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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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The Greens are not happy with Corbyn's Labour bending over for May.

Caroline
Lucas

'Labour’s premature capitulation on article 50 leaves those of us who oppose a hard Brexit in a weaker position.

As a result, we now have less power to persuade the government to give us proper details on their plans ahead of a vote.

Though we should not seek to overturn the result of the referendum, it is down to us as MPs to look closely at the deal on the table before throwing our support behind the government’s plans.

A small majority of people voted to leave the EU, but without any clear plan of what such a vote would mean.'
 
Classical Mechanic said:
His official Twitter at the time said quite different.
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Really ? He held a position a lot of people on the left had which was stay and reform, during the campaign he talked about how the EU needing to be reformed and that how he hasn’t been it's biggest fan in the past. What Mcdonnell said today shouldn’t come as a surprise.
 
Sweet Square said:
Really ? He held a position a lot of people on the left had which was stay and reform, during the campaign he talked about how the EU needing to be reformed and that how he hasn’t been it's biggest fan in the past. What Mcdonnell said today shouldn’t come as a surprise.
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It doesn't surprise me as I always knew that his heart wasn't in it and that he probably voted Leave. I'm sure some of his new members are very pro EU though and were not aware that he is anti EU.
 
I think this is basically correct

 
This was an amusing Corbyn moment. Asked if he was ready for a snap election by ITN and his aide shut down the reporter accusing them of harassment.



Does he even want to be heard?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
This was an amusing Corbyn moment. Asked if he was ready for a snap election by ITN and his aide shut down the reporter accusing them of harassment.



Does he even want to be heard?
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Saw that on HIGNFY, can't believe he ran away, Labour are fecked.
 
Pexbo said:
You don't like foreign people do you?

I do, the more the merrier.
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What on Earth gave you that impression? Because i don't believe that EU immigration should be without limit? My suggestion that we should be considering all non-residents on as even a basis as possible? Or that the UK should have accepted more asylum seekers from Iraq/Syria?

Your seeming policy of open borders however,i am not ashamed tos say that i oppose.
 
Bury Red said:
How do you educate people who read and believe the lies printed by the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph?
How do you educate people who admit they are tired of listening to experts, of being told what they are allowed to say and think by people with higher qualifications?
How do you educate people who flatly refuse to acknowledge the facts when they are staring them in the face?

I know the left love a bit of self flagellation and like to feel that they're in some way to blame but I can't buy this crap that we're hearing from the Brexiteers and Trump supporters. If you don't call out racism and fascism where you see it then you are complicit to it's success. That it is clearly in the majority now is a worrying sign that education has already failed a great many people.

Yes, there's people who have a right to feel left behind, disenfranchised and abandoned by the well to do, the political elite and yes, the educated. But the simple fact is that they have been seduced by the same old lies about immigrants and foreigners that the far right have trotted out for centuries when it's generally the more centre right, capitalist parties that have favoured business over workers, allowed jobs to be outsourced, wages depressed and protections removed. The old left, the unionists and yes, the EU tried in vain to protect jobs and workers' rights and all the while the workers believed the promises of prosperity for all in a capitalist utopia and repeatedly reelected the very people who were worsening their lives.

To be honest, beyond the sarcastic notion of IQ testing for voters, I can't actually see an answer. Let's face it, the right wing have always had the better PR, the snappier dressers and the bulk of the media backing them. The only chance the left or the liberals have of touching power is either playing lapdog to the tories in a coalition or by becoming them as Blair did, old labour is just too scruffy, too school teachery and too pinko for the brainwashed electorate to vote for these days and has makes it worse by tearing itself apart in a frenzy of self loathing and self blame every time they are rejected.

Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it.
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I don't disagree. But whatever we've tried, we've failed at it seems.

I don't think we should keep going down the same path is all. It seems utterly pointless to me to keep making the same mistakes over and over, the people have spoken and it's the failure to realise the issues that matter to them which seems to be the problem. Look at the last election over here, Labour made serious mistakes that cost them what should have been a real chance of getting back in with austerity and all that, but instead of reflecting on the actual mistakes (ignoring the general public feeling of the time) and trying to change that, they just descended into chaos with the blame game.

You can call people racist and thick and all that all you like, but in the days of social media and all that, those people are organised enough to actually make a difference and really do seem to be tired of the blanket statements like that. I don't think it's particularly Liberal to realise the mistakes and try to change them, after all the Remain campaign was shockingly shit and over in America Hillary seemed to go down a similar route. Reflection is needed, not blame, or things will only get worse.


I know, it's like banging our heads against a brick wall. But what else do we do? Give up? I don't want to be stuck with the same government for the next 20-odd years, considering they've just been given all the power to boot by the very people who should want them not to have it. It's a mess, but one we'll have to live with if we keep on with the same old routine.
 
Abizzz said:
Boris Johnson trying his hand at diplomacy:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...movement-myth-immigration-eu-uk-a7419026.html
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"It was never a founding principle of the European Union. It's a complete myth. Total myth."

Well, thank god for clearing that up, Johnson...

And here I thought that the "four freedoms" (people, goods, money, services) were one of the core ideas and goals of the Rome treaty in 1957, which established the EEC, the root of the European Union.
 
Bury Red said:
How do you educate people who read and believe the lies printed by the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph?
How do you educate people who admit they are tired of listening to experts, of being told what they are allowed to say and think by people with higher qualifications?
How do you educate people who flatly refuse to acknowledge the facts when they are staring them in the face?

I know the left love a bit of self flagellation and like to feel that they're in some way to blame but I can't buy this crap that we're hearing from the Brexiteers and Trump supporters. If you don't call out racism and fascism where you see it then you are complicit to it's success. That it is clearly in the majority now is a worrying sign that education has already failed a great many people.

Yes, there's people who have a right to feel left behind, disenfranchised and abandoned by the well to do, the political elite and yes, the educated. But the simple fact is that they have been seduced by the same old lies about immigrants and foreigners that the far right have trotted out for centuries when it's generally the more centre right, capitalist parties that have favoured business over workers, allowed jobs to be outsourced, wages depressed and protections removed. The old left, the unionists and yes, the EU tried in vain to protect jobs and workers' rights and all the while the workers believed the promises of prosperity for all in a capitalist utopia and repeatedly reelected the very people who were worsening their lives.

To be honest, beyond the sarcastic notion of IQ testing for voters, I can't actually see an answer. Let's face it, the right wing have always had the better PR, the snappier dressers and the bulk of the media backing them. The only chance the left or the liberals have of touching power is either playing lapdog to the tories in a coalition or by becoming them as Blair did, old labour is just too scruffy, too school teachery and too pinko for the brainwashed electorate to vote for these days and has makes it worse by tearing itself apart in a frenzy of self loathing and self blame every time they are rejected.

Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it.
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The lurch to the far right is making many traditionally right-leaning voters, like myself, uncomfortable. I would actually welcome a strong left to rein in the right.
The left, for me, has gone too far left and is too driven by ideology, not factoring in the fact that it too has to reel in its excesses to win the mass vote.
 
I don't agree that fascism and racism are now in the majority. The majority of people who voted Leave, or Trump, are neither of these things.

The major problem is really a weak centre. Moderate leadership for years and years has failed to improve things for a large slice of people and has caused them to look to something different. Some looked left, more looked right. The right is winning, marginally, because it is bolstered by ageing voters who think all types of left-leaning politics don't work.

We have to hope that people come to realise that extreme positions always get diluted and rarely amount to anything. Real change will have to be global and will take time.
 
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Classical Mechanic said:
On the other hand.........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/16/angela-merkel-brexit-free-movement-eu
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She said

“Were we to make an exception for the free movement of people with Britain, this would mean we would endanger principles of the whole internal market in the European Union, because everyone else will then want these exceptions,” Merkel told a meeting of the German employers’ association BDA.

Merkel said that if, for example, someone came to Germany from eastern Europe and worked only for a short time but acquired a lifelong claim on welfare benefits, “then I see a question about which we must talk again. Free movement applies to me in the sense that the employee himself earns the money he needs for himself and his family in the other member state.”

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Basically its the same welfare benefit argument which was brought forward by Merkel during the negotiations with Cameron.
 
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devilish said:
She said

“Were we to make an exception for the free movement of people with Britain, this would mean we would endanger principles of the whole internal market in the European Union, because everyone else will then want these exceptions,” Merkel told a meeting of the German employers’ association BDA.

Merkel said that if, for example, someone came to Germany from eastern Europe and worked only for a short time but acquired a lifelong claim on welfare benefits, “then I see a question about which we must talk again. Free movement applies to me in the sense that the employee himself earns the money he needs for himself and his family in the other member state.”

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Basically its the same welfare benefit argument which was brought forward by Merkel during the negotiations with Cameron.
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It is hope that we can stay in the single market whilst pacifying the right in this country.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
It is hope that we can stay in the single market whilst pacifying the right in this country.
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I think that freedom of movement need to be tweaked. For example I find it ridiculous that people are allowed to send the money from welfare benefits from one country to another. If someone’s family is not in the UK then he shouldn’t have access to the UK children allowance. Also its ridiculous that people are allowed to commit crime hopping. If let’s say, an EU national is caught pickpocketing in London, then that guy should barred from using his freedom of movement for X amount of years. That would require a European crime database to be set and maintained. There again I doubt many would complain too much about it.

There again, it’s equally ridiculous for any country to expect unrestricted access to the single market while keeping the people residing there at an arm’s length. It’s like saying that its ok for the UK to have unrestricted access to their money and markets but they don’t want anything to do with those who actually own and generate that wealth. If that’s the path the UK wants to go to, then it should aim for a trade deal instead, which would probably severely restrict the access to the single market but will allow the UK to make the controls it wants.

The UK is spoiled of choices. There's EU membership, EEA membership, the custom union, the Swiss model, the Turkish model (ie no EU/EEA membership but access to the custom union) and a trade deal. What the EU seems not too keen about is cherry picking from these deals
 
devilish said:
I think that freedom of movement need to be tweaked. For example I find it ridiculous that people are allowed to send the money from welfare benefits from one country to another. If someone’s family is not in the UK then he shouldn’t have access to the UK children allowance. Also its ridiculous that people are allowed to commit crime hopping. If let’s say, an EU national is caught pickpocketing in London, then that guy should barred from using his freedom of movement for X amount of years. That would require a European crime database to be set and maintained. There again I doubt many would complain too much about it.
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The ability to easily deport convicted criminals and ban them from reentry would go a long way to pacifying the Brexit bunch.
 
This made me chuckle... Italy's Economic Development Minister on his recent meeting with Boris...

Carlo Calenda said:
He basically said, "I don’t want free movement of people but I want the single market,” said Calenda. I said, "no way." He said, "you’ll sell less prosecco." I said, "OK, you’ll sell less fish and chips, but I’ll sell less prosecco to one country and you’ll sell less to 27 countries." Putting things on this level is a bit insulting.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cy-chaos-is-unacceptable-italy-s-calenda-says
 
At some point brexiteers will have to sell the lies with which they've deluded themselves to other EU countries. It'll be a hard sell.
 
Stanley Road said:
UK exports fish and chips does it? Aren't they cold by the time they get there?
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I think he's countering one stereotype (prosecco) with another (fish and chips). Hence why he ends the argument with "Putting things on this level is a bit insulting."
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Employment at an all time high (since records began), no cut in EU workers thus far.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ate-wage-growth-earnings-brexit-business-live
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That's a pretty amazing way to interpret that article, which states that a beforehand faster job growth is slowing down, a lot more people have applied for social welfare and while employment is at an all time high (due to more equality in the market, e.g. women working), unemployment is anywhere near any positive records.
 
fcbforever said:
That's a pretty amazing way to interpret that article, which states that a beforehand faster job growth is slowing down, a lot more people have applied for social welfare and while employment is at an all time high (due to more equality in the market, e.g. women working), unemployment is anywhere near any positive records.
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Or

Ben Brettell, senior economist at Hargreaves Lansdown, fears that UK unemployment will rise in the next few months:

The UK’s labour market continues to surprise with its resilience to the Brexit shock. The unemployment rate fell unexpectedly to a new 11-year low of 4.8% in the three months to September. This is yet more evidence that the labour market and the wider economy have fared better than expected since June’s referendum.

However, there could be storm clouds gathering on the horizon. The claimant count – which in a quirk of the data is a more recent figure than the unemployment rate – jumped by 9,800 in October, with September’s figure revised upwards from 700 to 5,600. All in all, it does seem likely that unemployment could tick up somewhat during the coming months, though dire predictions made in the immediate aftermath of the vote appear wide of the mark.

We all know, even the Brexiteers, that harder times are ahead. That we fare better than expected is good news.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Or

Ben Brettell, senior economist at Hargreaves Lansdown, fears that UK unemployment will rise in the next few months:

The UK’s labour market continues to surprise with its resilience to the Brexit shock. The unemployment rate fell unexpectedly to a new 11-year low of 4.8% in the three months to September. This is yet more evidence that the labour market and the wider economy have fared better than expected since June’s referendum.

However, there could be storm clouds gathering on the horizon. The claimant count – which in a quirk of the data is a more recent figure than the unemployment rate – jumped by 9,800 in October, with September’s figure revised upwards from 700 to 5,600. All in all, it does seem likely that unemployment could tick up somewhat during the coming months, though dire predictions made in the immediate aftermath of the vote appear wide of the mark.

We all know, even the Brexiteers, that harder times are ahead. That we fare better than expected is good news.
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Bit weird to talk about any evidence at all of Britain being resilient to Brexit, when Britain is still a part of the EU.

There was always going to be some sort of shock in the immediate aftermath of the decision, which was always going to be relatively temporary. Although Sterling has yet to recover. But it's crazy to talk about the effect of Brexit on the economy, good or bad, when it hasn't actually happened yet!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Bit weird to talk about any evidence at all of Britain being resilient to Brexit, when Britain is still a part of the EU.

There was always going to be some sort of shock in the immediate aftermath of the decision, which was always going to be relatively temporary. Although Sterling has yet to recover. But it's crazy to talk about the effect of Brexit on the economy, good or bad, when it hasn't actually happened yet!
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There were predictions made about what would happen in the immediate aftermath of the vote by the Bank of England among many others. I'm not sure why we can't talk about if the actual impact has been better or worse than what was predicted?
 
"You'll sell less prosecco":lol::lol::lol:
I can't believe this guy ended up with one of the most important political jobs in the UK.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
On the other hand.........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/16/angela-merkel-brexit-free-movement-eu
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“Were we to make an exception for the free movement of people with Britain, this would mean we would endanger principles of the whole internal market in the European Union, because everyone else will then want these exceptions,” Merkel told a meeting of the German employers’ association BDA.
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So....Merkel's now admitting that everyone else is unhappy with freedom of movement and wants rid of it.
 
Red Defence said:
So....Merkel's now admitting that everyone else is unhappy with freedom of movement and wants rid of it.
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I think that Merkel wants to avoid cherry picking through different deals, which is fair enough
 
Red Defence said:
So....Merkel's now admitting that everyone else is unhappy with freedom of movement and wants rid of it.
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Merkel is fully aware of the rise of anti-globalisation and a move back to nationalism. A desperation from many in the Western World to turn the clocks back 80 years to a much shitty time in our history.

Most governments are happy with freedom of movement and understand that it took tens of thousands of years since a small tribe left Africa for 28 nations to come together rather than trying to rip each other apart. Even the government that called the UK referendum were happy with the EU.

What Merkel also understands is that cherry picking for the UK would put immense pressure on all of the other governents across Europe and bleaker times would be ahead of everyone.
 
At least Boris' statement was rotted in some semblance of economics. If the tariffs agreed upon are too steep, the market will gradually shift to alternative sources. Moreover, many of the places we are most likely to consider future trade deals with are also popular wine exporters to the UK.

Which isn't to say that it sounds like a rather silly discussion between two senior politicians.



Pogue Mahone said:
Bit weird to talk about any evidence at all of Britain being resilient to Brexit, when Britain is still a part of the EU.

There was always going to be some sort of shock in the immediate aftermath of the decision, which was always going to be relatively temporary. Although Sterling has yet to recover. But it's crazy to talk about the effect of Brexit on the economy, good or bad, when it hasn't actually happened yet!
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But where is the immediate recession, the housing market crash, the government budgetary crisis, the exodus of companies and resultant mass unemployment?

Yes, Vote Leave had a bus which overstated the potential return for the NHS. Conversely, Remain overstated the consequences of the vote to sway the minds of the electorate.
 
Red Defence said:
So....Merkel's now admitting that everyone else is unhappy with freedom of movement and wants rid of it.
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She's is more or less saying that the EU would be willing to introduce the concessions made to Cameron ~1 year ago again to Mrs. May and let her try to sell that as "brexit is brexit" at home. With Boris Johnson currently running around Europe proclaiming that A is B and C never was a founding principle of the EU, and that his counterpart will sell less of D if he doesn't agree that A is B, it might work.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
But where is the immediate recession, the housing market crash, the government budgetary crisis, the exodus of companies and resultant mass unemployment?

Yes, Vote Leave had a bus which overstated the potential return for the NHS. Conversely, Remain overstated the consequences of the vote to sway the minds of the electorate.
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You can put that down to the omnishambles ever since the vote. The one and only upside of which is that nobody will be making any decisions about likely implications as nobody knows when and how Brexit is happening yet. Including the people tasked with implementing it! As and when that becomes clear you'll see businesses making the sort of decisions you were warned about. Meanwhile it's business as usual, for obvious reasons.
 
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