Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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The "free movement" argument is interesting in light of what is being discussed regarding the Irish border, isn't it?

The idea being presented (Ireland handling travel into the UK via NI at entry points onto the island itself) would mean that EU travellers are of necessity allowed through as Ireland is an EU member. Indeed the line presented in the articles discussing this move is that EU travellers would be a moot point as the numbers of EU citizens seeking to move to the UK illegally would be so low.

In which case the only people really being turned away would be non-EU immigrants, who could presumably have been turned away prior to brexit?

Not really seeing how the UK and Ireland's position against a hard border can co-exist with the intention to curtail freedom of movement? Unless I'm missing something...
 
sullydnl said:
The "free movement" argument is interesting in light of what is being discussed regarding the Irish border, isn't it?

The idea being presented (Ireland handling travel into the UK via NI at entry points onto the island itself) would mean that EU travellers are of necessity allowed through as Ireland is an EU member. Indeed the line presented in the articles discussing this move is that EU travellers would be a moot point as the numbers of EU citizens seeking to move to the UK illegally would be so low.

In which case the only people really being turned away would be non-EU immigrants, who could presumably have been turned away prior to brexit?

Not really seeing how the UK and Ireland's position against a hard border can co-exist with the intention to curtail freedom of movement? Unless I'm missing something...
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An added bonus for the British Right Wing is that when it comes to light in a few years that immigration hasn't gone down enough for the public(It will never be low enough for the public). They can just blame Ireland and it's government for not keeping up it's end of the deal(I image that's the exact phasing that will be used).
 
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Silva said:
A more apt analogy would be buying a Honda and later complaining that you thought it was a Ferrari.
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And then throwing a bucket or red paint over the front of the Honda, ripping out the suspension and declaring it a new "Super duper Ferrari mk5".
 
sullydnl said:
The "free movement" argument is interesting in light of what is being discussed regarding the Irish border, isn't it?

The idea being presented (Ireland handling travel into the UK via NI at entry points onto the island itself) would mean that EU travellers are of necessity allowed through as Ireland is an EU member. Indeed the line presented in the articles discussing this move is that EU travellers would be a moot point as the numbers of EU citizens seeking to move to the UK illegally would be so low.

In which case the only people really being turned away would be non-EU immigrants, who could presumably have been turned away prior to brexit?

Not really seeing how the UK and Ireland's position against a hard border can co-exist with the intention to curtail freedom of movement? Unless I'm missing something...
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UK officials believe that, with all of Europe to choose from, EU nationals won't opt to live and work illegally in Britain.
 
Will Absolute said:
UK officials believe that, with all of Europe to choose from, EU nationals won't opt to live and work illegally in Britain.
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Indeed. It's just funny that for all the talk of the UK "controlling its borders" post-brexit, it still can't actually really control its borders anyway due to the NI situation. I would've thought there'd be more of a reaction against that idea from the section of leavers who were primarily motivated by that desire.
 
Sweet Square said:
An added bonus for the British Right Wing is that when it comes to light in a few years that immigration hasn't gone down enough for the public(It will never be low enough for the public). They can just blame Ireland and it's government for not keeping up it's end of the deal(I image that's the exact phasing that will be used).
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Can't imagine the Irish government will be all that bothered by what the British right wing thinks anyway. As long as they behave they're free to criticise all they like, I guess.
 
It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so infuriating. A huge decision, on a global scale, decided by people like in the above video. Seriously, what the feck?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37617813

I kept hearing from leavers how it will 'help the UK economically', but I kept telling them that it isn't the UK you want to worry about, it's ourselves as the people in it. The UK won't give you more money when it saves some (which it was apparently meant to). You won't benefit.

And here we are, now spending more to go away and escape this dull fecking country, and spending more to get to work so we can live in it. Yay

Look forward to seeing what amazing stuff it brings in the long run that was definitely foreseen by all these leavers.
 
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So does anyone know any brexiters that regret their decision or admit that maybe it wasn't all scaremongering regarding the economy? The leavers on my Facebook feed have gone from thinking it was the most important thing in the world pre referendum to never mentioning it now.
 
LuisNaniencia said:
So does anyone know any brexiters that regret their decision or admit that maybe it wasn't all scaremongering regarding the economy? The leavers on my Facebook feed have gone from thinking it was the most important thing in the world pre referendum to never mentioning it now.
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I think most of them have forgotten it ever happened. The majority won't pay attention enough to notice the effects trickle in slowly and relatively quietly, and those that actually care and are therefore more affected have to deal with what they did.
 
LuisNaniencia said:
So does anyone know any brexiters that regret their decision or admit that maybe it wasn't all scaremongering regarding the economy? The leavers on my Facebook feed have gone from thinking it was the most important thing in the world pre referendum to never mentioning it now.
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Still early - not everyone will have been following what has been going on. Its got a bit tedious, best left to the experts to sort out. ;)
 
sullydnl said:
Can't imagine the Irish government will be all that bothered by what the British right wing thinks anyway. As long as they behave they're free to criticise all they like, I guess.
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Oh yeah I'm sure it won't have any effect on he Irish government. I was more thinking about the Irish already living over here(Me included)and that it's another way to fuel the anti immigration rhetoric while letting off the current(and likely future)Conservative government.
 
LuisNaniencia said:
So does anyone know any brexiters that regret their decision or admit that maybe it wasn't all scaremongering regarding the economy? The leavers on my Facebook feed have gone from thinking it was the most important thing in the world pre referendum to never mentioning it now.
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The majority of those who voted Brexit dont fit into the category of being politically or at all informed so its no suprise they've gone quiet.

I did have a colleague defend Mays right to do as she wished because the peoples voted Brexit and Brexit means Brexit. Had to carefully back out out of that conversation to avoid verbal abuse at work.
 
Worked out if i had kept my money in my various funds rather than pulling out for a house deposit (that we eventually pulled out of) id be up 3.5k since Brexit. Some people are making huge money out of the sterling collapse.

Deciding whether i want to reinvest now. If the goverment proceeds with hard brexit sterling will bottom further and gains will be there to be made.
 
Member 5225 said:
When as a British person by birth did I sign up to my country being in some social union where we are borderless and 'share culture' with an ever growing number of countries? Not that it's bad, but when did I sign up to it? I think the manner almost pushed a lot of people (including me) just over the edge IMHO.
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We signed up in the 70s
 
Member 5225 said:
How is it ironic, it's exactly what I want!

After over a year long process even due to be being married to a Canadian, and still had to jump through hoops of fire (medicals, police checks, etc) happily. I expect the same for my country.
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You demonstrate the greatness of the EU in this post. To be able to move and live in 27 countries with minimal government intervention is a great thing
 
If the government loses its case in the British courts, they could eventually go to the European Court of Justice.

It raises the possibility of a truly strange scenario - Brexit ministers asking European judges to overturn the decision of the British courts.
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From the BBC article on the legal challenge at the high Court. Would be a fitting end to this farce I guess.
 
Mihajlovic said:
"The net impact on public sector receipts - assuming no contributions to the EU and current receipts from the EU are replicated in full - would be a loss of between £38 billion and £66 billion per year after 15 years, driven by the smaller size of the economy."

Even if you work with the lower figure, it's still an enormous loss. Btw is Osborne's pre-referendum report not cleared for public?
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I presume that you took that line from the report itself? Yet what use are such conclusions of the raw data and working assumptions were themselves flawed? Wilfully so i might add.


Silva said:
The European parliament is democratically elected. And non-elected officials are sent by your nationally elected parliament. Nothing the EU does can happen without the explicit consent of every member states elected officials.
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QMV has been of increasing relevance since he introduction of the Lisbon Treaty however.

Neither the European Parliament, nor British Prime Ministers of recent decades, were reliable actors in brining about the sort of change which Eurosceptics would find acceptable. No grouping of either political class would disband EU ministries, make the commissioners redundant, strip the ECJ of primacy, have trade deals as an opt-in, remove Brussels form national tax concerns e.t.c. Which is before you even touch on the issue of FoM, and whether the present rate of immigration is unsustainable.

People will say that it would have been better to stay and attempt internal reforms, yet where have the previous decades got us? Certainly not a European Union closer to Britain's ideal, quite the contrary. The moment was now, and we either had to seize it or give up on such Euroscepticism altogether (at least in any major politicla capacity).
 
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Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Neither the European Parliament, nor British Prime Ministers of recent decades, were reliable actors in brining about the sort of change of which Eurosceptics would find acceptable.
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You are right and we are responsible for that when France or the UK uses the European elections as a sanction against domestic government and elect the likes of Le Pen and Farage. We refuse to elect them on the national level because we know how useless they are but willfully send them to Strasbourg where they ostentatiously do nothing.

Us, electors are useless and the main culprits.
 
Mozza said:
You demonstrate the greatness of the EU in this post. To be able to move and live in 27 countries with minimal government intervention is a great thing
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What if I have bad intentions. Plus if it was like that for Canada, you sure it wouldn't be double/triple the population of today?!
 
Member 5225 said:
What if I have bad intentions. Plus if it was like that for Canada, you sure it wouldn't be double/triple the population of today?!
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You do realize, that Canada’s goal of immigration policy is to increase the population? Some years they don’t even reach their quota of new immigrants, so I am fairly confident that their population wouldn’t have doubled/tripled.
Btw: when did you sign up to be British?
 
PedroMendez said:
You do realize, that Canada’s goal of immigration policy is to increase the population? Some years they don’t even reach their quota of new immigrants, so I am fairly confident that their population wouldn’t have doubled/tripled.
Btw: when did you sign up to be British?
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Born British and I'd much rather a nation has the ability to project and thereby flex rather than stumble into situations (numbers).
Plus quality > quantity IMO
 
Sir Keir Starmer killing it. Crucial to understand this: "The referendum is NOT a mandate for the TERMS of exiting the EU." Requires scrutiny and the government to present plans which outline negotiating strategy before the House.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Sir Keir Starmer killing it. Crucial to understand this: "The referendum is NOT a mandate for the TERMS of exiting the EU." Requires scrutiny and the government to present plans which outline negotiating strategy before the House.
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Yep, I'm impressed.

He's bang on, too. The government are trying to use Brexit to force their vision of it through when such decisions shouldn't be taken by them alone. Hopefully if it comes to a vote enough backbench Tories rebel and we don't go ahead with this idiotic plan of leaving the single market.
 
Cheesy said:
Yep, I'm impressed.

He's bang on, too. The government are trying to use Brexit to force their vision of it through when such decisions shouldn't be taken by them alone. Hopefully if it comes to a vote enough backbench Tories rebel and we don't go ahead with this idiotic plan of leaving the single market.
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Absolutely. I think the point about "the people have voted and we must respect their will" needs to be challenged every time it's been brought up. Fact is that just about half of the electorate DID NOT vote for leave, so how is the government ensuring that it speaks for them too? That's why the fight for the access to the single market must be prioritized.
 
Member 5225 said:
Born British and I'd much rather a nation has the ability to project and thereby flex rather than stumble into situations (numbers).
Plus quality > quantity IMO
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Well, you are also born in the EU, so you are also a European citizen. Where is the difference to your British citizenship? Why is one a problem and the other not?

I have no problem with people, who want different (e.g. more restrictive) immigration policies. I don’t think that this is racist, even so I fancy less restrictions. If all you care about is that less Polish /eastern-European people working in the UK, voting for Brexit is reasonable.

It is just the lack of knowledge that surprises me. Most of the people talking about wanting a system similar to Canada or Australia clearly have to clue about the goals and the performance of migration policies in these countries. There are even aspects of immigration policy where Canada adapted ideas of the British model.

Once you start talking about democracy/ sovereignty, it really gets weird. It all boils down to a feeling. Only very few aspects of your life are actually decided in Brussel and you struggle to name any that you don’t like except “European migration”.
 
PedroMendez said:
Well, you are also born in the EU, so you are also a European citizen. Where is the difference to your British citizenship? Why is one a problem and the other not?

I have no problem with people, who want different (e.g. more restrictive) immigration policies. I don’t think that this is racist, even so I fancy less restrictions. If all you care about is that less Polish /eastern-European people working in the UK, voting for Brexit is reasonable.

It is just the lack of knowledge that surprises me. Most of the people talking about wanting a system similar to Canada or Australia clearly have to clue about the goals and the performance of migration policies in these countries. There are even aspects of immigration policy where Canada adapted ideas of the British model.

Once you start talking about democracy/ sovereignty, it really gets weird. It all boils down to a feeling. Only very few aspects of your life are actually decided in Brussel and you struggle to name any that you don’t like except “European migration”.
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Stop forcing me to be European (I say it in a cheeky way, but it's my point).
 
Mihajlovic said:
Absolutely. I think the point about "the people have voted and we must respect their will" needs to be challenged every time it's been brought up. Fact is that just about half of the electorate DID NOT vote for leave, so how is the government ensuring that it speaks for them too?
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It is precisely this type of sentiment which would cause me to give David Davis the benefit of the doubt. Attempts to undermine or stall negotiations, and undermine the will of the electorate, should be fought most strenuously. The pillars of Brexit are well enough known, and unveiling the minutiae of our negotiating strategy before talks have begun seems sensible enough.

Where were these MPs with their desire for scrutiny and respect for their constituents, when the Lisbon Treaty was merrily given the green light?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
It is precisely this type of sentiment which would cause me to give David Davis the benefit of the doubt. Attempts to undermine or stall negotiations, and undermine the will of the electorate, should be fought most strenuously. The pillars of Brexit are well enough known, and unveiling the minutiae of our negotiating strategy before talks have begun seems sensible enough.

Where were these MPs with their desire for scrutiny and respect for their constituents, when the Lisbon Treaty was merrily given the green light?
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It's not undermining the electorate to point out that the government are using the vote as a mandate to enforce their own changes on us, especially when that may include leaving the single market when it could be very troubling economically to do so.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Attempts to undermine or stall negotiations, and undermine the will of the electorate, should be fought most strenuously. The pillars of Brexit are well enough known, and unveiling the minutiae of our negotiating strategy before talks have begun seems sensible enough.

Where were these MPs with their desire for scrutiny and respect for their constituents, when the Lisbon Treaty was merrily given the green light?
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There are many ways to Brexit and May is taking a hardline stance, which probably is the worst for Britain economically. Whilst the premise of the exit cannot be ignored the ways and means to do so can certainly be debated.
 
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