To be fair, that was also in large part due to exhaustion after the devastation of 1914-45 (like after 1815) and the subsequent demiltarisation under the American defence shield. Many of the old hatreds and suspicions still bubble under the surface in parts of the EU, not just in places like Hungary where a large chunk of people still go on about the Treaty of Trianon but also if you hear someone like Le Pen referring to Russia as a traditional ally and counterweight to Germany. As we lose our living link with WWII, I fear this will only get worse.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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To be fair, that was also in large part due to exhaustion after the devastation of 1914-45 (like after 1815) and the subsequent demiltarisation under the American defence shield. Many of the old hatreds and suspicions still bubble under the surface in parts of the EU, not just in places like Hungary where a large chunk of people still go on about the Treaty of Trianon but also if you hear someone like Le Pen referring to Russia as a traditional ally and counterweight to Germany. As we lose our living link with WWII, I fear this will only get worse.
I don't want to triavalise 3000 years of history but most of the wars fought in Europe were fought mainly between a powerful bloc/country vs another powerful bloc/country. The EU gathered all countries together under a single banner with issues being dealt by the ECJ.
Also note that blocs makes war less likely to occur. Hence why there had been less wars in the US (1 civil war) then as in Europe. Scotland, England and Wales prospered after the formation of the UK which was instrumental in allowing the UK to focus in dedicating less time fighting one another and more time in invading other lands.
You didn't say otherwise but you are using minorities here. It's like using the existence of the KKK to say that the ideas of segregation are bubbling in the US.
Switzerland has rejected imposing quotas on EU workers in a bid to preserve its close economic ties with the bloc, opting instead to try to curb immigration by giving residents priority in new job vacancies
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/switzerland-u-turn-quotas-on-eu-workers-immigration
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/switzerland-u-turn-quotas-on-eu-workers-immigration
Define peaceful first
But it just depends where you draw the border, doesn't it? Your first paragraph describes perfectly the EU-Russia dispute over Ukraine. And, in a few years time,it could just as easily describe a dispute with Erdogan's Turkey. Also, blocs, if dysfunctional, can fall apart with messy consequences. And, even as a Remainer, I have to say the EU is dysfunctional in many respects.
What's worse than an immigrant, an emigrant
I don't know how well you you know Hungary but I can assure you the prevalence of anti-Romania feeling is not the preserve of a few nutjobs like the KKK. As for France, I defer to you (although how well do you know what la France profonde really thinks - months before, I had thought Brexit would be at least 60% remain). However, whether Le Pen is in a minority view or not with her Russophilia, she is one of the two candidates for the highest office in the land and therefore her views have to be taken seriously.
That's another matter altogether and its enshrined in European history. Europe has a long history of looking down at its more powerful yet somehow less sophisticated neighbour since Roman times. Which is kind of awkward because when Russia sneezed most of the time Europe got hurt. Its time we learn that we cannot choose our neighbours and therefore we're better off learning to live with them even though they might do things we do not like. It comes from a person whose nation lived alongside the mad dog for many many years.
Hence why I believe the EU needs to cut its umbilical cord from the US and the UK, it should build its own army and its should shape its own future. Its one thing hiding behind your bigger brother in the West (who might even be a bigger bully then you himself) and its another dealing with your own problems knowing that if you mess up, you're the one who'll end up bruised. If the usual warmongers want to engage war with Russia then please do but lets keep Europe out of it. Considering how the Vietnam war ended it won't end up nice.
well, peace for a Maltese is probably not having a big chunk of our population killed/nearly starved to death because of some invader.
How can you agree with Stan, I mean he has lived in Holland for far longer than I have in France, so he must be well and truly out of touch, but of course he favours Brexit
I don't know what la France profonde really thinks, other than that we are all tired of politicians and that if we were to make a frexit tomorrow the leave would probably win because a lot of people wouldn't vote, a big part would sanction the current government and the third part would be made of right and left "nationalists" who have always been against anyone that doesn't sing La Marseillaise(when they can't do it themselves).
It's actually terrifying seeing government ministers replying to claims from the EU with little more than 'You wish, Jonny Foreigner!'. Seriously if a business executive behaved like this, they'd be laughed out of their job in a day.
I would say unrest, racism and terrorism sre not peaceful.
Probably because your lot have been labelling every exit voter as an idiot.
I didnt come to holland cos it is in the eu the same way i wont rush back to england when Brexit is finalised. If i had enuff money not to worry about work then i could easily move back one day. The mrs would love to as well
I am learning that I will not get last word with you
) As for Russia, my own take on it having lived there is that they only respect strength and traditional euro diplomacy is useless. If Europe wants to deal with Russia without the US, then it needs to carry a big stick. At the moment, only the UK reliably wields that big stick. France sometimes does, depending on the President, while the others are military pygmies. Another reason not to totally punish the UK even if our politicians sometimes seem to deserve it.No, imo exit voters are either delusional or xenophobic or racist or idealists but mostly because they have been lied to and are gullible enough to believe it. After all this time still haven't seen a valid argument. Which led to my question about the other possible reason as to what makes a Brit so proud as opposed to other European countries.
If you wish to go back to the UK at some point, good for you, you have a choice, you should be able to live where you want provided you are not a burden on the country where you chose to live. Brits, or English people as you may prefer, can live in the UK (England) and be a burden on the country (I'm not referring to you).
I didn't come to France because it is in the EU either, I live here because I love France which fortunately is in the EU. Even if it wasn't in the EU I would still have come here but as a bonus I can enjoy the benefits of freedom of movement and trade because it is in the EU.
I am learning that I will not get last word with you
Not really, no. Serbia was never a powerhouse but Russia went to war to defend it. WW1 costed Russia the death of millions of people and a regime change which would bring misery to them for decades. Same thing can be said about Syria. Russia defended the Assad regime even though such action caused heavy sanctions on Russia. The same happened in Ukraine were Russia stepped in to defend Russian speaking Ukranians who suffered from years of discrimination. What Russia does is, defending its allies. I wonder whether the US-UK allies can say the same. Maybe we can ask the Shah or Saddam Hussein about their opinion on that.
You make it sound that Russia had been causing wars all over the place but it certainly didn't. The majority of terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism is financed by UK-US ally Saudi Arabia. However no one barely ever say anything about that. We also know who was behind destroying Iraq and who was the catalyst behind turning a democratic Iran into an absolute monarchy which consequently cause a revolt which paved the way to Islamism. Speaking of revolt its never cease to make wonder how the wide majority of countries affected by the Arab spring were countries who happen to be anti West. We've got close ties with Libya and I happen to have Libyan friends. Sure Gheddafi was a ahole but he was mellowing and the country was at the cusp of greatness. There was plenty of optimism in the country who was starting to enjoy heavy investment from the 4 corners of the world. Gheddafi was soon to retire with his son Saadi who was far less volatile then daddy taking over. His dream was to create a sort of EU of Africa with Libya being its Germany. Then suddenly war broke and Libya ended up a little Somalia with Muslim fundamentalists wielding US weaponary. I wonder from were they got that stuff.
Don't take me wrong Russia is no saint. However if look around you, you'll notice that most wars aren't influenced by Russia at all. Sure there's Syria. Yet no one barely speaks of Yemen despite the country being equally attacked. Boris did and he was sent in the corner by the wicked witch of the west because the UK doesn't speak badly about their anti human. women, gay rights friends who finance terrorism and aren't particularly keen in things such as democracy. Which really makes you wonder what would happen if a federal Europe, with a real army of its own, starts getting fed up of having to receive the consequences of the warmongers wars? What would happen if instead of sanctioning Russia, its start sanctioning the UK or the US with some help from Russia and China. No wonder why some people are getting hot under the collar of having a federal and independent Europe with no US lackey vetoing every attempt of making the project work.
Good bit from O'Toole
I wonder how many things in my house are from the eu region, no electronics for sure. I bet if i find anything it was made or assembled outside the eu.
As far as movement is concerned i dont go anywhere, portugal maybe once per year.
That's an interesting post, food for thought...
Yes,good post
Exactly the same can be said of those that voted remain
Or do you think fear of north korea, ww3, plague, locusts and certain death are genuine realities waiting to happen
How gullible remainers were
I didn't mention any of those things
That's the same everywhere, cars, food, furnitureetc, but you didn't buy them from outside the EU - I can buy whatever I want from within the EU without worrying about duty, import licences, customs inspections and so on.
I was in the trading business with companies based in the UK, fortunately I no longer am, pity the poor sods if the UK is out of the EU.
You travel to the Uk as well but you can travel where you like without visa and so on or even currency exchange.
As you say you may return to the UK in the future, what if they say they won't let your mrs in to stay.
They wont
Well importing cheaper cars from Germany to NL carries a cost so its not all clear cut. Supermarkets are full of fruit and veg from countries outside the eu, stuff that can be grown right here and its pricey.
Best post I've read on here in a while.
Not sure I agree with all of that but one thing is for sure, involvement of European armies in these civil wars certainly invited extremists to retaliate on mainland Europe. Why should western countries decide that some hotspot needs regime change? So while there have been no wars in Europe since the forming of the EU. European countries don't mind and seem to thrive on getting involved in other peoples disputes
She's Dutch, isn't she? You know they don't want any of those pesky European foreigners invading their green and pleasant land.
They will, they do for non EU nationals and your Mrs will be treated the same once we've left
Trust me they wont
The EU has no say on what European armies do. The UK was the main reason to that. In matter of fact the UK still argues that the continent is safer if Europe is still military 'protected' by a coalition lead by a warmonger, whose got a thriving military industry and whose geographical location makes it impossible for it to be hit by any refugee saga. The no 1 terrorist donor is a US/UK ally, Islamist Iran is a UK/US brainchild, Isis fight with US weaponry, Iraq and Libya were turned into little Somalia by this US lead coalition and the list go on and on.
Now imagine if the EU doesn't depend on these gentlemen for protection. When the US decides to help topple yet another country with the aid of her usual Pinky, a military independent EU might be able to argue that they aren't so keen on it. After all if the US really cant resist wars then maybe they should cause one closer to home were they can enjoy the full brunt of the consequences they cause. Russia and China who tend to live, pretty close to the same region, the US/UK just love to upset may agree with them. Who knows, maybe together they can agree to sanctions against the US/UK if they decide to go through with their plans. They might even help the locals too to fight invasion. We all know what happened the last time the US went solo (ie without European help) in a war were China and Russia got pretty involved in don't we?. There's plenty of movies about it. My favourite is Platoon.
Trust me they will. They have a pledge to get migration down to the 'tens of thousands', they don't care who they hurt as they try to achieve it
Probably just subject to the same stuff as non eu spouse... prove relationship, get spouse visa granted abroad before coming over, prove six months earnings at a certain level (in uk)... all the crap I had to do with a Chinese wife who had lived in uk for ten years anyway!
it doesn't matter, terrorism has come to Europe because of it's involvement in civil wars
My friend has got his philipino wife permanent residency in NL within 3 months of her being here, first she was granted 6 months and now perm. within 1 week she had 2 jobs. Paul and co have fallen for Camerons north korea scaremongering unfortunately and are prepared to make sweeping statements before any negotiations start.
Well in truth nobody knows what will happen... personally I hope that if they do decide to treat eu the same as everybody else they look at the existing process and realise that at least from an admin point over view it's a clusterfek ... if they will look at the ethical stuff around income etc I have no idea... but for sure you couldn't put significantly more people into an already breaking process without it totally breaking
We are not talking about Holland here but the UK. Belive me as someone who's had the pleasure of going through the current system, they'll happily keep your Mrs out the country, they have a target to hit