 days. MEPs are equal to MPs they are voted by their constituents as well and should be accountable but they're not ,are they ,as their only job appears to make childish remarks in the EU parliament when they actually bother to turn up.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I can't really explain it but our logic is more that something being french is more important than it being better.

I think that applies to most countries, if you go to the UK, eat British Meat, in France, eat French meat and I bet it's the same in most countries - it's just to promote their own products.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Arent the French as bad? I always think in that way the two countries are quite similar - probably as a result of their similar colonial past.

I honestly can never remember a french person going to the UK and speak in french to anybody in a shop , hotel, restaurant and so on and expect the person they are talking to , to be able to understand what they are saying and if they don't understand then proceed to increase the volume which they may believe will assist the person they are talking to, to understand .

 

[Kentonio]

I honestly can never remember a french person going to the UK and speak in french to anybody in a shop , hotel, restaurant and so on and expect the person they are talking to , to be able to understand what they are saying and if they don't understand then proceed to increase the volume which they may believe will assist the person they are talking to, to understand .

That would be really fecking funny though.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That would be really fecking funny though.

I'll try it next time I'm in the UK

By the way just heard May's got until the 4th December to stop the Cake and eat it routine.

 

[Jippy]

I honestly can never remember a french person going to the UK and speak in french to anybody in a shop , hotel, restaurant and so on and expect the person they are talking to , to be able to understand what they are saying and if they don't understand then proceed to increase the volume which they may believe will assist the person they are talking to, to understand .

Would love to see that.

 

[JPRouve]

I think that applies to most countries, if you go to the UK, eat British Meat, in France, eat French meat and I bet it's the same in most countries - it's just to promote their own products.

Hell no! You can keep your minted meat.

 

[Stanley Road]

This is relevant. I don't think the majority of British ever wanted a more integrated Europe, they just wanted an efficient free trade area. Maybe the six founders should have considered that a bit more when they accepted Britain's application to join.

Totally agree

Also one thing I will never understand, if you'd like to buy billions of pounds of goods per year off us, you will have to pay for it.

My company gives huge discounts to regular customers not a penalty, they'd be bankrupt otherwise, shove your tariffs up yer hole we'll go somewhere else.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Hell no! You can keep your minted meat.

Haha, I'm not allowed to give blood in France because I lived in the UK when all the cows were mad.
Now it's just the people, hohoho

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Totally agree

Also one thing I will never understand, if you'd like to buy billions of pounds of goods per year off us, you will have to pay for it.

My company gives huge discounts to regular customers not a penalty, they'd be bankrupt otherwise, shove your tariffs up yer hole we'll go somewhere else.

It's the Uk imposing the tariffs, the British people paying the British government

 

[Stanley Road]

I'd have said the French for the most part are extremely proud of being French but can also be quite self deprecating and critical of modern France. There are regional traits and the Parisians can come across as rude and abrasive, the Marseillaise as hot headed and arrogant etc but as a nation you're generally pretty laid back.

The Germans have a pretty big national ego as well but keep it well buttoned down for fear of what that has brought them in the past but beneath the cold shell there is a pretty solid certainty that in many ways they are better than the rest of Europe. To be fair when it comes to organisation, engineering and a fair few other areas they're probably right too.

Germans definitely, our HR guy said something the other day tongue in cheek, so I asked if he was being racist.

"Of course I am, I'm German" came the reply

Whats is it tho with British people knocking their own sort all the time? I don't get it at all. Other Europeans don't do it and they are equally proud and some of them equally as natiaonalistic.

 

[Stanley Road]

It's the Uk imposing the tariffs, the British people paying the British government

Right, so anything we buy from eu after brexit will have tariffs cos the uk want them? Ok

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Right, so anything we buy from eu after brexit will have tariffs cos the uk want them? Ok

Yes, if a Brit buys a German car ,as a popular example, the car say costs £50k, the Uk customer pays £5k (10%) to the UK government for the privilege.
Of course it's the same the other way round.

Much better to have free following customs union etc.

 

[Stanley Road]

Yes, if a Brit buys a German car ,as a popular example, the car say costs £50k, the Uk customer pays £5k (10%) to the UK government for the privilege.
Of course it's the same the other way round.

Much better to have free following customs union etc.

Much prefer business model, discounts to large and regular customers.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Much prefer business model, discounts to large and regular customers.

Edit: my post should say flowing not following.

That's what happens anyway, the tariffs are nothing to do with the producers, sellers or buyers in the UK or the EU.

 

[Stanley Road]

Edit: my post should say flowing not following.

That's what happens anyway, the tariffs are nothing to do with the producers, sellers or buyers in the UK or the EU.

Pointless, charge me to spend billions. Do you get that?

 

[Balljy]

Totally agree

Also one thing I will never understand, if you'd like to buy billions of pounds of goods per year off us, you will have to pay for it.

My company gives huge discounts to regular customers not a penalty, they'd be bankrupt otherwise, shove your tariffs up yer hole we'll go somewhere else.

We have a trade deficit to the EU of more than 60 billion per year but that's about 3 to 4% of the overall EU economy. 13% of our economy is to the EU. They're a bigger customer to us than we are to them.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Pointless, charge me to spend billions. Do you get that?

Who is charging you?
Are you talking about the £8bn the Uk pay to the EU?

The £8bn/year the Uk think they are going to save in after they leave up to 2021 is forecast to cost them £65bn but this doesn't include the leaving bill nor the move to WTO tariffs .
The Uk don't want customs union so deal with the consequences, these are the consequences.
The £8bn will seem very cheap very quickly.
The biggest problem with Brexit is that no-one thought of the consequences, the Irish border's another one and that's just the start.
I know it's scaremongering.

 

[Adebesi]

I honestly can never remember a french person going to the UK and speak in french to anybody in a shop , hotel, restaurant and so on and expect the person they are talking to , to be able to understand what they are saying and if they don't understand then proceed to increase the volume which they may believe will assist the person they are talking to, to understand .

True.

 

[Wibble]

We have a trade deficit to the EU of more than 60 billion per year but that's about 3 to 4% of the overall EU economy. 13% of our economy is to the EU. They're a bigger customer to us than we are to them.

And a huge proportion of the physical things we sell to the EU is due to companies like car assemblers who set up where they did because we are within the EU. These sorts of companies will stop setting up in the UK and many even close plants and move production to within the EU again. Services are our biggest export and we have already seen financial services companies moving overseas. So we are going to suffer there again.

The bottom line is that what now occurs isn't very important as things will change for the worse for us after Brexit. The EU may suffer as well but we haven't given them a choice - we told them we are leaving. Now it is up to them to negotiate the best deal for the EU, not the best deal for the UK.

 

[JPRouve]

Germans definitely, our HR guy said something the other day tongue in cheek, so I asked if he was being racist.

"Of course I am, I'm German" came the reply

Whats is it tho with British people knocking their own sort all the time? I don't get it at all. Other Europeans don't do it and they are equally proud and some of them equally as natiaonalistic.

It's our national sport around here. We just do it between ourselves, spanish and italians are the same.

 

[I Believe]

the cabinet are appointed by the PM the same way as the Commission is appointed.

But everyone of the British cabinet are directly elected by their constituents first. The EU Commissioners are elected by nobody, in fact many of them receive their Commissioner appointment as a 'pay off,' Kinnock, Mandelson, etc. from Britain

MEPs are equal to MPs

Now you are really having a laugh aren't you? I'll grant that they are elected, but their role is scrutiny only, they have no ability to reject only to refer policy, regulations etc. The equivalent in Britain would be if the House of Lords (Scrutinise)were to be elected, like MEPs and the House of Commons (Law makers) appointed like the Commissioners. The elected representatives in the EU Parliament are only there as window dressing for democracy, they have no powers other than to talk and sift or proof read if you prefer and then to do their masters, the Commissioners, bidding.

Its a farce, that ironically will only have the chance of survival, if Britain leaves the EU and Germany and France in particular are free to ride roughshod over the other members.

 

[Hammerfell]

Is David Davis an actual moron?

 

[Kentonio]

Germans definitely, our HR guy said something the other day tongue in cheek, so I asked if he was being racist.

"Of course I am, I'm German" came the reply

That just sounds like typically dry German humour.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But everyone of the British cabinet are directly elected by their constituents first. The EU Commissioners are elected by nobody, in fact many of them receive their Commissioner appointment as a 'pay off,' Kinnock, Mandelson, etc. from Britain



Now you are really having a laugh aren't you? I'll grant that they are elected, but their role is scrutiny only, they have no ability to reject only to refer policy, regulations etc. The equivalent in Britain would be if the House of Lords (Scrutinise)were to be elected, like MEPs and the House of Commons (Law makers) appointed like the Commissioners. The elected representatives in the EU Parliament are only there as window dressing for democracy, they have no powers other than to talk and sift or proof read if you prefer and then to do their masters, the Commissioners, bidding.

Its a farce, that ironically will only have the chance of survival, if Britain leaves the EU and Germany and France in particular are free to ride roughshod over the other members.

I can see you're deliberately trying to mislead your Brexit pals again - let's take it step by step.

First stage: Questions: who proposes the Commissioners? How many commissioners are there from each country? Who are the Commissioners accountable to and who can dissolve the Commission by a vote of no confidence. To enhance your last point how many commissioners are there from France and how many from Germany to disprove your masters theory of the Commissioners?

 

[I Believe]

I can see you're deliberately trying to mislead your Brexit pals again - let's take it step by step.

First stage: Questions: who proposes the Commissioners? How many commissioners are there from each country? Who are the Commissioners accountable to and who can dissolve the Commission by a vote of no confidence. To enhance your last point how many commissioners are there from France and how many from Germany to disprove your masters theory of the Commissioners?

No misleading Paul, EU Commissioners are appointed ( 28) nominated by their respective countries, national leaders nominate the President, he allocates Commissioners their briefs. None of the commissioners receive direct public support or are subject to direct selection from the public, either in their own countries or in the wider EU constituency. The Commission takes ideas and suggestions from a range of EU bodies/experts and turns into policies/regulations. The public in general throughout the EU never see or have a chance to debate, or more importantly reject policies, etc.

Members of the House of Commons are elected by their constituents, the leader of the largest party becomes Prime Minister, they select MPs to serve in the cabinet. Policies of each party are discussed and agreed at annual Party Conferences and these form the backbone of the Party's Manifesto presented to the public at election time and later they become the basis for the Queens Speech, for the party that is elected, i.e. directly by the public.

 

[Abizzz]

No misleading Paul, EU Commissioners are appointed ( 28) nominated by their respective countries, national leaders nominate the President, he allocates Commissioners their briefs. None of the commissioners receive direct public support or are subject to direct selection from the public, either in their own countries or in the wider EU constituency. The Commission takes ideas and suggestions from a range of EU bodies/experts and turns into policies/regulations. The public in general throughout the EU never see or have a chance to debate, or more importantly reject policies, etc.

Members of the House of Commons are elected by their constituents, the leader of the largest party becomes Prime Minister, they select MPs to serve in the cabinet. Policies of each party are discussed and agreed at annual Party Conferences and these form the backbone of the Party's Manifesto presented to the public at election time and later they become the basis for the Queens Speech, for the party that is elected, i.e. directly by the public.

Right, so who in England voted for the DUP to have a veto over any government policy? Undemocratic with your understanding of democracy, surely?

 

[2mufc0]

A year later and the pound and economy has tanked making everyone poorer, I wonder how many Brexiteers have changed their minds now.

 

[C3Pique]

Anyone saying that the German car manufacturers won't want tariffs applied to the UK are missing a major point and obviously don't understand how businesses think.

Yes, tariffs for UK sales will make them slightly less competitive in the UK market (65m people). But a unilateral tariff on UK made goods into the EU (like Honda, Nissan, and most important, JLR) makes the UK made goods less competitive in the EU market (400m people). So for a German car manufacturer, tariffs actually help them to lock competitors from the UK out of the larger EU market.

That's before we even look at the difficulties it will cause for the UK manufacturers operating JIT with components crossing the UK - EU border several times before completion.

A 'no deal' scenario also locks UK manufacturers out of the numerous free trade deals which German manufacturers have benefitted from en route to becoming the biggest car producers in the world - trade deals which the UK are extremely unlikely to be able to replicate in any quick time.

If I'm VW, BMW or Mercedes I'm excited at the prospect of no deal - several competitors instantly hamstrung within the EU and wider world market at the cost of a slight decline in the UK market.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No misleading Paul, EU Commissioners are appointed ( 28) nominated by their respective countries, national leaders nominate the President, he allocates Commissioners their briefs. None of the commissioners receive direct public support or are subject to direct selection from the public, either in their own countries or in the wider EU constituency. The Commission takes ideas and suggestions from a range of EU bodies/experts and turns into policies/regulations. The public in general throughout the EU never see or have a chance to debate, or more importantly reject policies, etc.

Members of the House of Commons are elected by their constituents, the leader of the largest party becomes Prime Minister, they select MPs to serve in the cabinet. Policies of each party are discussed and agreed at annual Party Conferences and these form the backbone of the Party's Manifesto presented to the public at election time and later they become the basis for the Queens Speech, for the party that is elected, i.e. directly by the public.

You're doing it again by half answering the question. I'll get you there in the end. I fear it may be a long process.

Who appoints the Commissioners?
How many commissioners does Germany have - one out of 28 - what about France - one out of 28 but in your previous post it was the Commissioners running the EU and France and Germany riding roughshod over the others whereas for anything to pass the commission has to have a majority 15/28 - France and Germany equals 1+1 = 2/28 - so are the Commissioners the masters?
Another point you missed out again was who are the Commissioners accountable to - oh yes - The European Parliament, you know those 751 MEPs elected by their constituents. The same EU Parliament that can bring a vote of no confidence in the Commissioners.

Of course it's much more involved than that but at least we can dispel some myths. We're making a start.

 

[I Believe]

Who appoints the Commissioners?

They are appointed, not elected, that's the point, Paul. In a democracy we elect the law makers, we don't appoint them!

so are the Commissioners the masters?

Indeed they are, they make the policy and I never said there were more commissioners for Germany or France, every country nominates one, the President dishes out the briefs. I was making the point Germany has (perhaps we ought now to say had) more influence, with France a close second, on what the Commissioners consider in terms of strategy and policy, the National Leaders see to that, which is the 'roughshod' bit!
Macron must be having 'wet dreams' about the power he will garnish from Mrs Merkel experiencing her little local difficulties, at home, but if he doesn't get the UK to 'stump-up' and rattles his sabre too much, he will get the blame for the chaos that will ensue. Of course Mrs Merkel knows a thing or two about how and when to keep her head down!

The same EU Parliament that can bring a vote of no confidence in the Commissioners.

When did that last happen? Nearest thing to it, the Santer Commission Resignations, with Edith Cresson escaping real punishment with the help of the ECJ. Corruption and incompetence all rolled into one!

 

[I Believe]

Right, so who in England voted for the DUP to have a veto over any government policy?

Nobody, I suspect in England, but quite a few in NI, which if you are not familiar, is part of the UK and actually takes its seats in the Westminster Parliament.