Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Rightnr]

And I am absolutely sure that I lack some of the knowledge that you so obviously have - but that's made up by the fact that I'm actually a really nice guy and not a stereotypical know-it-all-because-I'm-German, German.

Ah, so it's fine to be clueless and still claim you know better because you are a nice guy, while at the same time implying Germans are 'not nice' and using personal insults.

I have personally been called out as German by someone who didn't like me pointing out their utter incompetence (hint: I'm not). This post reminds of that instance.

 

[fcbforever]

So now, in true EU style, you want to change the UK's democratic voting and referendum sytems as well ? Which they've used for about 400 years ?

You really prefer the UK uses the the German system ? One that lets a party like the AfD take 13% of parliamentary seats ?

Look....The British know that you Germans have one of the world's best economies, if not THE best ; they know that you Germans make the world's best cars ; they know that Germany makes the world's best beer ; they know that Germany makes the world's best machine tools ; they know that Germany's designer clothes are just as fashionable and better quality than French and Italian clothing ; they know that Germany has most of the best architects and construction companies in the world ; some will even agree with the phrase ' There's only three rules of football - There's one ball, 22 players and Germany always win ' ; some of us would even go so far as to agree that Germany has the best looking, most elegant women over 45, but I have to say that because Frau FBR will no doubt read this later...

On the other hand, the British don't really feel the need for your own personal advice about what is best for the British, however much you rant about ' a country as a whole can be so dumb '....

Just stick to your own problems - like the AfD and the million or so immigrants that Frau Fatarse let into the EU without the approriate vetting and security checks and which the EU is now trying to disperse around the EU with threats of members' expulsion if they don't take the number off your hands that the EU has decided they must take.

And I am absolutely sure that I lack some of the knowledge that you so obviously have - but that's made up by the fact that I'm actually a really nice guy and not a stereotypical know-it-all-because-I'm-German, German.

Since I'm on my phone with shitty internet right now (thanks DB) I just wanna ask one think: you complain about the AfD but seem to be supportive of the Tories, which are essentially the British AfD these days? If the U.K. Was Germany, you Chancellor would be Petry, your Foreign Secretary Alice Weidel and Gauland would be lurking in the background to take over ...

Regardless, yes, I do prefer a parliamentary system which at least tried to mirror the vote of the people.
And yes; direct democracy as excerzised in Britian is dumb as feck. It's tyranny of the majority at its worst. This has got nothing to do with the EU, that's just my opinion as a political scientist.

 

[Full bodied red]

Ah, so it's fine to be clueless and still claim you know better because you are a nice guy, while at the same time implying Germans are 'not nice' and using personal insults.

I have personally been called out as German by someone who didn't like me pointing out their utter incompetence (hint: I'm not). This post reminds of that instance.

And I'm quite happy to provide you with knowledge you quite clearly lack.

Ah, so it's fine to be clueless

You mentioned personal insults ?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So now, in true EU style, you want to change the UK's democratic voting and referendum sytems as well ? Which they've used for about 400 years ?

You really prefer the UK uses the the German system ? One that lets a party like the AfD take 13% of parliamentary seats ?

Look....The British know that you Germans have one of the world's best economies, if not THE best ; they know that you Germans make the world's best cars ; they know that Germany makes the world's best beer ; they know that Germany makes the world's best machine tools ; they know that Germany's designer clothes are just as fashionable and better quality than French and Italian clothing ; they know that Germany has most of the best architects and construction companies in the world ; some will even agree with the phrase ' There's only three rules of football - There's one ball, 22 players and Germany always win ' ; some of us would even go so far as to agree that Germany has the best looking, most elegant women over 45, but I have to say that because Frau FBR will no doubt read this later...

On the other hand, the British don't really feel the need for your own personal advice about what is best for the British, however much you rant about ' a country as a whole can be so dumb '....

Just stick to your own problems - like the AfD and the million or so immigrants that Frau Fatarse let into the EU without the approriate vetting and security checks and which the EU is now trying to disperse around the EU with threats of members' expulsion if they don't take the number off your hands that the EU has decided they must take.

And I am absolutely sure that I lack some of the knowledge that you so obviously have - but that's made up by the fact that I'm actually a really nice guy and not a stereotypical know-it-all-because-I'm-German, German.

Why are you having go at Germans, has your wife given you a hard time

 

[JPRouve]

So now, in true EU style, you want to change the UK's democratic voting and referendum sytems as well ? Which they've used for about 400 years ?

You really prefer the UK uses the the German system ? One that lets a party like the AfD take 13% of parliamentary seats ?

Look....The British know that you Germans have one of the world's best economies, if not THE best ; they know that you Germans make the world's best cars ; they know that Germany makes the world's best beer ; they know that Germany makes the world's best machine tools ; they know that Germany's designer clothes are just as fashionable and better quality than French and Italian clothing ; they know that Germany has most of the best architects and construction companies in the world ; some will even agree with the phrase ' There's only three rules of football - There's one ball, 22 players and Germany always win ' ; some of us would even go so far as to agree that Germany has the best looking, most elegant women over 45, but I have to say that because Frau FBR will no doubt read this later...

On the other hand, the British don't really feel the need for your own personal advice about what is best for the British, however much you rant about ' a country as a whole can be so dumb '....

Just stick to your own problems - like the AfD and the million or so immigrants that Frau Fatarse let into the EU without the approriate vetting and security checks and which the EU is now trying to disperse around the EU with threats of members' expulsion if they don't take the number off your hands that the EU has decided they must take.

And I am absolutely sure that I lack some of the knowledge that you so obviously have - but that's made up by the fact that I'm actually a really nice guy and not a stereotypical know-it-all-because-I'm-German, German.

Non bidding referendums have been introduced in 1975 by the Referendum Act 1975, referendums in the UK don't have a 400 years old history but a 42 years old one.

 

[fcbforever]

Non bidding referendums have been introduced in 1975 by the Referendum Act 1975, referendums in the UK don't have a 400 years old history but a 42 years old one.

Didn't you know the British people voted on the results of the Vienna conference?

 

[Rightnr]

And I'm quite happy to provide you with knowledge you quite clearly lack.

Ah, so it's fine to be clueless

You mentioned personal insults ?

Clueless is not really an insult unless you are insecure about your knowledge. That is addressing how informed you are on the subject. I am happy to say I'm clueless on a lot of subjects, especially huge ones like EU membership because it is such a compex issue and so few people understand it.

Attacking someone's character as nice or not is a bit different which is what I pulled you on. As I've said multiple times, demonising the other side is not what wins you arguments and this is what won the referendum hence why I was so agaisnt Brexit. It was an emotional rather than a rational decision.

 

[4bars]

You know, I actually agree with you.

On the other hand, if that's what the students want and the EU is trying so hard to achieve, then maybe the students should just take a Gap Year and go work as as a waiter or whatever in another EU country instead of letting the Tax Payers pick up the bill for a year's pseudo learning. It would be interesting to ask the EU whether they would pay for EU students to spend a year travelling around the world outside of the EU to achieve their personal growth and get to know better ' historical enemies ' You know - the British students could spend a year in USA or Japan ; the French students could spend a year in Vietnam or the Maghreb ; the Spanish students could spend a year in South America ; the German students ?? You tell me, because I don't recall Germany ever having historical enemies before the 20th century, in which case ERASMUS suits just fine and is maybe why you see it that way.

So....Do you think the EU should and would encourage this ? And fund this ?

I don't think so - but why not if that is the object of ERASMUS ?

As for your ' Not German, not English, not Greek ', etc....

Like I said before - the EU would love everyone to just be homogenous, EU citizens. But that is just never going to happen. Hell, in the UK, most of the Scots don't even want to be British citizens ; in Spain the Catalans don't want to be Spanish ; in Belgium most of the Walloons don't want to be Belgian. Maybe some of the Germans are more open to giving up their German identity and nationality in favour of single-one-for-everyone EU nationality, but they're in a very small minority if they are. Frau FBR most certainly wouldn't.

Frankly, EU were paying 100 EUR a month for me. Yes, definetely I think is worth it. As well we had other programs interSpain and programs worldwide. They were not ERASMUS but the concept was the same (and better funded than ERASMUS). It makes sense that is EU, because of proximity and to strengthen the union through the people.

When I am talking about Not German, not English, not Greek ', etc....I am not saying to abandon the identity, FFS, I am a hardcore catalan independentist and because of identity, not for economic reasons. what I mean for that is that since 20 years ago, we barely knew our neighbours and we looked at them in a suspicious way. When I was in Erasmus I was nice to spanish, because I am nice, but in politics I was a complete dick. And I learn a lot about spanish, as I did with other nationalities. Is not about losing the identity. Is about to respect and love other identities and be capable to work with them.

I have NO DOUBT, that Erasmus had done the best for the integration in the EU than anyother one. And that will be seen in the future. And you can see that with which is the age group that voted the most in % against Brexit. The next generations grew with more love for the EU, but unfortunately, they had to go against a group of age that they will die in 5-10 years and they only remember a shadow of a British Empire that was subjugating half of the world and the other half thought you were jerks

 

[Full bodied red]

Why are you having go at Germans, has your wife given you a hard time

She's always giving me hard time....Today no more than usual....

And no, not specifically having a go at Germans ....Just at what I perceive to be constant put-downs of the UK by FCB....You and I probably agree that too much in the UK is broken, and is why we'd never go back. But it wasn't broken by the Referendum result - it's been teetering for a couple of generations, fur coat and no knickers, and FCB is, in my opinion, barking up the wrong tree to keep blaming the UK's present and future problems on BREXIT and, now, tonight, on the UK voting system. That's all....

Non bidding referendums have been introduced in 1975 by the Referendum Act 1975, referendums in the UK don't have a 400 years old history but a 42 years old one.

Apologies...just bad wording - voting system in use for 400 years

Since I'm on my phone with shitty internet right now (thanks DB) I just wanna ask one think: you complain about the AfD but seem to be supportive of the Tories, which are essentially the British AfD these days? If the U.K. Was Germany, you Chancellor would be Petry, your Foreign Secretary Alice Weidel and Gauland would be lurking in the background to take over ...

Regardless, yes, I do prefer a parliamentary system which at least tried to mirror the vote of the people.
And yes; direct democracy as excerzised in Britian is dumb as feck. It's tyranny of the majority at its worst. This has got nothing to do with the EU, that's just my opinion as a political scientist.

OK...Let's kiss and make up...Then I can answer your questions....

The Tories ( and Labour ) have racists amongst their ranks - no doubt - but are not a one-objective-in-disguise party as are the AfD and the FN here.

Don't forget the majority of Tory MPs and Ministers at the time of the referendum were in favour of staying in the EU - including maintaining FoM and the ECJ, which they supported as part of the full EU package. I'm not, and never have been, and probably never would be a Tory voter, but I'll defend the current Tory party and ministers if they get called xenophobes or racists because they were instructed by the majority of those who voted that they wanted out of the EU

Anyway, there was a democratic vote - REMAIN or LEAVE the EU....Blame Cameron if you want, but there were no other options on the ballet paper - no third or fourth such as ' Stay if the EU agrees to change whatever ' or ' Leave only if the EU will not agree to change whatever '.....

As we've all said, so often, there were lies and counter-lies from both sides during the debate and some people were hoodwinked into voting LEAVE, and others scared shitless into voting REMAIN.

But what is often forgotten, although there were millions in the UK who are fervently pro-EU, like most of the posters on here, who could see through the lies of the LEAVE campaign, there were just as many millions ( who knows, perhaps a million or so more and hence the eventual result ) who don't like what the EU is, what it imposes on its members, and where it's heading, ( like just a couple of us on here ) and so voted LEAVE irrespective of the lies and scaremongering from both sides.

If you like democracy, then it's natural to accept that in a two option, binary vote, the majority are the winners.

However, don't forget that the Referendum was a no less democratic vote than the UK has had for years ( well, JP, since the Referendum a few years ago on changing the voting system in the UK to a sort of Proportional Representation - and was rejected ) and is in line with the UK's 'First Past the Post ' electoral system for Parliamentary elections.

You may continue to believe that ' direct democracy as excerzised in Britian is dumb as feck. It's tyranny of the majority at its worst ' but when offered the chance to change that system, the majority in UK said No Thanks.

There you are, really....It's a different concept than most other countries voting systems, but the UK has it and shouldn't really be called out for it just because it's different.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Since I'm on my phone with shitty internet right now (thanks DB) I just wanna ask one think: you complain about the AfD but seem to be supportive of the Tories, which are essentially the British AfD these days? If the U.K. Was Germany, you Chancellor would be Petry, your Foreign Secretary Alice Weidel and Gauland would be lurking in the background to take over ...

Regardless, yes, I do prefer a parliamentary system which at least tried to mirror the vote of the people.
And yes; direct democracy as excerzised in Britian is dumb as feck. It's tyranny of the majority at its worst. This has got nothing to do with the EU, that's just my opinion as a political scientist.

As a political scientist, you would know that Germans didn't invent their system of voting it was forced on them by the victorious powers because of the terrible record and lack of trust in the way and for whom Germans voted in the past and the problems that caused. IE the German system was designed by outsiders deliberately to not exactly reflect the way Germans voted.

If you think there is a perfect system then you are mistaken. Reflecting a vote is important but electing a government which can govern by a method people understand and respect and are in favour of is more important. I don't believe in referenda but once you have had one I think the result should be honored whether or not I personally think that vote is correct.

There are bigger issues even than being inside or outside the EU and remaining governable is one of them.

 

[Kentonio]

So now, in true EU style, you want to change the UK's democratic voting and referendum sytems as well ? Which they've used for about 400 years ?

You really prefer the UK uses the the German system ? One that lets a party like the AfD take 13% of parliamentary seats ?

Look....The British know that you Germans have one of the world's best economies, if not THE best ; they know that you Germans make the world's best cars ; they know that Germany makes the world's best beer ; they know that Germany makes the world's best machine tools ; they know that Germany's designer clothes are just as fashionable and better quality than French and Italian clothing ; they know that Germany has most of the best architects and construction companies in the world ; some will even agree with the phrase ' There's only three rules of football - There's one ball, 22 players and Germany always win ' ; some of us would even go so far as to agree that Germany has the best looking, most elegant women over 45, but I have to say that because Frau FBR will no doubt read this later...

On the other hand, the British don't really feel the need for your own personal advice about what is best for the British, however much you rant about ' a country as a whole can be so dumb '....

Just stick to your own problems - like the AfD and the million or so immigrants that Frau Fatarse let into the EU without the approriate vetting and security checks and which the EU is now trying to disperse around the EU with threats of members' expulsion if they don't take the number off your hands that the EU has decided they must take.

And I am absolutely sure that I lack some of the knowledge that you so obviously have - but that's made up by the fact that I'm actually a really nice guy and not a stereotypical know-it-all-because-I'm-German, German.

That's the British attitude all over though isn't it (and American in fairness). We see other countries doing things better and more efficiently, and instead of looking for how we could improve, we fall back on an attitude of 'well that's not how we do things' as if there's an implicit historical superiority.

It's the same with football, Germany looked at a failing system and rebuild it from the grassroots upwards. We continue to do the same stupid crap over and over and just complain when astonishingly nothing ever changes.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

She's always giving me hard time....Today no more than usual....

And no, not specifically having a go at Germans ....Just at what I perceive to be constant put-downs of the UK by FCB....You and I probably agree that too much in the UK is broken, and is why we'd never go back. But it wasn't broken by the Referendum result - it's been teetering for a couple of generations, fur coat and no knickers, and FCB is, in my opinion, barking up the wrong tree to keep blaming the UK's present and future problems on BREXIT and, now, tonight, on the UK voting system. That's all....

But you did have a rant about Germans, whether one agrees with a person or not you can't lump everyone together, that is a particularly English trait

Anyway, as for blaming the past and present problems on Brexit, the Leavers and in particular the UK government have had a convenient scapegoat with the EU to blame their failures. This is one of the problems I have with the whole thing - now that they have committed the dreaded deed though, in a few years they will have to face up to the fact that the problems are the cause of successive incompetent governments, both Labour and Tory.
And not one single argument given thus far by a Brexiter holds any water at all to me why things will improve in the UK after it leaves the EU, quite the reverse.

As for the system of government/parliament etc - every country has a different system as does the EU, who is to say which is the best but for Leavers to claim the UK system is more democratic than the EU is laughable.

 

[The Outsider]

As for the system of government/parliament etc - every country has a different system as does the EU, who is to say which is the best but for Leavers to claim the UK system is more democratic than the EU is laughable.

The difference is though if we don't like what the government does we can go to London and protest, if the EU does something we don't like it is much harder to protest in person or get them to change as 27 other nations have to agree first.

 

[Stanley Road]

And then things got better. It's called progress

Call it what you like, all i said was it wasnt a big deal.

 

[africanspur]

So now, in true EU style, you want to change the UK's democratic voting and referendum sytems as well ? Which they've used for about 400 years ?

You really prefer the UK uses the the German system ? One that lets a party like the AfD take 13% of parliamentary seats ?

Look....The British know that you Germans have one of the world's best economies, if not THE best ; they know that you Germans make the world's best cars ; they know that Germany makes the world's best beer ; they know that Germany makes the world's best machine tools ; they know that Germany's designer clothes are just as fashionable and better quality than French and Italian clothing ; they know that Germany has most of the best architects and construction companies in the world ; some will even agree with the phrase ' There's only three rules of football - There's one ball, 22 players and Germany always win ' ; some of us would even go so far as to agree that Germany has the best looking, most elegant women over 45, but I have to say that because Frau FBR will no doubt read this later...

On the other hand, the British don't really feel the need for your own personal advice about what is best for the British, however much you rant about ' a country as a whole can be so dumb '....

Just stick to your own problems - like the AfD and the million or so immigrants that Frau Fatarse let into the EU without the approriate vetting and security checks and which the EU is now trying to disperse around the EU with threats of members' expulsion if they don't take the number off your hands that the EU has decided they must take.

And I am absolutely sure that I lack some of the knowledge that you so obviously have - but that's made up by the fact that I'm actually a really nice guy and not a stereotypical know-it-all-because-I'm-German, German.

I have never never ever understood this attitude. It is, with all due respect, completely nonsensical to me.

Do I prefer the UK uses a system where 13% of voters are represented by 13% of MPs? Hmm yeah I kind of do. Its called democracy.

I fecking hate UKIP and am still pissed that we're leaving the EU. And yet I thought it was an abject failure of our political system that UKIP scored 13% of the national vote share. One in every 8 voters voted for UKIP. And yet they were represented by 1 MP out of 650. That is abysmal and I don't see how that is a good political system in the slightest. Or, for that matter, democratic.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The difference is though if we don't like what the government does we can go to London and protest, if the EU does something we don't like it is much harder to protest in person or get them to change as 27 other nations have to agree first.

It's no harder than someone living up north to come down to London than someone from London popping over to Brussels.

Secondly, the Uk has MEPs voted in by the UK electorate who are supposed to be representing the people, the few that turn up use that time to have a rant at the EU. The Uk have as least much say as anyone other than Germany, but purely because Germany has a bigger population. You may as well say things in the UK are done to favour the South-East and the North is neglected, how is leaving the EU going to change that.

Thirdly, which brings me to the point of the Uk government using the EU as a scapegoat. How much does the EU govern the UK. What are these terrible things that affects Brits lives so much, we're the best part of 2 years into this debate and still waiting to find out what it is.

 

[fcbforever]

As a political scientist, you would know that Germans didn't invent their system of voting it was forced on them by the victorious powers because of the terrible record and lack of trust in the way and for whom Germans voted in the past and the problems that caused. IE the German system was designed by outsiders deliberately to not exactly reflect the way Germans voted.

If you think there is a perfect system then you are mistaken. Reflecting a vote is important but electing a government which can govern by a method people understand and respect and are in favour of is more important. I don't believe in referenda but once you have had one I think the result should be honored whether or not I personally think that vote is correct.

There are bigger issues even than being inside or outside the EU and remaining governable is one of them.

As a political scientist, I tell you this is bullshit even Wikipedia would have told you is wrong within the first two paragraphs of the relevant article. How embarrassing .... how is this stupid myth so prevelant in the anglo-saxon world? Embarrassing. But Ye, me, as a political scientist, I should know you have no clue

The election system of 1949 is just a mere continuation of the system that existed before 1933.

 

[Stanley Road]

It's no harder than someone living up north to come down to London than someone from London popping over to Brussels.

Secondly, the Uk has MEPs voted in by the UK electorate who are supposed to be representing the people, the few that turn up use that time to have a rant at the EU. The Uk have as least much say as anyone other than Germany, but purely because Germany has a bigger population. You may as well say things in the UK are done to favour the South-East and the North is neglected, how is leaving the EU going to change that.

Thirdly, which brings me to the point of the Uk government using the EU as a scapegoat. How much does the EU govern the UK. What are these terrible things that affects Brits lives so much, we're the best part of 2 years into this debate and still waiting to find out what it is.

The last paragraph is quite pointless discussing as it can be quite subjective. What you may like about being in the eu i might not and vice versa. You could give me some laws that directly affect me and i will tell you if i agree with them or not. From a personal point of view and a simplified view, i look at the whole of europe and see a shithole if inequality. That alone would be enuff for anyone like me.

 

[I Believe]

Nobody gives flying feck about "Russels

I think you will find they do, even if their limited knowledge means they have to google it?

It will be harder for their students to go abroad

Why is that exactly?

This is exactly what people mean when they tell you you live in the past

What you mean... because I don't have to google everything?

The U.K. isnt an Empire anymore

My goodness you are up to date aren't you!

The only people whom seem to go on about an 'Empire' are those who never had one, what is the attraction?
Even the word 'Empire' in any meaning full connotation, died out years ago, this continual harking back to the past is nothing to do with brexiteers! I can almost guarantee that very few if any who voted ''leave' believed or intended Britain would seek to restore its Empire, we had enough trouble with it the first time around.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The last paragraph is quite pointless discussing as it can be quite subjective. What you may like about being in the eu i might not and vice versa. You could give me some laws that directly affect me and i will tell you if i agree with them or not. From a personal point of view and a simplified view, i look at the whole of europe and see a shithole if inequality. That alone would be enuff for anyone like me.

Because no-one can quote anything. If you look at the whole of the UK you could say exactly the same thing, as I did in the second paragraph. Do the people of Hartlepool for example feel as equally treated as those living in London. Unless you want to live in a communist state where everyone is supposedly equal (although some people are more equal than others) - your favourite, race to the bottom, when everyone is equal because they have nothing.

 

[Stanley Road]

Because no-one can quote anything. If you look at the whole of the UK you could say exactly the same thing, as I did in the second paragraph. Do the people of Hartlepool for example feel as equally treated as those living in London. Unless you want to live in a communist state where everyone is supposedly equal (although some people are more equal than others) - your favourite, race to the bottom, when everyone is equal because they have nothing.

I do look at the uk in the same light and i dont see the benefit of paying club membership.

 

[fcbforever]

I think you will find they do, even if their limited knowledge means they have to google it?



Why is that exactly?



What you mean... because I don't have to google everything?



My goodness you are up to date aren't you!

The only people whom seem to go on about an 'Empire' are those who never had one, what is the attraction?
Even the word 'Empire' in any meaning full connotation, died out years ago, this continual harking back to the past is nothing to do with brexiteers! I can almost guarantee that very few if any who voted ''leave' believed or intended Britain would seek to restore its Empire, we had enough trouble with it the first time around.

If you had invested 2 seconds into the past 2 pages of this thread, you would know why it would be harder. You haven't, of course, because you are more interested in throwing around unwarranted sarcasm and catchphrases. Here, to make it easier for you:

The whole thinking behind ERASMUS is basically that it should be ideally a zero sum equation. Everyone get's just as much out of it as he "pays" into it. Between Germany and Britain, for example: yes, GB has to pay (quite indirectly) for the laughable tuition fees English Universities are going for, but the Universities also spare money because students go abroad and enjoy living of other taxpayers money while getting further education. I would say it is the least controversial of all EU projects, ever

I just remembered something else by the way: Britain would be thrown out of the ECTS program associated with ERASMUS, so no automatical recognition of degrees and and transferable archievements between country.

Basically, if today you study abroad, every course you did so far is scored with ECTS points, and the other university is also using ECTS points. Bachelors require 180 ECTS; master degress 120. So there's no long battles about which stuff the other university will actually recognize as being done, they will just do it. You are saving huge amounts of studytime because of that. Bye bye to that as well GB!
Last edited: Yesterday at 18:10

You would also, if you hadn't deliberately misqouted me, known that I didn't say nobody gives a flying feck about allof Russels University, but about the group as a whole. Just like, but I am repeating myself, you neither give a shit about our equivalent nor would know how it's called. For once reply to what you should reply to, not what you WANT to reply to:

I do. That's why I wouldn't tell you, in case Germany would be in UK's place, that we don't care about losing ECTS and Eramus because "Ah, the Exzellenzuniversitäten don't need this!".

Because sure as hell your response wouldn't be "yes you are right, everyone wants to go to Konstanz regardless if it would be easier to just go to Madrid."

The Exzellenzuniversitäten are, by design, a more exclusive club than your Russells by the way.

You are doing this deliberately, aren't you? You do understand what's written, but you deliberately ignore half of it. Like this stupid shit about the Empire. I KNOW BREXITEER DONT WANT THE EMPIRE BACK; EVERYONE DOES. That's not the fecking point. The fecking point is, like you bringing up "Russells", you seem to think something is relevant or of high reputation just because it's British.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I do look at the uk in the same light and i dont see the benefit of paying club membership.

So being in or out of the EU doesn't change a thing, apart from paying the fee and if by leaving, the UK lose more than the fee so monetary wise they are worse off there seems little point.

 

[JPRouve]

So being in or out of the EU doesn't change a thing, apart from paying the fee and if by leaving, the UK lose more than the fee so monetary wise they are worse off there seems little point.

@Stanley Road is philosophically against the idea of the Union. He isn't looking for a point for brexit and as far as I can remember he hasn't tried to invent one either.

 

[I Believe]

you would know why it would be harder.

I have looked through a number of posts, but you have not made it clear why it will be harder for UK students to study in the EU countries, I can't help it if you cannot explain what you mean?

I'm not sure why you keep referring to the Erasmus project, which incidentally I agree was the least controversial of many EU projects and from other posts on here seemed to have been enjoyed by those who did participate?

Britain never got the 'zero sum' result from Erasmus that you refer to mainly because very few British students (compared to the provision made under Erasmus) actually took it up! Therefore I cannot see our being 'thrown out' (as you put it) of the project making that much difference to British students since their overall collective interest in the project is traditionally so low, what I can see is that the Erasmus project will be missing the UK's financial contributions if we are barred from participation in the project after Brexit!

As far as the points system (ECTS) or equivalency is concerned the same thing applies, if our students are not availing themselves of what's on offer with the EU countries, or are prevented from doing so, it hardly makes any difference, except perhaps to the odd specialist degree course?

If all other EU/UK Brexit arrangements are agreed i.e. on the basis 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' then any students who wished to avail themselves of the Erasmus type provision will most likely be able to do so as long as Britain contributes to cover such costs.

that I didn't say nobody gives a flying feck about allof Russels

Yes you did, see your post; report #18194; 6.10.17 at 19.14

seem to think something is relevant or of high reputation just because it's British.

The Russell Group does have a high reputation, whether its simply because its British is debateable, but it is...so!

 

[fcbforever]

I have looked through a number of posts, but you have not made it clear why it will be harder for UK students to study in the EU countries, I can't help it if you cannot explain what you mean?

I'm not sure why you keep referring to the Erasmus project, which incidentally I agree was the least controversial of many EU projects and from other posts on here seemed to have been enjoyed by those who did participate?

Britain never got the 'zero sum' result from Erasmus that you refer to mainly because very few British students (compared to the provision made under Erasmus) actually took it up! Therefore I can't not see our being 'thrown out' (as you put it) of the project making that much difference to British students since their overall collective interest in the project is traditionally so low, what I can see is that the Erasmus project will be missing the UK's financial contributions if we are barred from participation in the project after Brexit!

As far as the points system (ECTS) or equivalency is concerned the same thing applies, if our students are not availing themselves of what's on offer with the EU countries, or are prevented from doing so, it hardly makes any difference, except perhaps to the odd specialist degree course?

If all other EU/UK Brexit arrangements are agreed i.e. on the basis 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' then any students who wished to avail themselves of the Erasmus type provision will most likely be able to do so as long as Britain contributes to cover such costs.



Yes you did, see your post; report #18194; 6.10.17 at 19.14



The Russell Group does have a high reputation, whether its simply because its British is debateable, but it is...so!

The ECTS system is part of Erasmus, as I have indeed explained. If you don't care about British students being at an disadvantage in comparison towards European students, you do you. If you also think British universities don't need to attract foreign talent, okay. If you think losing this won't make it harder to go abroad (it will, obviously), well. I won't change that. You seem to be fine with it.

Is your whole point really "well we didn't make use of it anyway, so feck those who tried"? I guess they should be flipping burgers at McDonalds right?

And no I did not. Yet again you deliberately misquote. People care about Oxford or Cambridge. They are part of Russell's. The rest of it? Do you really think the University of Exeter has a higher reputation than the university of Barcelona just because it is, by chance, in some abstract group of universities nobody ever heard of that also included Cambridge and Oxford? Sorry to disappoint you. It's hardly Ivy League (which itself is only prestigious because all of their universities are in their own).

 

[NinjaFletch]

The Russell Group does have a high reputation, whether its simply because its British is debateable, but it is...so!

The Russell Groups reputation is largely a result of marketing and a media that doesn't understand the sector.

The group itself is irrelevant. It's the reputations of the Universities themselves that matters.

Also your confidence for the university sector is bizarre. It is shared by nobody actually working within it. Unless the government dramatically changes its attitude towards universities in general then Brexit is going to be (and is already) really, really bad news for Higher Education in this country.

 

[JPRouve]

For what it's worth, if I'm not mistaken the main problem is not regarding degrees but about research and the fact that British Universities will most likely lose a certain amount of researchers. I could be wrong though.

 

[Stanley Road]

So being in or out of the EU doesn't change a thing, apart from paying the fee and if by leaving, the UK lose more than the fee so monetary wise they are worse off there seems little point.

When i go to the supermarket i dont have to buy every item in the shop just to get the 10 items i may need.

 

[fcbforever]

The Russell Groups reputation is largely a result of marketing and a media that doesn't understand the sector.

The group itself is irrelevant. It's the reputations of the Universities themselves that matters.

Also your confidence for the university sector is bizarre. It is shared by nobody actually working within it. Unless the government dramatically changes its attitude towards universities in general then Brexit is going to be (and is already) really, really bad news for Higher Education in this country.

^this

It really is the absolute same thing with our "excellence universities". Heavily marketed in Germany, everyone here thinks it's something special. The second you leave the country nobody gives a shit. Koblenz is a "excellence university". Ever heard of it? I doubt it. Göttingen isn't part of that group. The university of Oppenheimer, Heisenberg, Gauß, of multiple nobel price winners in the last 30 years. Is it less prestigious than Koblenz? Heidelberg is a member. But does it need to be to be prestigious? Nope.

 

[I Believe]

Is your whole point really "well we didn't make use of it anyway, so feck those who tried"?[/QUOTE]

And no I did not.[/QUOTE]

You have this habit of reading what people say then changing the meaning to suit yourself, are you sure you are not related to Donald Trump and his 'fake news'.

Erasmus is one of the projects I personally think more British students should have availed themselves of, based on my own experience of working (not studying) in Europe for a while, I saw a lot and learned a lot, and it would be beneficial, perhaps it should have been compulsory? However the facts are that British students in their collective as well as individual wisdom did not, so on that basis it won't be as damaging if British students overall are not able to access the project, post Brexit.

I did also mention that based on the other posts on here that referred to the Erasmus project, those who had used the Erasmus project seemed to have enjoyed it and valued the experience, although it is not altogether clear, other than the participation itself, whether it did help them further their careers... my comments were nothing to do with 'so feck those who tried'. If we are banned from Erasmus after Breixt, I am reasonably sure that the kind of British student who would value the Erasmus experience, will be able to find a way to gain that experience, with or with out Erasmus.

This is another thing that needs to be clarified, life does go on and will go one outside the EU, including education that involves Europe. The EU is a political entity, it is not 'Europe' per-se!
Yes you did

your first sentence, #report 18551 6th Oct 2017 19.14... you backtrack a little in your fourth sentence, but you did start with that sentiment.. come on own up... or at least have the gumption to go back and edit it!!

 

[Mozza]

Call it what you like, all i said was it wasnt a big deal.

Not a big deal multiplied across a lot of people is a big deal.

20 years ago you couldn't share documents to multiple people without photocopying and posting the lot, now you can share it instantly. It wasn't a big deal but I wouldn't want to go back to that waste of time

 

[NinjaFletch]

For what it's worth, if I'm not mistaken the main problem is not regarding degrees but about research and the fact that British Universities will most likely lose a certain amount of researchers. I could be wrong though.

It's a bit of a perfect storm of issues of which Brexit is a huge one, but is made worse because of other issues that aren't related.

But the two huge Brexit issues are to do with funding and personnel. EU researchers who can go elsewhere are going elsewhere (and why not when they can have more certainty) and funding that comes from the EU is up in the air.

That's bad news, but might be mitigated relatively easily if the political will was there, but it isn't and, instead, the government are cutting (or trying to cut) other revenue streams for the universities.

What's ironic is that universities like Cambridge, Oxford, St Andrews etc... are incredible examples of soft-power, but in the name of whatever the feck people think they'll achieve with Brexit they're pissing that up the wall.

 

[fcbforever]

@I Believe

Unreadable. System can't qoute it.

Also, I won't edit it. Nobody gives a shit about Russells or the concept behind it, I doubt people are even aware it exists outside of GB. [EDIT: Quick google search in French and German confirms it: if you search Russells, even if you search only in those languages, the first page of google results still only displays English results almost entirely] They do care about some of it's individual universities though, like Glasgow, Edinburgh, Oxford or Cambridge. That's all I said and I stand by it. Here, because, yet again, you misqouted and left out essential parts (which is becoming really annoying, to a point where I consider putting you on ignore. And I'm Trump here??):

You would also, if you hadn't deliberately misqouted me, known that I didn't say nobody gives a flying feck about all of Russels Universities

See the difference? Guess not.

You also still don't understand ERASMUS isn't a student exchange program solely, it's a cooperation of European Universities on numerous fields. Including the highly valuable common standard called ECTS.

 

[fcbforever]

To bring this useless discussion to a conclusion: what I originally took offense for was the fact that you seemed to imply that GB doesn't need those systems because the "Russell Group" as such is prestigious enough to not reap any benefit from it. While that is true for some of them for sure, that's not down to the existence of Russells but their individual reputation. If you think this won't have an impact on Universities like Belfast, Exeter, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff, Bristol etc, I have to question your sanity. Because if I want to go abroad and I can chose between Lisbon, Lyon and Manchester, why would I chose Manchester when I have problems getting my courses and degrees recognized there. On reputation alone, most British Univiersities don't have any advantages over the continent.

 

[Stanley Road]

Not a big deal multiplied across a lot of people is a big deal.

20 years ago you couldn't share documents to multiple people without photocopying and posting the lot, now you can share it instantly. It wasn't a big deal but I wouldn't want to go back to that waste of time

Its really not a big deal and i preferred having to 'check in' with the police every so often. It gave a feeling of legality.

 

[I Believe]

Nobody gives a shit about Russells or the concept behind it

You obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't go to all this trouble to condemn it!

So for all your bluster and raging about being misunderstood, misquoted and making arguments which only you seem to think worth making,
you still haven't explained how its going to be harder for British students to study in the EU, post Brexit, that's always assuming they want to!
I've already acknowledge the Erasmus project was worthwhile, but unfortunately for whatever reason, few British students used it whilst we were in the EU, so why in heavens name would they suddenly want to make use of it when we are out?

 

[fcbforever]

You obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't go to all this trouble to condemn it!

So for all your bluster and raging about being misunderstood, misquoted and making arguments which only you seem to think worth making,
you still haven't explained how its going to be harder for British students to study in the EU, post Brexit, that's always assuming they want to!
I've already acknowledge the Erasmus project was worthwhile, but unfortunately for whatever reason, few British students used it whilst we were in the EU, so why in heavens name would they suddenly want to make use of it when we are out?

You brought it up. And since you seem to insist it's something special, I just explained to you why it isn't....

And I have explained it. Twice. If UK insists on getting out of FOM; they will have to leave ERASMUS as well, thus meaning they lose ECTS as well, thus meaning they lose the automatic recognition of degrees and courses. Basically, so far, if you made your Bachelor in the UK so far, you were automatically eligible for every master program in the EU in your field of expertise, give or take. Same the other way round. Even if you switched mid-term and wanted to finish your bachelor/master elsewhere, you would get your prior archievements recognized with ease.

And that's not even accounting for the most important part: if you leave the FOM agreement (and I have explained this before as well) you won't fall under EU regulations any more, meaning you will have to enter the EU's universities on the same qoutas as every other non EU citizens. So far no EU country could neglect a UK citizens right to study abroad as nationalities don't matter there under EU law, now they can.

It's funny I have to explain/defend that towards you, as I don't especially like that system as German education suffered quite a bit as we had to lower a lot of standards.

 

[I Believe]

Basically, so far, if you made your Bachelor in the UK so far, you were automatically eligible for every master program in the EU in your field of expertise, give or take

First of all thank you for a more considered approach to answering my question, less of the bluster and accusations.

If I have understood this correctly what you seem to be saying is that if Britain leaves the EU any first degree gained in Britain, as you state a Bachelor, will not be recognised in any EU country as the basis for attempting a second degree at Masters level in any EU University?

Secondly, British students seeking a degree place in any EU University, i.e. at first, second or PhD level will have to 'stand in line' with other non-EU applicants, regardless of what University has accredited their first or second level degree. This will have nothing to do with the qualifications being held or sought but primarily because their nationality would be a classed as non-EU. In other words the passport held by the student would be seen as the determining factor, even if the academic credentials were fulfilled?

Is that correct?

If so, would you expect that Britain will introduce a reciprocal system applied to EU students?

 

[Mozza]

Its really not a big deal and i preferred having to 'check in' with the police every so often. It gave a feeling of legality.

Your European citizenship makes you legal in 28 countries without the need to check in. Progress