Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Stanley Road said:
I also see that you contribute almost 50% less to health care than i do
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If we could get that welfare bill down it would be a start. Health is getting the second biggest allocation, but is still chronically underfunded.
 
God knows what crap they'll be spending it on when Britain leaves the EU. Maybe billboard to reminds everybody that everything's is just fine and is going to continue to be fine.
 
Jippy said:
If we could get that welfare bill down it would be a start. Health is getting the second biggest allocation, but is still chronically underfunded.
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Under-spending on the NHS is one way to bring that welfare bill down by potentially shortening the lifespan of civil service pension holders. The welfare bill in that breakdown is one of the biggest political misdirections ever and plays into the Mail's hands by demonising all those on welfare as it fails to declare that almost a quarter of that welfare sum is spent on topping up the state pension with things like fuel allowances and long term care for the sick and elderly and another quarter on paying civil service pensions including police, nursing, fire services etc which should realistically be lumped in with state pensions, health or civil defence.
 
Jippy said:
If we could get that welfare bill down it would be a start. Health is getting the second biggest allocation, but is still chronically underfunded.
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I worked at a building site for a construction of a new super hospital (for 3 years). The main construction companies ransomed the NHS in the final year because they held the cards when it came to the warranties. So they would often charge 100% markup (minimum) on sub contractors quotes and the NHS would reluctantly agree. A £2,000 job which we thought was taking the piss a wee bit got quoted to the NHS at £18,000. The job entailed lifting up 4 ceiling tiles and installing a 25m long fibre cable.

If it was happening at this site, bet it happens everywhere. Problem isn't NHS funding, problem is how the money is spent imo.
 
Bury Red said:
Under-spending on the NHS is one way to bring that welfare bill down by potentially shortening the lifespan of civil service pension holders. The welfare bill in that breakdown is one of the biggest political misdirections ever and plays into the Mail's hands by demonising all those on welfare as it fails to declare that almost a quarter of that welfare sum is spent on topping up the state pension with things like fuel allowances and long term care for the sick and elderly and another quarter on paying civil service pensions including police, nursing, fire services etc which should realistically be lumped in with state pensions, health or civil defence.
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Yeah, they keep moving the goalposts, particularly regarding which silo the state pension is included in. I guess you could add in things like free bus fares and TV licences for the elderly, along with winter fuel allowances etc...I might have a look back at previous years' tax breakdowns tonight, because they do seem to change it every year.
RedSky said:
I worked at a building site for a construction of a new super hospital (for 3 years). The main construction companies ransomed the NHS in the final year because they held the cards when it came to the warranties. So they would often charge 100% markup (minimum) on sub contractors quotes and the NHS would reluctantly agree. A £2,000 job which we thought was taking the piss a wee bit got quoted to the NHS at £18,000. The job entailed lifting up 4 ceiling tiles and installing a 25m long fibre cable.

If it was happening at this site, bet it happens everywhere. Problem isn't NHS funding, problem is how the money is spent imo.
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It's all too believable and depressing tbh.
 
EyeInTheSky said:
yep it happens in all organisations of every type when it becomes siloed and too large to manage effectively.

There are areas where it is more obvious like, do you remember that massive IT project to update the NHS and it went catastrophically wrong?
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There are so many projects that have been scrapped so I'm not sure which one. Was it something they spent billions on and then just dropped it?
 
Bury Red said:
Under-spending on the NHS is one way to bring that welfare bill down by potentially shortening the lifespan of civil service pension holders. The welfare bill in that breakdown is one of the biggest political misdirections ever and plays into the Mail's hands by demonising all those on welfare as it fails to declare that almost a quarter of that welfare sum is spent on topping up the state pension with things like fuel allowances and long term care for the sick and elderly and another quarter on paying civil service pensions including police, nursing, fire services etc which should realistically be lumped in with state pensions, health or civil defence.
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Yes i remember reading about this - absolute joke and should be highlighted more clearly.
 
Stanley Road said:
i'd say underfunded and under managed
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One of the big initiatives a few years back was to sack managers because they were a part of the 'bloat' and replace the with Doctors because doctors know medicine.

I don't know how far that scheme got, but the demonisation of paying people who are good at organising to organise always struck me as a bit weird.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I'd love to see the tax breakdown of the average Brexiter, I estimate that a high number don't pay very much tax at all.
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Yeah, this is how it all went wrong for Britain:

Working class householders in the cities received the vote in 1867. Those in the countryside did so in 1884. Finally, non-householders — people living with their parents, or in the homes of their employers (such as servants), or in barracks (soldiers, etc), or who were homeless — got the vote in 1918.
 
712 said:
Yeah, this is how it all went wrong for Britain:

Working class householders in the cities received the vote in 1867. Those in the countryside did so in 1884. Finally, non-householders — people living with their parents, or in the homes of their employers (such as servants), or in barracks (soldiers, etc), or who were homeless — got the vote in 1918.
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That's not my point, we've had a breakdown of age, of geographical position, of education etc , let's have a breakdown of amount of tax paid, I'll have a bet that the tax paid by the 48% is far superior to that paid by the 52%.
 
Stanley Road said:
Such generalisation but.....if you are right, what value is the eu and especially fom to this group?
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Well I can understand the unemployed eager to stop the immigrants taking their jobs and are very eager to get out there in the job market instead of living off the state.

When the increased cost of the pensioners' shopping basket exceeds the amount of tax they were paying towards the EU, they may well start complaining that it was better in the old days, when the UK were still in the EU.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Well I can understand the unemployed eager to stop the immigrants taking their jobs and are very eager to get out there in the job market instead of living off the state.

When the increased cost of the pensioners' shopping basket exceeds the amount of tax they were paying towards the EU, they may well start complaining that it was better in the old days, when the UK were still in the EU.
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Yeah ok
 
Paul the Wolf said:
That's not my point, we've had a breakdown of age, of geographical position, of education etc , let's have a breakdown of amount of tax paid, I'll have a bet that the tax paid by the 48% is far superior to that paid by the 52%.
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It's very much my point. Democracy isn't accidental, it needed to be fought for and it needs respecting, today just as much as it ever did.
What's next on your list I wonder, why not have a breakdown of sex, race, religion, disability or immigration status while you're at it?
 
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712 said:
It's very much my point. Democracy isn't accidental, it needed to be fought for and it needs respecting, today just as much as it ever did.
What's next on your list I wonder, why not have a breakdown of sex, race, religion, disability or immigration status while you're at it?
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I have nothing against democracy , everyone should have a vote over 18.

Still missing my point - Jippy paid £174 towards the EU from his salary in a whole year, by the amount of tax he paid he earns a good wage.
Thus it can be taken that the amount of tax paid by the majority of people was much less than this amount.

Thus my point is the fallacy that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was partly due to the economic hardship caused by the EU on the average British person - in other words, a load of bs
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I have nothing against democracy , everyone should have a vote over 18.

Still missing my point - Jippy paid £174 towards the EU from his salary in a whole year, by the amount of tax he paid he earns a good wage.
Thus it can be taken that the amount of tax paid by the majority of people was much less than this amount.

Thus my point is the fallacy that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was partly due to the economic hardship caused by the EU on the average British person - in other words, a load of bs
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It's barely that much more than a TV licence or Hammersmith & Fulham annual parking permit. Hardly worth gambling your entire economy about.
That's the crazy thing.
 
Jippy said:
It's barely that much more than a TV licence or Hammersmith & Fulham annual parking permit. Hardly worth gambling your entire economy about.
That's the crazy thing.
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For a lot of people it's much less than that.
We all know it's nothing about money. People are prepared to sacrifice who knows what just to leave the EU.
There is one main reason but people try to hide behind other excuses.
 
Jippy said:
It's barely that much more than a TV licence or Hammersmith & Fulham annual parking permit. Hardly worth gambling your entire economy about.
That's the crazy thing.
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I agree entirely, a sum well worth paying for the benefits, political and economic, of EU membership as far as I'm concerned.

But we are where we are, etc.
Maybe we need two EU threads, one to re-fight the referendum and heap due blame upon the categories of voters responsible for getting it wrong, and one to actually discuss where we go from here.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I have nothing against democracy , everyone should have a vote over 18.

Still missing my point - Jippy paid £174 towards the EU from his salary in a whole year, by the amount of tax he paid he earns a good wage.
Thus it can be taken that the amount of tax paid by the majority of people was much less than this amount.

Thus my point is the fallacy that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was partly due to the economic hardship caused by the EU on the average British person - in other words, a load of bs
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What did he get in return for his 174? feck all I expect.

All you seem to be outlining is there are more Have Nots then Have's and thats a pitiful society, its also a reflection of most European countries I'd imagine.

But surely the Have Nots cannot all be thick, yet they might feel aggrieved.

It also sounds from your argument that only the better off feel the benefit of the eu.

Not a great reason to stay in
 
The "have nots" are huge benefactors and will suffer the most by exit. 1.4 billion quid a year was redirected to poorer areas. And the "have nots" pay next to nothing if not actually nothing for membership. Yet they also gained part of the 2 billion a year that EU migrants add to the UK economy, the vast majority of which they will probably now lose.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
For a lot of people it's much less than that.
We all know it's nothing about money. People are prepared to sacrifice who knows what just to leave the EU.
There is one main reason but people try to hide behind other excuses.
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Im prepared to sacrifice my job and possibly my house for a cause that grips me enough, what are you prepared to sacrifice to keep the uk in the eu Paul? what are you prepared to sacrifice for anything you believe in?
 
Wibble said:
The have nots are huge benefactors and will suffer the most by exit. And pay next to nothing if not actually nothing for membership. Yet they also gained part of the 2 billion a year that EU migrants add to the UK economy, the vast majority of which they will probably now lose.
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How are they huge beneficiaries,.how do they experience those benefits?
 
712 said:
Democracy isn't accidental, it needed to be fought for and it needs respecting, today just as much as it ever did.
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It's not a be all and end all on it's own. There are bad democracies too where the corrupt few take advantage of the public. Kind of a common theme amongst most developing world democracies imo. I don't respect democracy just because it is so. It's the way it functions, people who govern etc that deserve it's respect.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
For a lot of people it's much less than that.
We all know it's nothing about money. People are prepared to sacrifice who knows what just to leave the EU.
There is one main reason but people try to hide behind other excuses.
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Indeed. We had the anti-Polish graffiti on the local community centre round here. It's sad, we have a large EU national population in H&F and my own wife is brown and foreign born. Someone's going to do something really stupid at some point.
712 said:
I agree entirely, a sum well worth paying for the benefits, political and economic, of EU membership as far as I'm concerned.

But we are where we are, etc.
Maybe we need two EU threads, one to re-fight the referendum and heap due blame upon the categories of voters responsible for getting it wrong, and one to actually discuss where we go from here.
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We might as well have two threads- I doubt anyone has changed their entrenched view in this thread.
 
Stanley Road said:
Im prepared to sacrifice my job and possibly my house for a cause that grips me enough, what are you prepared to sacrifice to keep the uk in the eu Paul? what are you prepared to sacrifice for anything you believe in?
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Most people paid nowhere near £174 a year, it's nothing or next to nothing in most cases.

I'm not sacrificing anything, always stay a step ahead of the game.

As since the beginning of this whole story, I want the real reason behind all this to be pronounced, very few will say the real reason.
 
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