Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Yes I voted remain and I think I am more convinced now that I was right to do so but the principle of democracy is that you get a vote along with a lot of other people and if they outvote you then they get to do what they voted for which in this case is to leave the EU. I am not moaning about it so I am not a remoaner. I was a remain voter though.

Is this simple enough for you to understand so that we can move on?

So why call those who think Remain is a better idea than Leave remoaners, just because they disagree with the Leave campaign. They don't want the country to go down the toilet.
But it appears some people who voted remain are quite happy to accept any disasters that befall the UK because slightly more people voted to Leave than Remain
When would it be an appropriate time to start complaining. In another 40 years?

I mean the Brexiters are already moaning about Article 50 being ratified by parliament , you know -democracy
 
If there has to be a vote on triggering article 50 then that is what has to happen, I am saying that I don't think it will change a thing because either parliament passes the vote to allow May to trigger A50 or it doesn't. If it doesn't then I think May goes to the country and wins a massive majority and comes back and passes it and then triggers it, none of which will make a blind bit of difference to the deal we get in the end.

It is as simple as that, which make the leavers complaints strange.
 
I four policies were the Leave manifesto for most. This was further demonstrated by Boris' closing remarks during the biggest TV debate of the campaign. Moreover, Remain's apocalyptically predictions of the economy have also been shown to be suspect, and they too swung voters (took me a good hour on the phone to pull one friend of mine back from the brink).

It seems to me, that what is a workable Brexit for Remainers, amounts to very little in way of actual change in our relationship with the EU. More of a rebranding exercise, if anything.
I'm not sure there is a workable Brexit for remainers, certainly no more than there was a workable EU for Brexiters.

And I think it's quite a leap to equate claims of apocalyptic financial impact (which there is certainly a strong evidentiary base for already) with just completely making shit up about funding, legislative powers and immigrants.
 
Last edited:
Parliament elects the PM, if it doesn't support the PM anymore then they hold a vote of no confidence and if that is carried then he or she is no longer PM.

Parliament doesn't do the negotiation, the Govt which the PM selects does.

Before we can start negotiations we have to trigger article 50.

Its not that hard to follow but the remoaners can't seem to accept they lost the referendum and can't prevent the UK leaving the EU which will happen in due course.

Also there seems to be this idea that there is a soft brexit option despite Tusk repeatedly saying there isn't. The remoaners are fools in this regard, demanding a result which can't be achieved.
No, parliament is in the UK designed to be representative. In short, any constitutional act is debated and amended to reflect the opinions of the nation which is, in case you forget 48% of the vote and 62% of the eligible population not voting to leave. Once the act is agreed in parliament, it is then the job of government to negotiate how we leave against those principles.

That is British sovereignty. Checks and balances. Representation. Debate. Not dictat.
 
Its not that hard to follow but the remoaners can't seem to accept they lost the referendum and can't prevent the UK leaving the EU which will happen in due course.

Also there seems to be this idea that there is a soft brexit option despite Tusk repeatedly saying there isn't. The remoaners are fools in this regard, demanding a result which can't be achieved.

How many 'kin times, we can acknowledge we lost but still carry on protesting this madness in the hope that sense will be seen before Article 50 is triggered, it's our democratic right and in this instance I see it as a patriotic duty. Whether the percentage of the Brexit voters that are voting along racist and borderline fascist lines may only be 10 or 20% of the 17.1M (and I'd suggest it's way more than that) it would still be enough of a portion to have swung the vote. I cannot and will not live in a situation where I would just allow that to happen, if more people had stood up to the National Socialist party in Germany in the 1930s at an early stage then history might be very, very different but they didn't and Hitler through his 4 referendums turned a whole country and changed the face of European politics forever carrying out a genocide on a scale never before seen.

If there was never a soft Brexit option then why were the vast majority of Brexiters talking about how harmoniously we could live with a Norwegian or Swiss model both up to and since the referendum? What Tusk is saying is that there is no soft Brexit option that would not involve Freedom of Movement and the UK paying in more than it already does, something us remoaners pointed out all the way through this debacle. A hard Brexit will ruin our economy for decades to come and as more people become desperate how many more turn to the far right for answers, how long before the next referendum is on internment and deportation of all British muslims?

I can protest, I will protest, it's my democratic right and even my patriotic duty to do so and I will continue to do so until it becomes potentially dangerous to myself and my family at which point, feck you all, we're off for good and screw Britannia.
 
Not really.

They can put forward a vote of no confidence in the PM and get a new PM but that isn't likely. Everyone is getting all excited about a fight already decided by the referendum. We will have to trigger article 50 and we will be out of the EU and the deal we get will be the deal we get and Parliament had its chance to stop all this by voting down the referendum bill. They didn't they supported Cameron and they can't complain about it all now the result is in.

I am not a constitutional lawyer; I am just trying to outline the controversy. What you descripe is mostly irrelevant to this question.
 
Before we can start negotiations we have to trigger article 50.

Its not that hard to follow but the remoaners can't seem to accept they lost the referendum and can't prevent the UK leaving the EU which will happen in due course.

Also there seems to be this idea that there is a soft brexit option despite Tusk repeatedly saying there isn't. The remoaners are fools in this regard, demanding a result which can't be achieved.

Every eu leader and his dog had said tht its not possible to have unrestricted access to the single market without freedom of movement so what makes you think that theres a soft brexit option?
 
Every eu leader and his dog had said tht its not possible to have unrestricted access to the single market without freedom of movement so what makes you think that theres a soft brexit option?
There is a soft brexit option if we accept freedom of movement, despite chronic amnesia or myopia among the brexiteers there was no option on freedom of movement on the ballot. This is what parliament needs to debate. Brexit without access to the common market would be a disaster for the UK economy, we know what the price of that access is so does parliament go for the soft option to minimise damage to the economy or the hard option to appease the far right element of the Brexit voters?
 
How many 'kin times, we can acknowledge we lost but still carry on protesting this madness in the hope that sense will be seen before Article 50 is triggered, it's our democratic right and in this instance I see it as a patriotic duty. Whether the percentage of the Brexit voters that are voting along racist and borderline fascist lines may only be 10 or 20% of the 17.1M (and I'd suggest it's way more than that) it would still be enough of a portion to have swung the vote. I cannot and will not live in a situation where I would just allow that to happen, if more people had stood up to the National Socialist party in Germany in the 1930s at an early stage then history might be very, very different but they didn't and Hitler through his 4 referendums turned a whole country and changed the face of European politics forever carrying out a genocide on a scale never before seen.

If there was never a soft Brexit option then why were the vast majority of Brexiters talking about how harmoniously we could live with a Norwegian or Swiss model both up to and since the referendum? What Tusk is saying is that there is no soft Brexit option that would not involve Freedom of Movement and the UK paying in more than it already does, something us remoaners pointed out all the way through this debacle. A hard Brexit will ruin our economy for decades to come and as more people become desperate how many more turn to the far right for answers, how long before the next referendum is on internment and deportation of all British muslims?

I can protest, I will protest, it's my democratic right and even my patriotic duty to do so and I will continue to do so until it becomes potentially dangerous to myself and my family at which point, feck you all, we're off for good and screw Britannia.

:lol:

Rant
 
A good take on the hysteria following the court ruling.

Courts, democracy and Brexit: Some home truths

There are three aspects of the High Court’s ruling in Miller — the implication of which is that Article 50 cannot be triggered without an Act of Parliament — that are significant. The first is whether the High Court was right as a matter of law. I have already written briefly about the legal merits of the judgment, and will comment further on that — in a piece I am writing with a colleague — in due course. The second is the political implications of the judgment for the future of the Brexit process, assuming it is not overturned by the Supreme Court. I spoke about this in my Cambridge University Brexit Week talk and will comment on it further in an interview to be broadcast on Law in Action on BBC Radio 4 next week.

The third aspect of Miller — with which I am concerned here — is the political and media backlash that the Court’s judgment has elicited. The discussion of the judgment in the press has been nothing short of extraordinary. The judges who decided the case have been lambasted for — among many other things — acting undemocratically. The nadir is perhaps the front page of the Daily Mail published the day after the judgment, describing the judges as the ‘enemies of the people’ and referring to ‘fury over “out of touch” judges’ who defied popular will. When criticism is as misguided as this, it is difficult to know where to begin. But let me try.

The question that the court was asked to — and did — examine was a legal question. The question was whether, under the UK’s constitutional arrangements, the process for exiting the EU can be triggered by the Government, or whether only Parliament can authorise this. That is a question of law — a question about where legal power resides. The court concluded that it resides in Parliament. It happens to be the case that I am sceptical about that view, and that I consider the contrary view — that the Government already has legal authority to trigger Article 50 — to be the better one. But the legal merits of the court’s judgment are nothing to the point, for they form no part of the astonishing criticism levelled at the judges by sections of the British press. Rather, those criticisms are prior to any consideration of the legal niceties. They amount to the assertion that by adjudicating on this matter, judges are subverting democracy by frustrating the will of the people. For three reasons, that criticism is plain wrong.

First, there is nothing in the Miller judgment that prevents Brexit from taking place. The question put to the court had nothing to do with whether Brexit should occur. Rather, the question before the court was about the process by which Brexit can be initiated. The court has decided that that process can only be begun by, or with the permission of, Parliament. But that in no way implies that the court is seeking to prevent Brexit from taking place. The court was absolutely clear about this: ‘Nothing we say has any bearing on the question of the merits or demerits of a withdrawal by the United Kingdom from the European Union; nor does it have any bearing on government policy, because government policy is not law. The policy to be applied by the executive government and the merits or demerits of withdrawal are matters of political judgement to be resolved through the political process.’

Second, the argument that judges should not adjudicate on this matter because they are — or because so adjudicating — is ‘undemocratic’ is constitutionally illiterate. It is true that judges in the UK are not elected. But that does not mean that the decisions they take about the lawfulness of (actual or proposed) Government action are undemocratic — even if those decisions about the law relate to matters whose substance is politically contentious. Our courts do not enjoy or claim legitimacy because they are elected. Rather, their legitimacy derives from their independence, the requirement that they justify their decisions by reference to legal standards, and their resultant capacity to supply judgments that are objective and politically neutral. Far from threatening democracy, independent and impartial courts are a precondition of democracy.

Third, there is an obvious and delicious irony — yet one that is lost on some — in the argument that British judges are somehow overstepping the mark by ruling on the issue in this case. A large part of the Leave campaign during the EU referendum was premised on the notion that control should be wrested from ‘unelected bureaucrats’ in Brussels and restored to a sovereign UK Parliament — and, equally, that the influence exerted by ‘foreign’ judges on the EU Court of Justice should be returned to British courts. Indeed, when he was Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor, Chris Grayling MP waxed lyrical about making ‘our Supreme Court … supreme again’. (That, admittedly, was in respect of his objection to the influence wielded by the European Court of Human Rights, but the general point stands.)

Looked at in this way, the position occupied by Brexiteers who castigate the Miller judgment begins to look decidedly uncomfortable. After all, a British (or, more accurately, English) court has determined — by applying the constitutional law of the United Kingdom — that the UK Parliament is entitled to call the shots in this context. The Brexiteers’ mantra — the speciousness of which I pointed out in an article in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung — was ‘vote leave, take control’. At the core of that argument was the case for restoring the sovereignty of the UK Parliament and the perceived strengthening of democracy that that would entail. Against that background, if membership of the European Union was objectionable because it amounted to an affront to British democracy, it is hard to see why the High Court’s judgment in Miller is anything other than the handmaiden of such democracy.

To close, I can think of nothing more apposite than the words recently tweeted by Gary Lineker: ‘The front page attacks on the 3 judges for basically just doing their job is scary. This is fast becoming a dystopian land.’ I could not have put it better myself.
 
How many 'kin times, we can acknowledge we lost but still carry on protesting this madness in the hope that sense will be seen before Article 50 is triggered, it's our democratic right and in this instance I see it as a patriotic duty. Whether the percentage of the Brexit voters that are voting along racist and borderline fascist lines may only be 10 or 20% of the 17.1M (and I'd suggest it's way more than that) it would still be enough of a portion to have swung the vote. I cannot and will not live in a situation where I would just allow that to happen, if more people had stood up to the National Socialist party in Germany in the 1930s at an early stage then history might be very, very different but they didn't and Hitler through his 4 referendums turned a whole country and changed the face of European politics forever carrying out a genocide on a scale never before seen.

If there was never a soft Brexit option then why were the vast majority of Brexiters talking about how harmoniously we could live with a Norwegian or Swiss model both up to and since the referendum? What Tusk is saying is that there is no soft Brexit option that would not involve Freedom of Movement and the UK paying in more than it already does, something us remoaners pointed out all the way through this debacle. A hard Brexit will ruin our economy for decades to come and as more people become desperate how many more turn to the far right for answers, how long before the next referendum is on internment and deportation of all British muslims?

I can protest, I will protest, it's my democratic right and even my patriotic duty to do so and I will continue to do so until it becomes potentially dangerous to myself and my family at which point, feck you all, we're off for good and screw Britannia.

As many as you like because voting Brexit isn't like voting for Hitler and I think that is obvious not least to the generation which was involved in stopping him which voted mainly Brexit.

Also, at issue is whether we leave the EU or not that is what the referendum was supposed to decide and now you want to change your mind about what was voted on because you lost. If you can turn round afterwards and decide not to trigger A50 then what was the point in the whole exercise?

We are not talking about types of Brexit.
 
There is a soft brexit option if we accept freedom of movement, despite chronic amnesia or myopia among the brexiteers there was no option on freedom of movement on the ballot. This is what parliament needs to debate. Brexit without access to the common market would be a disaster for the UK economy, we know what the price of that access is so does parliament go for the soft option to minimise damage to the economy or the hard option to appease the far right element of the Brexit voters?

It wont happen as debate reveal intention and most brexiters dont want their intentions for brexit to be revealed
 
Sit back and laugh comfortable in Holland all you like Stan. Are you telling me you'd just let the Tories, UKIP and Britain First roll in Britain's first fascist government and stand idly by doing nothing if you still lived here? Yet you still claim to be a socialist.
 
Every eu leader and his dog had said tht its not possible to have unrestricted access to the single market without freedom of movement so what makes you think that theres a soft brexit option?

Read the post again because I said the exact opposite yet the remoaners on here seem to think differently.
 
As many as you like because voting Brexit isn't like voting for Hitler and I think that is obvious not least to the generation which was involved in stopping him which voted mainly Brexit.

Also, at issue is whether we leave the EU or not that is what the referendum was supposed to decide and now you want to change your mind about what was voted on because you lost. If you can turn round afterwards and decide not to trigger A50 then what was the point in the whole exercise?

We are not talking about types of Brexit.

My mother is 95 and she was 12 when Hitler came to power, don't think maths is your strong point.
 
As many as you like because voting Brexit isn't like voting for Hitler and I think that is obvious not least to the generation which was involved in stopping him which voted mainly Brexit.

How many people over 89 do you think voted Brexit, because that's the generation that fought Hitler. The generation that followed in the peace created by that group may well have formed a sizeable part of the leave vote but that's got nothing to do with it, that their xenophobia grew out of post WWII austerity and the subsequent immigration that rebuilt the country is disappointing but not surprising to anyone that grew up with Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson, Mind Your Language and Alf Garnett on TV. Voting Brexit may not have been a vote for Hitler but surely you can see the rising tide of the far right when national newspapers are declaring High Court judges traitors for daring to uphold the law.

Also, at issue is whether we leave the EU or not that is what the referendum was supposed to decide and now you want to change your mind about what was voted on because you lost. If you can turn round afterwards and decide not to trigger A50 then what was the point in the whole exercise?

We are not talking about types of Brexit.

I would love to see the whole thing binned, it was only an advisory referendum after all and one that was atrociously prepared, campaigned and run by both sides. That it will determine the future of this country for much of the rest of my life terrifies me. Putting the vote to parliament though is not about overturning the referendum, it's about finding the best route to Brexit for the country in the eyes of our democratically elected representatives as you keep reminding us. If we have to leave then the question of hard vs soft Brexit will be the centre of that debate. That had Brexit is ruinous and soft Brexit is worse than the status quo were we to remain in the EU is clear and any sensible nation would welcome their politicians considering that maybe ignoring the referendum is the only sensible option. Expecting sense from parliament is like expecting sense from the majority of the UK though.
 
Sit back and laugh comfortable in Holland all you like Stan. Are you telling me you'd just let the Tories, UKIP and Britain First roll in Britain's first fascist government and stand idly by doing nothing if you still lived here? Yet you still claim to be a socialist.

A socialist without the right to vote anywhere i might add. Not laughing at you but where you find time and energy to pen such long rants.

Wilders pvv party are top of the charts here and not much i can do if he is voted in.

However, i do want to see anyone that voted cameroon in, knowing full well what could happen, suffer a great deal. I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for and by gove they got it.

I have zero, fecking zero sympathy for them. its so hypocritical. the fact that some good people will suffer is a shame but dont blame the 52%, blame tory voters.
 
A socialist without the right to vote anywhere i might add. Not laughing at you but where you find time and energy to pen such long rants.

Wilders pvv party are top of the charts here and not much i can do if he is voted in.

However, i do want to see anyone that voted cameroon in, knowing full well what could happen, suffer a great deal. I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for and by gove they got it.

I have zero, fecking zero sympathy for them. its so hypocritical. the fact that some good people will suffer is a shame but dont blame the 52%, blame tory voters.

If people suffer from Brexit, don't blame the people who voted for Brexit, blame the people who voted Tory instead? That makes no sense.
 
If people suffer from Brexit, don't blame the people who voted for Brexit, blame the people who voted Tory instead? That makes no sense.

It kind of make sense because if I'm not mistaken, Stan blames Cameron for his actions as PM and his use of Brexit as a political tool. So the people who voted for Tory and supported Cameron are the main culprit.
 
It kind of make sense because if I'm not mistaken, Stan blames Cameron for his actions as PM and his use of Brexit as a political tool. So the people who voted for Tory and supported Cameron are the main culprit.

The people who voted Cameron are to blame for the referendum happening in the first place. They didn't force people to vote to leave though.

People who voted leave can't just wash their hands of all responsibility if it goes wrong. You're responsible for your vote. If you make a stupid decision with that vote, it's your stupid decision, nobody else's.

Basically the position SR outlined serves to divert blame away from Brexit-supporting non-Tories, which he just so happens to be.
 
Yes but he didn't make them vote for Brexit

But he knew that people were angry and confused, he knew that the insular nature of british people could have led to this, he knew that his "friends" were lying, dishonest scumbags.

Cameron is the number one culprit, he was willing to put his country in a tough spot for his own potential benefit.
 
Thats about as irrelevant as it gets.

Book a holiday in typhoon season and hope it stays dry

As I said before, Cameron didn't think he'd lose the referendum, he did because not only did Tory voters vote for Brexit but a large portion of Labour voters did as well. Brexit was more about age and education than party politics
 
But he knew that people were angry and confused, he knew that the insular nature of british people could have led to this, he knew that his "friends" were lying, dishonest scumbags.

Cameron is the number one culprit, he was willing to put his country in a tough spot for his own potential benefit.

I don't disagree but what would have happened if Cameron didn't hold a referendum or give a chance to hold a referendum
 
A socialist without the right to vote anywhere i might add. Not laughing at you but where you find time and energy to pen such long rants.

It doesn't take me long, it's been bubbling just under the surface since June anyway and what better is there to do? I'd only be finishing a draft proposal for the reduction of water loss on Goa's irrigation canals if I weren't procrastinating in here anyway.

Wilders pvv party are top of the charts here and not much i can do if he is voted in.

You're big enough and ugly enough to stand toe to toe with the scum when they take to the streets Stan. As Edmund Burke put it: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".
 
Thats about as irrelevant as it gets.

Book a holiday in typhoon season and hope it stays dry

It's more like a burglar blaming the homeowner for leaving their door unlocked. Yes it was stupid on their part but the burglar is still responsible for whatever got stolen.
 
The people who voted Cameron are to blame for the referendum happening in the first place. They didn't force people to vote to leave though.

People who voted leave can't just wash their hands of all responsibility if it goes wrong. You're responsible for your vote. If you make a stupid decision with that vote, it's your stupid decision, nobody else's.

Basically the position SR outlined serves to divert blame away from Brexit-supporting non-Tories, which he just so happens to be.

I don't think Stan is diverting anything, a few months ago I asked him why he was for Brexit and his answer was that it was better to try a brexit than do nothing.(He can correct me if I misunderstood)

His position is the reason why, I was against a referendum, I have seen to many elections where people can't see past their anger and will answer to a different question than the one they were asked. Voters are stupid and very often it's best to not even bother to ask them a question because not only they don't understand it but they don't even want to understand it.

In France, we did it for the EU constitution referendum, people voted against Chirac instead of for or against the constitution, fortunately we knew that only the parliament opinion was important.
 
I don't disagree but what would have happened if Cameron didn't hold a referendum or give a chance to hold a referendum

Nothing, I guess. People would have been at home moaning about Cameron and Stan would have been boring his wife to death with the sad state of politics and the absence of change.:D
 
But he knew that people were angry and confused, he knew that the insular nature of british people could have led to this, he knew that his "friends" were lying, dishonest scumbags.

Cameron is the number one culprit, he was willing to put his country in a tough spot for his own potential benefit.

It's one thing for you to blame Cameron for giving angry and confused people the opportunity to make a poor decision. It's another thing when the angry and confused people themselves start blaming Cameron for giving them the opportunity to make a poor decision.

"It's Cameron's fault for giving me a vote. Once he did I really had no choice but to pick the worst possible option available to me and then demand the government follow through on it. Blame him."
 
Nothing, I guess. People would have been at home moaning about Cameron and Stan would have been boring his wife to death with the sad state of politics and the absence of change.:D

Probably, if the UK leave there will certainly be a change, but usually if you want a change , you would want a change for the better
 
How many people over 89 do you think voted Brexit, because that's the generation that fought Hitler. The generation that followed in the peace created by that group may well have formed a sizeable part of the leave vote but that's got nothing to do with it, that their xenophobia grew out of post WWII austerity and the subsequent immigration that rebuilt the country is disappointing but not surprising to anyone that grew up with Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson, Mind Your Language and Alf Garnett on TV. Voting Brexit may not have been a vote for Hitler but surely you can see the rising tide of the far right when national newspapers are declaring High Court judges traitors for daring to uphold the law.



I would love to see the whole thing binned, it was only an advisory referendum after all and one that was atrociously prepared, campaigned and run by both sides. That it will determine the future of this country for much of the rest of my life terrifies me. Putting the vote to parliament though is not about overturning the referendum, it's about finding the best route to Brexit for the country in the eyes of our democratically elected representatives as you keep reminding us. If we have to leave then the question of hard vs soft Brexit will be the centre of that debate. That had Brexit is ruinous and soft Brexit is worse than the status quo were we to remain in the EU is clear and any sensible nation would welcome their politicians considering that maybe ignoring the referendum is the only sensible option. Expecting sense from parliament is like expecting sense from the majority of the UK though.

It wouldn't have been a very large percentage of them voting brexit if it was the same as voting for Hitler. Which it wasn't. Which is why they mostly voted leave.

We can't find any route to Brexit without triggering A50 first.
 
Probably, if the UK leave there will certainly be a change, but usually if you want a change , you would want a change for the better

Not necessarily, I worked for a political party(UDI) and people only wants promises and simple straight convictions. They don't care about pragmatism, they don't care about common sense and they don't want honesty.

They are after catch phrases, finger pointing and easy deluded solutions. As long as it sounds nice, they are behind it.
 
It wouldn't have been a very large percentage of them voting brexit if it was the same as voting for Hitler. Which it wasn't. Which is why they mostly voted leave.

We can't find any route to Brexit without triggering A50 first.
I think you're deliberately missing the point now.