Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Govt have refused to reveal anything in Brexit papers that is 'commercially sensitive' or 'damaging to negotiations'.

Looks like Bercow is going to do his nut. Wouldn't be surprised if he orders full unredacted publication within 48 hours.
 
JPRouve said:
The important part is the rest. Cabinet ministes are generally(almost exclusively) selected from a pool of elected representative but it's not a constitutional obligation, Lords can be selected too. But again that's not the important part in that conversation, you still don't have a say on who gets nominated and in reality you can't even systematically sanction them when they do a bad job unless they are in your constituency.
So in both cases you have a representative democracy where the elected head of states, with the approval of the representative organ, nominates cabinet ministers, that's the democratic part.
You could add a criteria that dictates that commissioners have to be nominated from the pool of MEPs, but it wouldn't change anything from the public point of view, I still won't be able to nominate the Energy commissioner and I can't sanction Le Pen.
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I think we've agreed that both are representative democracies, that bit is getting repetitive, but the 'wouldn't change anything' bit is wrong, a prime minister can dismiss a cabinet minister very easily, and if not the voters could elect someone else as MP. That might not matter to you I accept, but to others it is more democratic. It might simply be a case of preferring what you're used to of course.
 
712 said:
I think we've agreed that both are representative democracies, that bit is getting repetitive, but the 'wouldn't change anything' bit is wrong, a prime minister can dismiss a cabinet minister very easily, and if not the voters could elect someone else as MP. That might not matter to you I accept, but to others it is more democratic. It might simply be a case of preferring what you're used to of course.
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But there is a big difference between undemocratic and more democratic, I only argued against the undemocratic claim. Also there is an important nuance in your statement, you only elect a small part of the MPs pool, if you are unhappy with a cabinet minister, you can only sanction him if he is in your constituency. And the European parliament can dismiss the commission, now the process being democratic makes it a lot more difficult than it is for a head of state to dismiss a cabinet minister.

8. The Commission, as a body, shall be responsible to the European Parliament. In accordance with Article 234 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the European Parliament may vote on a motion of censure of the Commission. If such a motion is carried, the members of the Commission shall resign as a body and the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy shall resign from the duties that he carries out in the Commission.
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I Believe said:
Hurrah, at last! thank you.
Paul you can dress it up anyway you want but the people who make the law in the EU are unelected, as you confirm they are appointed, the public has no direct say in who is nominated, who is selected, and to what post in the Commission.

MP's in the UK have to be first of all elected by the their constituents, before they can be appointed by the Prime Minister to cabinet, who (he/she) also has themselves to be elected as a MP. MP's have to retain communications with their constituents, normally through holding regular surgery's in their constituencies and/or via mail/email etc. in short they are in contact with the people who elected them and can be dismissed by them at Election times, possibly in future they can be 'recalled' if they fail to perform their duties.

Commissioners have no such duties to a direct electorate, they receive information from recognised EU bodies, which may be used to underpin policy, but they do not face any kind of selection process via the public, nor do they have to seek approval from the public at regular elections

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You bet they did, hammered the lid firmly down, no washing of dirty linen here and it took a further six years to bring Cresson to the ECJ and guess what it did?

MEP's can do little more than scrutinise, they cannot initiate policy and represent for many people the best seats on the EU gravy-train.
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Regarding the highlighted point you have completely described the appointment of cabinet ministers, thank you for finally admitting it, well almost.

You are doing it again though , you quote certain words and completely ignore any part that doesn't suit your agenda thus you are only able to quote a few words and take everything out of context, every time you quote someone you do the same thing and that is why I stopped discussing with you previously.

If you want to talk about about MPs and MEPs roles they are the same, I know you like your favourite MEP who is stealing a living at the EU parliament and somehow manages to have a radio show when maybe he should be concentrating on his constituents.

If you want to talk about scandals and corruption we can investigate much more recent British activity like Fox and Hunt who incidentally have made a comeback as cabinet ministers in different roles, you can't get rid of them can you and I can list dozens of others if you so wish.

So as you ignore my points because you don't like them I'll repeat them yet again and again and again...

Your point was that the Commissioners are the masters of the EU, already proved you wrong, got your fingers in your eyes, are you going la la la or singing Rule Britannia.
You've completely ignored the France and Germany point, is it because you admit you were not telling the truth or you don't understand about the demographics.

As for the PM sacking one of the cabinet ministers, why hasn't she sacked any of the 3 musketeers , they are clearly, and I'm being very clear on this, totally incompetent whether you are a Remainer or a Brexiter.

Who are the people on the EU gravy train, not Murdoch is it? No that's the UK.
 
JPRouve said:
But there is a big difference between undemocratic and more democratic, I only argued against the undemocratic claim. Also there is an important nuance in your statement, you only elect a small part of the MPs pool, if you are unhappy with a cabinet minister, you can only sanction him if he is in your constituency. And the European parliament can dismiss the commission, now the process being democratic makes it a lot more difficult than it is for a head of state to dismiss a cabinet minister.
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Yeah, I think we're roughly agreed. Bear in mind that a in Britain a PM can quickly go as well of course, due to a challenge from within their own party, or by vote of no confidence from the house as a whole, neither of which would come as a surprise at this very moment actually.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
If you want to talk about about MPs and MEPs roles they are the same
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Sorry Paul they are not! MP's make laws, MEPs merely scrutinize

Paul the Wolf said:
You are doing it again though , you quote certain words and completely ignore any part that doesn't suit your agenda thus you are only able to quote a few words and take everything out of context, every time you quote someone you do the same thing and that is why I stopped discussing with you previously.
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You stopped discussing because you couldn't provide a valid different argument, you are doing it again now attacking my choice of quotes, because you cannot answer the point so you denigrate the presentation... pot, kettle..black!

The EU commissioners are not elected and it is these individuals who decide the EU policy and make the laws, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make it right Paul... even if you stamp your feet as well;)
 
JPRouve said:
the democratic part is in the mandate that you gave to the head of states to represent you.
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So that's it is it? So really we should have in the EU not the unelected commissioners, deciding policy , laws etc. as now, but heads of state..sort of a Presidential component?.. think you will find not everyone agrees!
 
I Believe said:
So that's it is it? So really we should have in the EU not the unelected commissioners, deciding policy , laws etc. as now, but heads of state..sort of a Presidential component?.. think you will find not everyone agrees!
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I don't understand that post.
 
I Believe said:
So that's it is it? So really we should have in the EU not the unelected commissioners, deciding policy , laws etc. as now, but heads of state..sort of a Presidential component?.. think you will find not everyone agrees!
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We're getting bogged down in tumescent procedural technicalities.

Do the OBR's abject forward growth projections fill you with hope about our future free of the EU yoke?

How would you feel if the government cuts a a last minute EEA-style deal cos it realises Brexit is going to be so much more ruinous to the economy than anyone can imagine?
 
Stanley Road said:
Good to see Amazon in the spotlight again, winning the race to the bottom, at least the eu will protect their workers rights, right?
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I'd imagine they'd do a better job of protecting workers right than a Tory government who've gloated again and again about how Brexit will allow them to accelerate deregulation, yes.
 
Stanley Road said:
Yes. Toilet breaks timed. 2 days off sick and you're on a pip. Have torys introduced that?
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I know at least one warehouse that has a rule about people only being allowed to be sick 3 times in a year, even if its just a day. Pretty sure they'd get fecked in an employment tribunal, but then again the government got rid of most legal aid, so yay..
 
Kentonio said:
I know at least one warehouse that has a rule about people only being allowed to be sick 3 times in a year, even if its just a day. Pretty sure they'd get fecked in an employment tribunal, but then again the government got rid of most legal aid, so yay..
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Just goes on to show that parity between employer and employee is a wet dream in theory of law.
 
I Believe said:
Sorry Paul they are not! MP's make laws, MEPs merely scrutinize



You stopped discussing because you couldn't provide a valid different argument, you are doing it again now attacking my choice of quotes, because you cannot answer the point so you denigrate the presentation... pot, kettle..black!

The EU commissioners are not elected and it is these individuals who decide the EU policy and make the laws, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make it right Paul... even if you stamp your feet as well;)
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I'll repeat the EU commissioners are selected by the 28 individual countries, not by Germany , not by France, they only select one each and the Commissioners from all different parties across the EU. The cabinet ministers are selected by the PM , not because they are good at that particular job, they are there to particularly help the PM in her personal power strategy, unlike in the EU where the Commissioners are answerable to the EU parliament , all controlled by one person, cabinet ministers all of them can only be fired by one person , the PM - no votes from the public not answerable to anyone other than her.

Do you realise how stupid it sounds when you say that 28 commissioners decide EU policy and make the laws with no recourse to anyone. You know it, anyone with any intelligence knows it it Josef Goveballs propaganda machine unfortunately Brexiters don't have the ability to distinguish truth from fantasy

You've ignored all the points yet again , you want to believe lies like all Brexiters do but as you know the whole Brexit idea is based on lies, can a Brexiter actually tell the truth.

Those risk assessments should be made available, hope the Brexiters haven't tried to conceal things from the general public, I mean why should they, after all Brexitland will be such a wonderful place surely they would be willing to proudly announce the superb future.

Comforting that the BoE says the banks could survive a massive drop in Sterling, double unemployment, GDP dropping by 4.7% and houses losing a third of their value, sounds like paradise if that happened.

Please point out where I have not given a valid argument, surely I will make an error at some point and even lose an argument , on the other hand maybe not.
You see if you don't lie you can't be found out, maybe one could make an honest error but then acknowledge that error.

All the Brexit lies will unravel one by one, sadly a lot of people will pay a hefty price for those lies.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I'll repeat the EU commissioners are selected by the 28 individual countries, not by Germany , not by France, they only select one each and the Commissioners from all different parties across the EU. The cabinet ministers are selected by the PM , not because they are good at that particular job, they are there to particularly help the PM in her personal power strategy, unlike in the EU where the Commissioners are answerable to the EU parliament , all controlled by one person, cabinet ministers all of them can only be fired by one person , the PM - no votes from the public not answerable to anyone other than her.

Do you realise how stupid it sounds when you say that 28 commissioners decide EU policy and make the laws with no recourse to anyone. You know it, anyone with any intelligence knows it it Josef Goveballs propaganda machine unfortunately Brexiters don't have the ability to distinguish truth from fantasy

You've ignored all the points yet again , you want to believe lies like all Brexiters do but as you know the whole Brexit idea is based on lies, can a Brexiter actually tell the truth.

Those risk assessments should be made available, hope the Brexiters haven't tried to conceal things from the general public, I mean why should they, after all Brexitland will be such a wonderful place surely they would be willing to proudly announce the superb future.

Comforting that the BoE says the banks could survive a massive drop in Sterling, double unemployment, GDP dropping by 4.7% and houses losing a third of their value, sounds like paradise if that happened.

Please point out where I have not given a valid argument, surely I will make an error at some point and even lose an argument , on the other hand maybe not.
You see if you don't lie you can't be found out, maybe one could make an honest error but then acknowledge that error.

All the Brexit lies will unravel one by one, sadly a lot of people will pay a hefty price for those lies.
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Thank you Paul. I have really enjoyed reading your posts, Paul, and I agree with much of what you say.

You may have also noticed, Paul, how much I like to keep saying your name. I find it adds a slightly patronising tone to my comments.

Do you agree Paul? Paul?
 
Adebesi said:
Thank you Paul. I have really enjoyed reading your posts, Paul, and I agree with much of what you say.

You may have also noticed, Paul, how much I like to keep saying your name. I find it adds a slightly patronising tone to my comments.

Do you agree Paul? Paul?
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:lol: I'm glad i'm not the only one this grates.
 
Adebesi said:
Thank you Paul. I have really enjoyed reading your posts, Paul, and I agree with much of what you say.

You may have also noticed, Paul, how much I like to keep saying your name. I find it adds a slightly patronising tone to my comments.

Do you agree Paul? Paul?
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:lol::lol:
 
Abizzz said:
Oh what irony:lol:. Respect to @Paul the Wolf and all the others, you have more patients than I could dream of having.
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Adebesi said:
Thank you Paul. I have really enjoyed reading your posts, Paul, and I agree with much of what you say.

You may have also noticed, Paul, how much I like to keep saying your name. I find it adds a slightly patronising tone to my comments.

Do you agree Paul? Paul?
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Massive Spanner said:
:lol: I'm glad i'm not the only one this grates.
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:lol: Fortunately I do have the patience of a saint, don't get wound up and never give up an argument because being the arrogant sod that I am I know I'm always right;)


Kentonio said:
He's stopped calling everyone son at least.
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If he called me son , he'd have to be ancient.
 
Nah, I'm still going with 23 year old Russian misinformation bot posting from his mothers basement in Macedonia. On the weekend he moonlights sexting as Busty Olga, 19, looking for western gentleman to marry.
 
Parliament currently at war with the cabinet over the report.
Just release it you twats.
 
Adisa said:
Parliament currently at war with the cabinet over the report.
Just release it you twats.
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I really hope they dobt let Davis get away with it, the useless git.

David Lammy has a good series of tweets on the issue.
 
I think he'd be extraordinarily lucky to get away with it, the people attacking him over this come from all sides of the commons, including both Leave and Remain supporters. Parliament get really pissed when people try to subvert their authority.

Government is thinking about a new motion to excuse their actions. I don't think they have a chance in hell personally, but we'll see.
 
That David Davis didn't even show up days a lot - he isn't afraid of releasing the reports, he just doesn't want to be there for the grilling from the select committe.

Why anyone would think he us a suitable negotiator for the most complex deal in the modern history of the UK is beyond me. The guys a total fraud.
 
Apparently the comprehensive, excruciatingly detailed impact reports aren't enough to fill 2 ring binders :rolleyes: and that counts as suitable preparation does it?

Call the whole thing off now its beyond a joke.
 
@C3Pique Which Brexiteer would you put in charge of it? Gove has his admirers but his time in education casts doubt on his ability to deal with these kinds of highly sensitive issues. Plus it was never going to happen given his history with May.

I actually thought Davis was probably the best person for the job, on the basis that it had to be a Brexiteer and most of them are whackjobs. I disagree with Davis on a lot of things, our relationship with Europe among them, but he does come across as a thoughtful and reasonable person at least. Or at least I thought he did at the time, his latest job has shown him in a new light.

If you want to think about how on earth someone managed to get the job they currently have the person to think about is surely Johnson. Has there ever been a man less cut out for a job requiring high levels of diplomacy?

The depressing thing is no matter how bad things get, no matter what foreign politicians or economists or business-people or whoever says, I see less and less chance of us changing course. It feels like every time there is evidence that we are making a huge mistake the pro-Leave 52% double down on the "its all just project fear" logic and become even more determined to leave. Like someone who is absolutely determined to open a door for no other reason than that the door is locked.
 
C3Pique said:
Apparently the comprehensive, excruciatingly detailed impact reports aren't enough to fill 2 ring binders :rolleyes: and that counts as suitable preparation does it?

Call the whole thing off now its beyond a joke.
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Yes i saw that too. Strong and stable.
 
Adebesi said:
I actually thought Davis was probably the best person for the job, on the basis that it had to be a Brexiteer and most of them are whackjobs. I disagree with Davis on a lot of things, our relationship with Europe among them, but he does come across as a thoughtful and reasonable person at least. Or at least I thought he did at the time, his latest job has shown him in a new light.
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He always gave off the air of someone more down to earth and less prone to political bullshitting than most of them. Apparently he's also however extremely arrogant and also very, very lazy according to people who have worked with him.

So yeah, probably the best we could have hoped for out of that bunch.
 
Kentonio said:
He always gave off the air of someone more down to earth and less prone to political bullshitting than most of them. Apparently he's also however extremely arrogant and also very, very lazy according to people who have worked with him.

So yeah, probably the best we could have hoped for out of that bunch.
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That sounds about right. I "liked" him, in as much as I like any Tory, when my only real exposure to him was seeing him on things like QT, where he is good at actually answering questions head on, and explaining positions to people who dont hold them themselves in such a way that they sound reasonable.

I cant really comment on his laziness but I have heard about his arrogance. Either way I personally dont think anyone would be able to do the job he has, I think it is at its heart an impossible task, so perhaps he is being clever by not devoting too much time to it. What's the point in spending hours toiling on something that wont work anyway?

Though of course given he actually pushed for Brexit presumably he isnt thinking about it in those terms.
 
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