Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[NinjaFletch]

There was some things she could have done better. For example she could have avoided putting davis and boris in such powerful roles. The country needs and deserves better then them

Oh don't get me wrong, in general I think she's doing a terrible job, but on this one specific issue she's doing what she has to do which is suck up her pride and go begging.

 

[Red Defence]

She does

Ah well, seems it must take a non-arse kisser to recognise another non-arse kisser.

 

[Red Defence]

Well lets agree to disagree. Thatcher would have put her party in place and she would have done what she thought was good for the country. May is far from a thatcher

So how old were you then when Thatcher was PM?

 

[devilish]

Oh don't get me wrong, in general I think she's doing a terrible job, but on this one specific issue she's doing what she has to do which is suck up her pride and go begging.

The uk shouldn't beg. A strong pm would go to Brussels and clearly say that the uk wants a deal similar to Switzerland. Trade deals can be signed and while freedom of movement will remain Reforms on welfare benefits will make the uk less attractive to immigrants.

Now if the xenophobics want to go toe to toe in a generation election so be it. I am sure the tory, labor and snp can join forces to keep ukip at bay

 

[devilish]

Ah well, seems it must take a non-arse kisser to recognise another non-arse kisser.

Since when i kissed ass? Im probably one of the most insulted people in redcafe history

 

[NinjaFletch]

The uk shouldn't beg. A strong pm would go to Brussels and clearly say that the uk wants a deal similar to Switzerland. Trade deals can be signed and while freedom of movement will remain Reforms on welfare benefits will make the uk less attractive to immigrants.

Now if the xenophobics want to go toe to toe in a generation election so be it. I am sure the tory, labor and snp can join forces to keep ukip at bay

And if and when the EU say no to that?

She doesn't have to pursue these things hard or as a matter of priority, but it can't hurt to build bridges even if its little more than a contingency plan.

 

[devilish]

So how old were you then when Thatcher was PM?

I love history. For example We can sit and talk of the roman empire or ww2 for ages despite i didnt live in those times. They created things called books you know.

There again im noticing youre going personal and since thats a sign of someone losing a comment i will refrain from answering. Ive learnt long ago not to argue with fanboys

 

[devilish]

And if and when the EU say no to that?

She doesn't have to pursue these things hard or as a matter of priority, but it can't hurt to build bridges even if its little more than a contingency plan.

I was pretty much involved in politics in the past. Not British politics but in my country. Lets say that from the vibes I get from people who are still very involved in it, is, that freedom of movement is the major stumbling block for a deal. The EU seem to refuse to bulge to the UK request of an ad hoc deal without freedom of movement. The so called cherry picking deal which many people in Europe hate

If the UK can have decent access to the single market then it will be less dependent on trade deals from somewhere else. It won't be in a position of strength (no one can be in a position of strength against the US or China). However it would be in a less position of weakness

There again you're free to not agree with me as its nothing more then an educated guess build up by people who actually work and had worked in Brussels (really worked not like Farage)

 

[Red Defence]

I love history. For example We can sit and talk of the roman empire or ww2 for ages despite i didnt live in those times. They created things called books you know.

There again im noticing youre going personal and since thats a sign of someone losing a comment i will refrain from answering. Ive learnt long ago not to argue with fanboys

It was just that you sounded like you didn't know Thatcher that well, that's all.

 

[devilish]

It was just that you sounded like you didn't know Thatcher that well, that's all.

If you ask me, I was hoping that with Cameron, Boris and Gove out of the way, someone will take politics seriously. Instead the UK got a PM who gave the Brexiters three of the most delicate roles in British politics at one of the most delicate periods since WW2. That does sound as smart move politically wise as it provide these gentlemen with plenty of rope to hang themselves. However I was hoping that finally the Tory party would finally take responsibility of the country and take the necessary decisions needed

 

[NinjaFletch]

I was pretty much involved in politics in the past. Not British politics but in my country. Lets say that from the vibes I get from people who are still very involved in it, is, that freedom of movement is the major stumbling block for a deal. The EU seem to refuse to bulge to the UK request of an ad hoc deal without freedom of movement. The so called cherry picking deal which many people in Europe hate

If the UK can have decent access to the single market then it will be less dependent on trade deals from somewhere else. It won't be in a position of strength (no one can be in a position of strength against the US or China). However it would be in a less position of weakness

There again you're free to not agree with me as its nothing more then an educated guess build up by people who actually work and had worked in Brussels (really worked not like Farage)

Well Tusk has said as much in fairness, so its not a huge guess. The issue is whether its on the table for May or not, and because she's being so coy (or perhaps more likely doesn't actually know) it becomes a bit of a moot point until then.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Given that you both seem more comfortable talking to yourselves, or some avatar of Leaver which suits your preconceptions, i'm not sure that there is a great deal of point in continuing this.



Some days ago a poster asked how the referendum was reflected among constituencies, well this tweet from Change Britain breaks down the numbers:

It was me. I was wondering, given the different wards in parliament to the referendum, how the result would change in a free vote. As suspected, it would be even more leave.

 

[devilish]

Well Tusk has said as much in fairness, so its not a huge guess. The issue is whether its on the table for May or not, and because she's being so coy (or perhaps more likely doesn't actually know) it becomes a bit of a moot point until then.

Well i've heard that from people whom I doubt are within Tusk inner circle. No one in Europe wants to screw the Brits up. What they don't want is cherry picking. Which I think its fair enough. The EU offers a wide variety of deals from membership, to semi membership (EEA), to close collaboration (the Swiss model) right to a trade deal plus (ie like Turkey who works in the custom union) and a simple trade deal (ex Canada). Just choose an off the shelf option and stick to it.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

The uk shouldn't beg. A strong pm would go to Brussels and clearly say that the uk wants a deal similar to Switzerland. Trade deals can be signed and while freedom of movement will remain Reforms on welfare benefits will make the uk less attractive to immigrants.

Now if the xenophobics want to go toe to toe in a generation election so be it. I am sure the tory, labor and snp can join forces to keep ukip at bay

isn't that pretty much the deal cameron struck before the referendum, which the country as a whole universally mocked?

 

[devilish]

isn't that pretty much the deal cameron struck before the referendum, which the country as a whole universally mocked?

Moaners and populists will mock either way. If May manages to get access to the single market while controlling freedom of movement then they will criticise her for conceding the things she conceded to get that deal. Its how they work. Its up for the PM to put national interest ahead of everything and do what she's been asked to do ie govern

 

[AshfordLad]

isn't that pretty much the deal cameron struck before the referendum, which the country as a whole universally mocked?

To be fair, it was time bound and not all-encompassing in terms of benefits. If he had gotten a deal on the lines of what devilish mentions in his quote, a lot of tory right and labour left/greens would have taken it.

Also, the Swiss have the ability to do their own deals outside of the EU. If the UK can get such a deal they should take it without any consideration.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

The Economist | Negotiating Brexit: The way forward
http://www.economist.com/news/leade...ess-determine-what-brexit-means-job?frsc=dg|c

 

[jackofalltrades]

It seems Alain Juppe will close the UK border post at Calais if he wins the elections, an uncomfortable consequence of Brexit, he says. Now there's a surprise.

 

[Dan]

'There is no plan' for Brexit, leaked memo says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948

 

[Rightnr]

This must be the biggest 'no surprises there' moment since the referendum decision.

If it looks like they're clueless, if they seem like they're clueless, they are clueless. The government has so far been winging it Boris style where a lot of rhetoric and words come out but little concrete in terms of constructive plans.

You have to wonder how long this debacle can keep going on.

 

[Pexbo]

Projecting your image of Leavers, and those with a differing stance on immigration policy, certainly does seem to be all that matters to you. Unfortunately, my response did not conform with your prejudices.

Brexiteers will be far happier when the UK is operating a global immigration policy, and one which allows us to stem the increases of recent times. The EU immigration figure is totally disproportionate, its workers easier to replace over time.

You don't like foreign people do you?

I do, the more the merrier.

 

[Kentonio]

I hear the same kind of nonsense on my FB feed all the time, people who have never moved out of their home town and proudly don't know or care about the rest of the world proclaiming that everyone wants to come to the UK and that no matter what barriers we put up we'll just be able to cherry pick the best of the best. Given the noises coming from highly skilled foreign professionals in the UK currently, a lot of people are going to get a very nasty shock soon.

 

[devilish]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...minister-mary-mitchell-o-connor-a7416821.html

Dr Fox has led the Cabinet faction pushing for a hard Brexit, which would see the UK leave both the single market and the customs union, in order to strike trade deals with non-EU countries.

According to The Irish Times, Ms Mitchell O’Connor told the subcommittee that Dr Fox left her with the impression of a divorcing husband who wants to keep the family home and all other assets after the split.

He said he expected to maintain access to the single market, while introducing curbs on immigration – despite EU leaders insisting such a deal will not be possible.

And he is understood to have argued that, if access to the single market is refused, the EU would have to pay compensation to countries, such as South Korea, with which the EU has a free trade deal.

Compensation would have to be paid because the market for South Korea would shrink if Britain was no longer a part of it.

Ms Mitchell O’Connor’s comments are said to have provoked laughter from other Irish ministers, while reflecting concern about British expectations for the EU negotiations.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

So that's that, then.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

'There is no plan' for Brexit, leaked memo says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948

Most people knew this to be fair. It's easy to play on the fears of millions of voters by offering simplistic views and solutions to complex issues until you actually have to implement a plan to execute. 2016 can't end fast enough for me. It sucked.

 

[NinjaFletch]

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

So that's that, then.

Ah, do you remember the 30 minutes where Labour promised to be a proper opposition last weekend? That was good.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Most people knew this to be fair. It's easy to play on the fears of millions of voters by offering simplistic views and solutions to complex issues until you actually have to implement a plan to execute. 2016 can't end fast enough for me. It sucked.

Are you sure you're looking forward with hope for 2017?

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

Are you sure you're looking forward with hope for 2017?

Nah man...We're all fecked.

 

[Redlambs]

You don't like foreign people do you?

I do, the more the merrier.

I think therein lies the problem, and why people like the brexit/trump voters have ultimately won out. It's all well and good trying to see a big picture, and reading government statistics and all that, but there's a lot of people who feel genuinely affected by immigration and all it brings.

Calling racism is not the answer, education is. IMO.

 

[Sphaero]

Are you sure you're looking forward with hope for 2017?

Well, a lot will depend on you folks in April/May. I don´t even want to think what might happen if Le Pen wins the presidential election. With her views on the EU and the partnership with Germany, it might be the beginning of the end of the Union.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well, a lot will depend on you folks in April/May. I don´t even want to think what might happen if Le Pen wins the presidential election. With her views on the EU and the partnership with Germany, it might be the beginning of the end of the Union.

That hopefully will not happen. But in this crazy world we have currently anything seems possible.

 

[Bury Red]

I think therein lies the problem, and why people like the brexit/trump voters have ultimately won out. It's all well and good trying to see a big picture, and reading government statistics and all that, but there's a lot of people who feel genuinely affected by immigration and all it brings.

Calling racism is not the answer, education is. IMO.

How do you educate people who read and believe the lies printed by the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph?
How do you educate people who admit they are tired of listening to experts, of being told what they are allowed to say and think by people with higher qualifications?
How do you educate people who flatly refuse to acknowledge the facts when they are staring them in the face?

I know the left love a bit of self flagellation and like to feel that they're in some way to blame but I can't buy this crap that we're hearing from the Brexiteers and Trump supporters. If you don't call out racism and fascism where you see it then you are complicit to it's success. That it is clearly in the majority now is a worrying sign that education has already failed a great many people.

Yes, there's people who have a right to feel left behind, disenfranchised and abandoned by the well to do, the political elite and yes, the educated. But the simple fact is that they have been seduced by the same old lies about immigrants and foreigners that the far right have trotted out for centuries when it's generally the more centre right, capitalist parties that have favoured business over workers, allowed jobs to be outsourced, wages depressed and protections removed. The old left, the unionists and yes, the EU tried in vain to protect jobs and workers' rights and all the while the workers believed the promises of prosperity for all in a capitalist utopia and repeatedly reelected the very people who were worsening their lives.

To be honest, beyond the sarcastic notion of IQ testing for voters, I can't actually see an answer. Let's face it, the right wing have always had the better PR, the snappier dressers and the bulk of the media backing them. The only chance the left or the liberals have of touching power is either playing lapdog to the tories in a coalition or by becoming them as Blair did, old labour is just too scruffy, too school teachery and too pinko for the brainwashed electorate to vote for these days and has makes it worse by tearing itself apart in a frenzy of self loathing and self blame every time they are rejected.

Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it.

 

[sun_tzu]

Well, a lot will depend on you folks in April/May. I don´t even want to think what might happen if Le Pen wins the presidential election. With her views on the EU and the partnership with Germany, it might be the beginning of the end of the Union.

Actually her odds are 7/4... co certainly within the kind of brexit / trump ranges
I have come to the conclusion we are starting to devolve as a species

 

[Classical Mechanic]

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

So that's that, then.

"to do so would put us against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites, who have always had the British people at the back of the queue."

"While Labour supported remaining in the EU to protect workers’ rights, we cannot hide from the fact that too much of the EU also had aspects of the old model, putting the interests of big business over ordinary people,"

Tells you all that need to know what Corbyn and his cronies really think of the EU.

 

[Kentonio]

To be honest, beyond the sarcastic notion of IQ testing for voters, I can't actually see an answer.

I'm currently leaning towards a colony on another planet and leaving this place to the feck-tards.

 

[Sweet Square]

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

So that's that, then.

Who thought it was going to be any different ? There seems to be a percentage of people who are still hoping the result will be over turned, it's not going to happen.

"to do so would put us against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites, who have always had the British people at the back of the queue."

"While Labour supported remaining in the EU to protect workers’ rights, we cannot hide from the fact that too much of the EU also had aspects of the old model, putting the interests of big business over ordinary people,"

Tells you all that need to know what Corbyn and his cronies really think of the EU.

I think it was pretty clear during the campaign, the views of Corbyn - He doesn't really like the EU. Not sure why some our surprised now.

 

[sun_tzu]

"to do so would put us against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites, who have always had the British people at the back of the queue."

"While Labour supported remaining in the EU to protect workers’ rights, we cannot hide from the fact that too much of the EU also had aspects of the old model, putting the interests of big business over ordinary people,"

Tells you all that need to know what Corbyn and his cronies really think of the EU.

so a majority of labour party members vote for corbyn and his supporters say the whole party has to back that decision even if all polling shows he is actually pretty unpopular with labour voters in general and incredibly unpopular in the general electorate

yet when it comes to backing something that a majority of labour supporters (and members) voted for i.e. staying in the EU its time to switch sides...

on the plus side it can only hasten the inevitable split

 

[Abizzz]

I'm currently leaning towards a colony on another planet and leaving this place to the feck-tards.

Yeah i'm beginning to understand how sailing across an ocean in a tiny wooden vessel, for the slight chance that they might find land at the other end, was a viable option to the pilgrims.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

He doesn't really like the EU. Not sure why some our surprised now.

His official Twitter at the time said quite different.

 

[Stanley Road]

Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it

No-one will form a coalition with Wilders, they have said so already. So even if he gets the most votes the Govt will be formed from all the other parties, a proper mish mash.

I do however think the reason for the sudden rise to the top from people like him is simply the failure of the ignorant norm. The governments have had years to get the people onside and crazily think austerity and cutbacks is the way to go. So you get 'Anyone But Them' voters.

If they really and I mean really could not see this happening, then they should not be in charge. As PM of any country you are there to serve the people, easy peasy, what do the people want? What do the people feel? Are the people happy with their lot? No? ok you can have a double dose of the same. I mean c'mon, its not hard to see.

"The EU must reform" we hear from several bigwigs. Ok when? How? Whats the time scale? Why haven't you done this earlier. Ignorance pure ignorance. They don't listen, they've never listened, they don't care and they just don't know how. This is what you want right?