Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
JPRouve said:
If you allow me the leave campaign wanted "To leave the EU because they wanted take back control of your borders and make your own laws". And the absence of link between the EU and the whishes of the leavers make the mandate unclear.
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Huh? the EU cant stop us leaving, making our own laws and controlling our own borders.... where it becomes messy is if you want to deal with the EU you have to accept some of their laws and terms.... and we financially need to deal with the EU.

so the Mandate was very clear... what was never made clear was how they intended to achieve that mandate while keeping the country prosperous..... hence this mess
 
Its such a shame that there's no opposition to the Tory party at the moment.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
Huh? the EU cant stop us leaving, making our own laws and controlling our own borders.... where it becomes messy is if you want to deal with the EU you have to accept some of their laws and terms.... and we financially need to deal with the EU.

so the Mandate was very clear... what was never made clear was how they intended to achieve that mandate while keeping the country prosperous..... hence this mess
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I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

The UK dont deal with the EU, they are member of it, they are member of the EU executive, they participated to the creation of the laws and terms that you define as "their" the UK are included in the "their".

The Uk never lost control of their borders and they make their own laws, so the mandate is already achieved.
 
Untied said:
I have yet to see a coherent argument from a Leaver as to why the court ruling is a bad thing. Yet according to YouGov that is the view held by the majority of the population including a decent percentage of Remainers.

Are people really that stupid?*

* Yes. Yes they are.
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I have yet to see a coherent argument why Leavers wanted to leave
 
JPRouve said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

The UK dont deal with the EU, they are member of it, they are member of the EU executive, they participated to the creation of the laws and terms that you define as "their" the UK are included in the "their".
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i was speaking as if we left the EU but still wanted trade relationships.
 
Damien said:
Unsurprisingly the papers you'd expect to lose their shit did.

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Those papers 'didnt lose their shit', they are continuing to push Murdoch's agenda for influence over UK affairs, as they have been doing for years now.
 
devilish said:
Its such a shame that there's no opposition to the Tory party at the moment.
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I have a cunning plan, how do we get staunch Labour voters to vote for the Tory party in the 2015 General Election .....
Don't worry, we'll easily win the election, destroy the Labour Party but there won't be enough people voting to Leave to worry about , it's all under control. ..... ooops
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I have a cunning plan, how do we get staunch Labour voters to vote for the Tory party in the 2015 General Election .....
Don't worry, we'll easily win the election, destroy the Labour Party but there won't be enough people voting to Leave to worry about , it's all under control. ..... ooops
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Worth noting that the majority of leave voters, both by numbers and percentage of the leave vote within the party, were Tories.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
i was speaking as if we left the EU but still wanted trade relationships.
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It's even worse then, because the EU doesn't control the borders of EU members let alone non-EU members and doesn't make laws for anyone since every EU directives are checked and approved by each government through the EU council and eventually the EU parliament.

So you are left with leave the EU and nothing else, so @Bury Red is right. It was a straight and vanilla choice between "Leave" and "Remain", without particular reason or even superficial plan.
 
JPRouve said:
It's even worse then, because the EU doesn't control the borders of EU members let alone non-EU members and doesn't make laws for anyone since every EU directives are checked and approved by each government through the EU council and eventually the EU parliament.

So you are left with leave the EU and nothing else, so @Bury Red is right. It was a straight and vanilla choice between "Leave" and "Remain", without particular reason or even superficial plan.
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i don't really get what you want me to say? Britain currently has no legal right to stop anyone who wants to come an live here from the EU, and can't change that unless the EU agrees to change it, so weather your in favour of free movement or against it saying it currently has control of its borders isn't true.

But i agree it was a straight vanilla choice, and completely agree that they way forward should of been set out in advance of the referendum....... but that doesn't change the reason why people voted out which was very obviously " leave the EU, take control of our borders and make our own laws." whether you agree with that, or agree it was necessary thats why people voted out and that was clearly what the mandate was.
 
Crossie said:
@Nytram Shakes
I'd like to add on JP's post that not only can directive and regulation draft texts be commented on by every Peter, Paul and Mary; you can observe who voted which way on VoteWatch.org, e.g. http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-votes.html .

Some British people may be surprised to discover how their MP voted in the Council or their representatives in the European Parliament.
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you seem to think im arguing people are right to think we need to control all our laws from parliament..... i don't, i personally think for the most part the Brussels does a better job then westminster...... but me feeling that doesn't change the fact that alot of people disagree and want all our laws decided in this country and that combined with the obvious unhappiness with free movement lead people to vote out.

Im not debating whether that vote was right or wrong, and i 100% agree that the way the vote was handled was stupid with no plan to go forward, but that still doesn't change the fact that the obvious mandate was to leave the EU control our borders and write all our laws in this county.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
you seem to think im arguing people are right to think we need to control all our laws from parliament..... i don't, i personally think for the most part the Brussels does a better job then westminster...... but me feeling that doesn't change the fact that alot of people disagree and want all our laws decided in this country and that combined with the obvious unhappiness with free movement lead people to vote out.

Im not debating whether that vote was right or wrong, and i 100% agree that the way the vote was handled was stupid with no plan to go forward, but that still doesn't change the fact that the obvious mandate was to leave the EU control our borders and write all our laws in this county.
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Right, but that people wrongly assume(d) that the EU imposes laws now without the UKs voice and won't do once they are out is cringeworthy; unless your ties will be even looser than the ones between the EU and Switzerland, and even Switzerland had to accept freedom of movement of people.

My point by posting the link is that a) the EU is much more transparent than Leavers portray it and b) that it was often Cameron or other British MPs and/or British Tory MEPs who voted against policies that e.g would have protected working rights, something which is conveniently ignored by fairy tale tellers; it would undermine the fiction that all evil comes from the EU.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
i don't really get what you want me to say? Britain currently has no legal right to stop anyone who wants to come an live here from the EU, and can't change that unless the EU agrees to change it, so weather your in favour of free movement or against it saying it currently has control of its borders isn't true.

But i agree it was a straight vanilla choice, and completely agree that they way forward should of been set out in advance of the referendum....... but that doesn't change the reason why people voted out which was very obviously " leave the EU, take control of our borders and make our own laws." whether you agree with that, or agree it was necessary thats why people voted out and that was clearly what the mandate was.
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The problem for me is that your politicians decided to make FoM looks as it looks today, they could have vetoed it, they could have proposed a different type of FoM but they didn't because there is nothing wrong with the current rule. They also could have not signed the Lisbon Treaty, no one forced them to do that.

And it needs to be remembered that FoM only really works when the immigrant finds a job that allows him to live in good conditions since they can be expelled otherwise, so only immigrants who are able to finance their own existence and are actively making the UK richer, have the right to stay.
 
Crossie said:
Right, but that people wrongly assume(d) that the EU imposes laws now without the UKs voice and won't do once they are out is cringeworthy; unless your ties will be even looser than the ones between the EU and Switzerland, and even Switzerland had to accept freedom of movement of people.

My point by posting the link is that a) the EU is much more transparent than Leavers portray it and b) that it was often Cameron or other British MPs and/or British Tory MEPs who voted against policies that e.g would have protected working rights, something which is conveniently ignored by fairy tale tellers; it would undermine the fiction that all evil comes from the EU.
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Honestly I just think wer trying to nip pick issues with the result ..... people voted they way they did because they wanted control of immigration and all our laws made in the country.

I'd agree with you that the EU isn't as the evil empire that a lot of the leave campaigners portrayed, but neither is is the shinning beacon of hope that some of the stay campaigners portrayed. same with the supporters of both campaigners, people, both sides resorted to name calling frankly both sides acting likes utter scum and I think anyone who thinks one side acted better thenin this debate is looking at their side with rose tinted glasses!

But like I say I agree with you that the EUparliament has done a lot of good (and I personally trust them more with most things then I do our own parliament) ....... and the good they have done was pointed out again and again during the campaign ..... but frankly people didnt give a shit..... because any fool going into this campaign should of realised a slogan of vote remain to save your workers rights and jobs was going to be laughed out of the park with current treatment of the working glass ..... they answered very clearly "what rights I'm on a zero hour contract so hardly have a job, now what are you going to do about immigration so their is less competition for jobs" to which the remain campaign had no answer and so lost.

Now whether you agree with that point of view doesn't matter that's what happened. Nip picking won't change anything unfortunately where in this mess..... and their is no easy way out.
 
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JPRouve said:
The problem for me is that your politicians decided to make FoM looks as it looks today, they could have vetoed it, they could have proposed a different type of FoM but they didn't because there is nothing wrong with the current rule. They also could have not signed the Lisbon Treaty, no one forced them to do that.

And it needs to be remembered that FoM only really works when the immigrant finds a job that allows him to live in good conditions since they can be expelled otherwise, so only immigrants who are able to finance their own existence and are actively making the UK richer, have the right to stay.
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they could of vetoed it but they didn't ...... and what happened at the referendum was people saying we don't agree with that decision.
 
JPRouve said:
The problem for me is that your politicians decided to make FoM looks as it looks today, they could have vetoed it, they could have proposed a different type of FoM but they didn't because there is nothing wrong with the current rule. They also could have not signed the Lisbon Treaty, no one forced them to do that.

And it needs to be remembered that FoM only really works when the immigrant finds a job that allows him to live in good conditions since they can be expelled otherwise, so only immigrants who are able to finance their own existence and are actively making the UK richer, have the right to stay.
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Was watching a programme a few months ago where an EU immigrant, with a wife and baby, went to the council for help with housing because they couldn't afford their rent. The woman dealing with them found out they were entitled to claim £1200 a month in benefits. Doubt they were actively making the UK richer.
 
Which groups of immigrants are Leavers expecting to be able to turn away post Brexit that they couldn't before?
 
Red Defence said:
Was watching a programme a few months ago where an EU immigrant, with a wife and baby, went to the council for help with housing because they couldn't afford their rent. The woman dealing with them found out they were entitled to claim £1200 a month in benefits. Doubt they were actively making the UK richer.
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That's the choice of the UK, they can expell people in that case. Belgium have been criticized by human right activist for doing it quite massively.
 
Red Defence said:
Was watching a programme a few months ago where an EU immigrant, with a wife and baby, went to the council for help with housing because they couldn't afford their rent. The woman dealing with them found out they were entitled to claim £1200 a month in benefits. Doubt they were actively making the UK richer.
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Yet every study has found that overall they bring in considerably more money to the economy than they cost. So why does an occasional exception hurt anyone, when the overall picture is overwhelmingly positive?
 
Kentonio said:
Yet every study has found that overall they bring in considerably more money to the economy than they cost. So why does an occasional exception hurt anyone, when the overall picture is overwhelmingly positive?
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I'm not aware that I said it was hurting anyone. It was a response to a post that implied we expelled EU immigrants if they couldn't finance their own existence.
 
Red Defence said:
I'm not aware that I said it was hurting anyone. It was a response to a post that implied we expelled EU immigrants if they couldn't finance their own existence.
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I didn't implied that the UK expelled EU immigrants, I said that they have the right to do it.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
But like I say I agree with you that the will parliament has done a lot of good (and personal trust them more with most things then I do our own parliament) ....... and it was pointed out again and again during the campaign ..... but frankly people didnt give a shit..... because any fool going into this campaign should of realised a slogan of vote remain to save your workers rights and jobs was going to be laughed out of the park with current treatment of the working glass ..... they answered very clearly "what rights I'm on a zero hour contract so hardly have a job, now what are you going to do about immigration so their is less competition for jobs" to which the remain campaign had no answer and so lost.

Now whether you agree with that point of view doesn't matter that's what happened. Nip picking won't change anything unfortunately where in this mess..... and their is no easy way out.
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I found the amount of blatant lies by the Leave Campaign shocking to be honest, because it showed that many UK citizens don't have a fecking clue and can be easily manipulated. I don't remember lies from Remain, just - perhaps overblown, perhaps accurate - estimations. I find it also shocking how these lies were forgiven once they became obvious lies (NHS funding being just the most prominent one).

Most UK immigrants fill needs the UK can't meet themselves. (I have friends in the UK who would never hire a British handyman again because in their experince, they are slow, lazy, incompetent and overcharge.) And the zero working hour contract is an invention of the UK, not the EU. If a UK citizen is dumb enough to not know who is responsible for their poor conditions and poor protections, for all the benefit cuts and whatnot, they deserve to be in such dire situations. It's all out there but I guess many of these people find it hard to think for themselves rather than just believing the lies the Murdoch empire is feeding them with.
 
Crossie said:
I found the amount of blatant lies by the Leave Campaign shocking to be honest, because it showed that many UK citizens don't have a fecking clue and can be easily manipulated. I don't remember lies from Remain, just - perhaps overblown, perhaps accurate - estimations. I find it also shocking how these lies were forgiven once they became obvious lies (NHS funding being just the most prominent one).

Most UK immigrants fill needs the UK can't meet themselves. (I have friends in the UK who would never hire a British handyman again because in their experince, they are slow, lazy, incompetent and overcharge.) And the zero working hour contract is an invention of the UK, not the EU. If a UK citizen is dumb enough to not know who is responsible for their poor conditions and poor protections, for all the benefit cuts and whatnot, they deserve to be in such dire situations. It's all out there but I guess many of these people find it hard to think for themselves rather than just believing the lies the Murdoch empire is feeding them with.
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Well I'd say to your friend I recently hired a polish plumber and he fecked it up royally and had to get English plumber to sort it out! ..... does that mean all English plumbers are great and all polish Ones shite? Course not! My experience you get lazy people from every country.... thinking anything else is just boallax and fairly racist.

Anyway I give up Im starting to remember why started avoiding this thread now
 
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"I suggest Mr Johnson should buy a cake, eat it and see what's left" Donald Tusk :drool:
 
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horsechoker said:
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...referendum-racist-incidents-politicians-media

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/campaign-bigotry-racist-britain-leave-brexit

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/27/media-calls-ban-old-people-voting-brexit-vote/ (Yes I know it's Breitbart but see the tweets inside calling for old people to lose the vote)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-says-leading-asylum-campaigner-a7102456.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...question-was-the-brexit-vote-based-on-racism/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...e-brexit-debate-has-made-britain-more-racist/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nd-bigots-directing-parts-of-the-brexit-camp/


The bold I was talking about on here, there was a post calling for people who voted leave on the Caf to be named and shamed, one person actually did post the names of people who did vote leave on here.

Those were what I could find in just a few minutes.
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So you've had one or two nut jobs in a group of people who can be quite emotional and over dramatic (see some of the threads on Mourinho on here) calling for Leave voters to be named? To what effect?


The racist thing-

So from what you've found, the 1st article does not say that all Brexiters are racist. Neither does the 2nd article (in fact, it explicitly says so). The Rowling article says that racism was part of the leave campaign, not the entirety. Only the 2nd WaPo article and the asylum seeker rights campaigner could be seen to be suggesting that all those who voted Brexit were racist (or more accurately that one of the dominant themes behind the vote was racism).

As for the old people voting thing, one article on GQ magazine and a few tweets from Twitter? That's it?

And those are your bases for claiming that essentially the two sides are equivalent? I've not
 
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