I still wonder if the Tories tried to throw the election.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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I still wonder if the Tories tried to throw the election.
One last chance and all I am looking for here is an acknowledgement that the counter EU side of the argument may have a point.
Germany is running a trade surplus of 16 billion Euro's per month and they are not the only country running a surplus but they are the wealthiest country in the EU running the largest surplus. The single currency and market combine to undervalue German production ( The Germans themselves think around 30%) which is an incredible advantage and about which nothing is done despite that surplus being almost twice the target level.
Now all I am asking here is that if you think this is a bad idea and voted to leave you very well might have a point.
It is factually true. It is arguably a bad thing. It is a direct result of EU policy. The net effect is a concentration of wealth and power inside the richest areas in the EU.
Voting leave shows you don't support it.
I know you don't agree with this but I think it is a fair point. That is all. Now let's get on with the next twelve months and then everyone can say its been 2 years and I haven't heard one argument for the leave vote that's why we all know they are stupid racists.
An EU centralization and concentration changes the dynamic quite a lot.
It is much easier to move within your own country than moving to another country. That limits the number of people who can take the most effective course of action to counter the effect to a specific group of internationalist well trained well-educated people. Or remain voters for shorthand.
Also from a tax and spend perspective it is much easier, though still not easy at all, to grow consensus for redistribution inside a single country than across borders which is normally very unpopular.
I understand what you're getting at but do you think some guy in Workington or Middlesbrough or any part of the country away from the south-east believes that if the Uk leaves the EU he's going to better off, there's a much higher chance he's going to be worse off because of less funding amongst many other things.
If there is no logical explanation, what's left, that's why leavers are called stupid or racists, if they can't give a proper explanation ,as you can see people have offered different reasons but they're all shot down because a lot of what they believe is true isn't actually true, misinformation. If they say they don't care that they're going to be worse off , what else is left to justify their vote other some airy fairy belief that the Uk is still the mighty colonial power. 52% have gambled with the lives of the whole country and here we are a year down the line and still no-one knows what the future is, the EU still doesn't know what the UK wants other than the cake and eat it scenario.
It's just not going to happen.
One last chance and all I am looking for here is an acknowledgement that the counter EU side of the argument may have a point.
Germany is running a trade surplus of 16 billion Euro's per month and they are not the only country running a surplus but they are the wealthiest country in the EU running the largest surplus. The single currency and market combine to undervalue German production ( The Germans themselves think around 30%) which is an incredible advantage and about which nothing is done despite that surplus being almost twice the target level.
Now all I am asking here is that if you think this is a bad idea and voted to leave you very well might have a point.
It is factually true. It is arguably a bad thing. It is a direct result of EU policy. The net effect is a concentration of wealth and power inside the richest areas in the EU.
Voting leave shows you don't support it.
I know you don't agree with this but I think it is a fair point. That is all. Now let's get on with the next twelve months and then everyone can say its been 2 years and I haven't heard one argument for the leave vote that's why we all know they are stupid racists.
How will the UK leaving the EU ameliorate regional imbalances? The gutting of the UK's industrial base long predates the current undervaluing of Germany's currency. In fact, being only slightly facetious, the only likely rebalancing I see is London coming down as its services sector suffers from leaving the single market.
Nonsense. May explained what was was happening on January 17th. They listened, they commented. May is still primeminister, as no one has challeneged her. Nothing has changed except that her parliamentary majority has shrunk.
And BTW this has nothing to do with what I said.
If it's the proposal that I'm thinking of, it was destined to be rejected, as I said before, you cannot have a nation where some people are protected by ECJ, and the rest not. That would not work.
What's good enough for Brits might not be good enough for ex EU citizens?
Sounds like your confidence in the UK is at a very low point. Please, for the love of God, stay in France.
EU membership to the EU requires open borders.
Of Course. May Has given them a great offer regarding Eu citizens living here, and if they reject it, stuff em.
You said the EU seems all over the place, far from it. They've all said it's a start but not enough. Back to the UK to posture again.
No-one's challenged her because no-one wants the job at the moment, she'll be gone as soon as the time's right for the Tories. Rather ironic that she'll be the scapegoat when it all goes wrong, but at least she will have deserved it.
[/QUOTE]If it's the proposal that I'm thinking of, it was destined to be rejected, as I said before, you cannot have a nation where some people are protected by ECJ, and the rest not. That would not work.
What's good enough for Brits might not be good enough for ex EU citizens?[/QUOTE]
There have to be guarantees, there are none with May.
[/QUOTE]Sounds like your confidence in the UK is at a very low point. Please, for the love of God, stay in France.[/QUOTE]
There is no danger that I would ever live in the UK again, rest assured.
I am struggling to force myself to make a short visit.
[/QUOTE]EU membership to the EU requires open borders.[/QUOTE]
Wish you'd tell that to the passport control every time I queue up for an hour.
On a serious note read a page or two back, someone posted the reality.
[/QUOTE]Of Course. May Has given them a great offer regarding Eu citizens living here, and if they reject it, stuff em.[/QUOTE]
No she hasn't , there's no certainty whatsoever, their lives are still on hold. May will be back but yet another delay.
One last chance and all I am looking for here is an acknowledgement that the counter EU side of the argument may have a point.
Germany is running a trade surplus of 16 billion Euro's per month and they are not the only country running a surplus but they are the wealthiest country in the EU running the largest surplus. The single currency and market combine to undervalue German production ( The Germans themselves think around 30%) which is an incredible advantage and about which nothing is done despite that surplus being almost twice the target level.
Now all I am asking here is that if you think this is a bad idea and voted to leave you very well might have a point.
It is factually true. It is arguably a bad thing. It is a direct result of EU policy. The net effect is a concentration of wealth and power inside the richest areas in the EU.
Voting leave shows you don't support it.
I know you don't agree with this but I think it is a fair point. That is all. Now let's get on with the next twelve months and then everyone can say its been 2 years and I haven't heard one argument for the leave vote that's why we all know they are stupid racists.
Look, to me that whole premise is like someone saying they think that the offside rule stifles attacking play. Some think its a negative, some think its a positive. If someone makes a decent case, I might even come to agree with them. You know what conclusion I won't draw however? I won't decide that we should stop playing football as a result. That's the remain/leave debate to me.
Any of the areas where the Leave voters might well have a point (and I don't think the EU is perfect by any means) are so frankly insignificant in comparison to the whole thing that wanting to leave because of them is just insanity to me. If 'Well Germany don't follow the rules and now they're really rich' is the best anyone can come up with, then why aren't they asking why we don't just do the same? Could it be perhaps that we're not well run enough as a country to run a damn trade surplus, and leaving the EU isn't going to change that any time soon?
The offer gives EU nationals the right to become British citizens over a specific time frame. The ECJ will not be given jurisdiction on any matters concerning them post brexit.
It would be highly unlikely that any british government would be willing to compromise on this, and so this part of the negotiation will be swift I think. But as I said, May's offer also gave the EU an indication that the UK is serious about ending 'free movement of people', and this is what seems to have bothered Merkel and Macron more than anything. These two will be the important ones to watch during negotiations, as the EU officials like Tusk, Junker, Barnier etc are just puppets.
If you listen to what Merkel is saying here, she is happy about May's proposal regarding EU citizens living here, but of course it points to an end of free movement after the five years, and this is where we'll see a strong response by the EU down the line. With a divided parliament right now, it'll be this issue about trade and immigration that's going to be making all the headlines later in the year.
So you really don't understand what you are talking about. First the UK proposed nothing because EU nationals already have the right to apply for British Citizenship after 5 years, so on that particular subject May basically offered nothing.
As for Merkel, what she says is "Today was a waste of time, nothing has been discussed and I will remind to PM May that future negotiations are pointless without acceptance of the four EU freedoms."
The proposal was about giving assurances to EU citizens currently living here, which Merkel stated "was a good beginning". Do you think it was a good beginning?
No. The four freedoms issue is not yet part of negotiations, but May's proposal to the EU to assure citizens here, has given them clear understanding of our intention regarding free movement.
The proposal was about giving assurances to EU citizens currently living here, which Merkel stated "was a good beginning". Do you think it was a good beginning?
No. The four freedoms issue is not yet part of negotiations, but May's proposal to the EU to assure citizens here, has given them clear understanding of our intention regarding free movement.
Merkel is German. She knows the extent of what a Xenophobic government can reach. The fact that the TM's government is not planning to reduce the EU immigrants rights to less to what others get is a good start.
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The proposal was about giving assurances to EU citizens currently living here, which Merkel stated "was a good beginning". Do you think it was a good beginning?
No. The four freedoms issue is not yet part of negotiations, but May's proposal to the EU to assure citizens here, has given them clear understanding of our intention regarding free movement.
What assurances have been given, exactly? The application for British citizenship is already available, it's available to anyone living in the UK for at least 5 years, it's also not an assurance of anything since it can be rejected.
As for Merkel, she is being diplomatic. If you can't see that there is absolutely no point to this conversation.
She's German. She knows what a xenophobic government can do. For her, the fact that this government is not planning mass deportations is already a good start.
Depressing just how glib and casual those leading the negotiations seem to be. We genuinely don't seem to be beyond the 'they need us more than we need them', point. David Davis promised the 'argument of the summer' would be whether we negotiate our future relationship with the EU was negotiated along side the leaving settlement - an argument over (and lost) before they broke for lunch on day one. This is going to be an absolute car crash.
As FresnoBob used to say on here "Reasonable minds may differ". My view is that the increasingly right wing press and politics in many parts of the world is taking advantage of people who feel left behind and this is the fault of all sides of politics over at least the last 40 years. When people feel left behind and ignored they are easy prey for cynical opportunist like UKIP and the leave campaign in general. Leave is such a spectacularly bad idea. Not one of the reasons to leave holds water, not even close.
Joining the EU was a spectacular success and much needed because we were proving to be terrible at running our own economy. The idea that we were fooled by the press in to joining is ludicrous and just because the union evolved isn't an argument against it. Everything changes. And what exactly are we forced to do that we don't want to? Most of the things the Tories don't like involve reducing rights and wages for people not like us.
How does the EU restrict the UK's democracy? We could just as easily get rid of the monarchy and the lords as part of the EU as we could going it alone.
Davis now saying a deal is not certain.
She is just being diplomatic and she doesn't mind making it clear when she says "I need to be careful".
And it's not the EU view, it's the view of Slovakia PM.
Managing expectations. He knows that very, very quickly the government will be on the ropes. Soon the likes of May, Davis et al will switch to using the negotiations to get the best deal for Britain to a mechanism through which they can prolong their own political futures. If things appear to be going terribly wrong and the EU play hardball then pretending that it's some part of 'we're happy with no deal anyway' plan, is only (feeble) out they have from keeping the wolf from the door
The diplomatic equivalent of falling tripping over a pavement on the street and smashing your face on the floor and trying to style it out by insisting you always intended to go to the hospital anyway
UK Trade Minister being interviewed by Andrew Neill at the moment - completely fumbling in the dark and reduced to "it will be alright on the night" platitudes.
I find that both funny and terrifying. I'm certain that there are people who would rejoice at that scenario
I find that both funny and terrifying. I'm certain that there are people who would rejoice at that scenario
Desperate times. It's like in the US where the horribly powerful intelligence agencies everyone spent decades fearing were capable of overthrowing democracy are now being relied on by half the country to overthrow Trump.
Can davies really afford walking out of the negotiation table? A hard brexit will bring a revolt within the tory party and will see labour, dub, lib dem and SNP together and against it. It would be the end of Theresa May's David Davies's and probably boris political career
Brexit is like betting your life savings on Moyes Utd winning the champions league with Rooney up front & Fellani as the main 'creative outlet' a chance you'll be better off after it but a significantly larger chance that you'll be royally fecked.
Honestly, what benefit is worth the risk of leaving the EU?
Might be some benefits but once the UK leaves, no one is going to fecking notice these benefits are they? Sovereignty sounds all good on paper, but the days of the Empire are long gone. While the disadvantages will be felt more by those that voted leave.. seems vaguely familar to the situation in the US..
Those favourable to Brexit are going to resemble Liverpool fans soon 'This is our year' 'Next year Brexit will be a resounding success just you wait' 26 years later, Brexit will still be a
a load of 'jump off cliff hope for the best' BULLSHIT.
Once we leave, we will NOT be in a position where there's plenty of countries willing to bend over backwards for a trade deal, forcing May to play ENEEEEEE MEEEENIIEE MINEYY MOO with them. Infact, the realisation that only a minority of countries want a trade deal with us & all of those deals will most likely favour them not us will eventually settle in. I don't see how it's possible that we will get a better deal than what we currently have? Even if the stars aligned and leaving the EU went perfectly.
Although, those that voted for Brexit won't blame themselves noooo. They'll blame DEMMM IMMMIIGRANTSS and the EU & the government but never themselves that's a bet worth risking your life savings on.
My favourite comment so far that I've heard about May & Brexit
"May resembles Maggie Thatcher and thus Brexit will be a success, 'strong & stable' suits her perfectly". - Gun to head moment.
Honestly, what benefit is worth the risk of leaving the EU?
Might be some benefits but once the UK leaves, no one is going to fecking notice these benefits are they? Sovereignty sounds all good on paper, but the days of the Empire are long gone. While the disadvantages will be felt more by those that voted leave.. seems vaguely familar to the situation in the US..
Those favourable to Brexit are going to resemble Liverpool fans soon 'This is our year' 'Next year Brexit will be a resounding success just you wait' 26 years later, Brexit will still be a
a load of 'jump off cliff hope for the best' BULLSHIT.
Once we leave, we will NOT be in a position where there's plenty of countries willing to bend over backwards for a trade deal, forcing May to play ENEEEEEE MEEEENIIEE MINEYY MOO with them. Infact, the realisation that only a minority of countries want a trade deal with us & all of those deals will most likely favour them not us will eventually settle in. I don't see how it's possible that we will get a better deal than what we currently have? Even if the stars aligned and leaving the EU went perfectly.
Although, those that voted for Brexit won't blame themselves noooo. They'll blame DEMMM IMMMIIGRANTSS and the EU & the government but never themselves that's a bet worth risking your life savings on.
My favourite comment so far that I've heard about May & Brexit
"May resembles Maggie Thatcher and thus Brexit will be a success, 'strong & stable' suits her perfectly". - Gun to head moment.
It's certainly a topsy-turvy time we're going through. Right wing catholics are busy denouncing "inquisitions", communist parties denounce gulags and neo-fascists denounce dictatorships.
Polls seem to reveal that opinion hasn't shifted that much, with one showing 52/48 for leave and the other 51/49 for remain; pretty much where we were a year ago. And that's outside negotiations taking place where the narrative has been entirely: "STOP TALKING OUR COUNTRY DOWN!!!" from our press. Now they are starting and it'll soon be evident by leaks from the negotiations just how weak our position is and how poor any deal we could possibly get would be I wouldn't be surprised at all see support for scrapping the whole idea to be the majority public opinion inside 12 months.
Could be. On the other hand I've noticed that when any country is in dispute with outside forces it's people seem to rally to a 'my country first, us against the rest' position. In fact there's been many a national leader who's attempted to reverse their unpopularity at home by starting foreign disputes and foreign wars. Galtieri for one, although it turned out to be Thatcher that benefited from the patriotic effect, ironically.
I think a lot of folk are predicting the future mostly on the basis that it is the one that will prove they have been right all along really, which is human nature I suppose.
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The really mental thing is that we won't give the ECJ jurisdiction yet we are willing to consent to putting the deal into international law. This suggests we want to create a new, separate (doubtless fabulously expensive) court made up of British and EU lawyers...so what's the fecking point?! We now have 2 ECJs instead of one and everybody pays through the nose for it. Down with tyrannical bureaucracy eh?
I wonder if people misunderstand that quote on purpose. Asking politicians not to abuse referendums as tools for their domestic politics is not even close to being the same as rejecting democracy.
I think most of the points have already been answered and explained above , that the offer made by May is pretty meaningless, she might as well not have said anything. The fact she has at least said something is a start. Avoiding answering points and saying catch phrases and clichés might work with the British electorate, it won't work with the EU.
If free movement ends then there will be no trade deal, very simple. There are going to be a lot of headlines in the UK, not in Europe, as far as most people are concerned here the Uk has already left and there is very little coverage on Brexit whereas you turn on a UK news channel it's either Brexit or some other horrible thing that's happened
and the important thing is whether the EU think its worth the hassle. If not they might as well send Davis empty handed. This will, most likely, cause a political revolution in the UK with a more EU party going into government.
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I bet the EU's negotiators are shitting themselves having seen the Tories being outwitted by a bunch of creationists to the tune of £100m a head.
Don't think the talks will last very long, pay your bill and sod off is the most likely scenario atm
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Nothing wrong with believing in creation, and nothing wrong with acquiring money to invest in Northern Ireland. The Tory's desperately needed support, so met the demands. Both win, but the DUP more so. Even Gerry approves.
The EU are pissed off at the moment, so let's see how they respond to May's proposal.
Does he now?