Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Stanley Road said:
While I prefer reality I will entertain your question.

I would get on with it and move on, making the best of my new situation
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I don't expect the Dutch to behave like the UK might , it was just hypothetical, but if it happened to me I don't think I would accept destroying one's life quite so casually
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'm not saying that the EU has any impact on why you prefer the Netherlands. What I am saying is that the EU's laws on freedom of movement made it substantially easier for a bloke without qualifications to move to a country and work. If it would not have been impossible for you to move without it it (as it would be under the oft mooted points based system for example) then it did nonetheless substantially remove barriers and hurdles that your non-EU colleagues had to jump over (and again this is not to say that you didn't have to deal with bollocks either, just that the amount of bollocks was reduced) and go around. Of course you being lucky with the job market is a related factor, but it does not invalidate the rights you enjoyed as an EU citizen.

I just find it weird that for someone who is now substantially happier with their life than if they would have had to stay here you can quite flippantly turn around and say that you 'don't care' about something that you've benefited from in FoM. Whether you think that justifies the aspects of the EU you don't like or not is of course entirely up to you, but I just think its weird to completely disavow the opportunities it gave you.
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It doesn't matter, while I may have benefitted from FoM, I will live wherever I want to. If you have to jump thru hoops then so be it, people are putting too much emphasis on irrelevant gash.

If you want to live in the EU then move here.

And I am not a European citizen, my passport says british.
 
Stanley Road said:
It doesn't matter, while I may have benefitted from FoM, I will live wherever I want to. If you have to jump thru hoops then so be it, people are putting too much emphasis on irrelevant gash.

If you want to live in the EU then move here.

And I am not a European citizen, my passport says british.
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Perhaps that should be how it works but it isn't.

Unless you've taken up citizenship (which I take it you haven't, apologies if I'm wrong) you might have the permanent right to reside in the Netherlands now, but even that could be dependent on the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU. Although I'm sure that you've now lived there long enough to apply for Dutch citizenship in the worst case scenario (hows your Dutch?) - and that scenario itself is unlikely - its not implausible that others around Europe and in the Netherlands won't be so lucky and will find out that they no longer can stay despite having built lives and integrated there. But you certainly couldn't rock up to any other country, EU or no, and decide you're living there as I'm sure you yourself said earlier in the thread.

And by definition you are an EU citizen (note European Union not 'European'), that is until the UK leaves the Union, Article 20 of some EU treaty sets out the conditions for citizenship which is more or less 'if you're a citizen of a member state you're a citizen of the European Union'. So yeah, you are, sorry.

Either way, as I said, I just find it bizarre to be so flippant about FoM when you yourself are such a good example of how it helps some people. Just as an aside, why the Netherlands and not, say, Canada?
 
Stanley Road said:
When I came to Holland if you could walk and talk at the same time you could get a job, not cos of the eu but the job market was the best it had been since 1973, since then I have learned a lot from my work experience but I came here without a single qualification from skool. That was 1998. The reason there are so many international companies here is cos the business tax rate for the first 10 years is very low, take note UK.

50% of the people in my office are from non eu european countries, the non dutch Europeans have left shitholes like spain and Italy where it seems illegal to have a job. Some of the one eu colleagues have the uk as their final destination, its the language, everybody speaks it.

While me and the mrs would be happy moving to the UK I never want to work there again, so if I could afford not to work there then I would be happy to live there, apart from fags and public transport everything is so much cheaper.

While my life has improved here it is not cos of the eu its because of the Netherlands. When I look to the east and south I cant think of a single country I'd like to live in, wouldn't mind one of the Nordic countries tho.
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The highlighted part demonstrates your problem, it's ignorance.

I'm English and I live in Spain working for a Spanish company and its anything but a shithole with some of the most beautiful cities and areas of coastline to be found anywhere in Europe. A completely family first orientated culture, a rich history and warm and welcoming people.

To call an entire country like Spain or Italy a shithole is ridiculous.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Perhaps that should be how it works but it isn't.

Unless you've taken up citizenship (which I take it you haven't, apologies if I'm wrong) you might have the permanent right to reside in the Netherlands now, but even that could be dependent on the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU. Although I'm sure that you've now lived there long enough to apply for Dutch citizenship in the worst case scenario (hows your Dutch?) - and that scenario itself is unlikely - its not implausible that others around Europe and in the Netherlands won't be so lucky and will find out that they no longer can stay despite having built lives and integrated there. But you certainly couldn't rock up to any other country, EU or no, and decide you're living there as I'm sure you yourself said earlier in the thread.

And by definition you are an EU citizen (note European Union not 'European'), that is until the UK leaves the Union, Article 20 of some EU treaty sets out the conditions for citizenship which is more or less 'if you're a citizen of a member state you're a citizen of the European Union'. So yeah, you are, sorry.

Either way, as I said, I just find it bizarre to be so flippant about FoM when you yourself are such a good example of how it helps some people. Just as an aside, why the Netherlands and not, say, Canada?
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I had to visit the immigration police regularly in the first few years and i hated it.

I would probably be able to apply for citizenship but i am quite happy to be british despite not wanting to live there.

The GF's brother lives in oz and is an oz citizen, he managed that for him and his chinese wife with relative ease.

I would have made it here whatever the situation. My GF is dutch and not canadian do canada not interesting. I have already mentioned in this thread that my friend from the phillipines got his GF over here and within a week got a work permit and 2 part time jobs.

Yeah you might have to jump thru hoops but it can be done.

So why doesn't everybody relax and just get on with the job?
 
Stanley Road said:
the non dutch Europeans have left shitholes like spain and Italy where it seems illegal to have a job.

While me and the mrs would be happy moving to the UK I never want to work there again,
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The irony
 
Stanley Road said:
It doesn't matter, while I may have benefitted from FoM, I will live wherever I want to. If you have to jump thru hoops then so be it, people are putting too much emphasis on irrelevant gash.

If you want to live in the EU then move here.

And I am not a European citizen, my passport says british.
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To get a travel visa for my wife to visit Spain for a week I have to pay £70, provide bank statements, proof of tickets and accommodation, her studying, and prove our relationship. You may be lucky enough to afford this shit, I am just about, but you'll make the world smaller for many people
 
Stanley Road said:
While I prefer reality I will entertain your question.

I would get on with it and move on, making the best of my new situation
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If you really believe this then how do you reconcile it with your political choice? Far as I rem, you said you are further to the left of corbyn.
 
Mozza said:
To get a travel visa for my wife to visit Spain for a week I have to pay £70, provide bank statements, proof of tickets and accommodation, her studying, and prove our relationship. You may be lucky enough to afford this shit, I am just about, but you'll make the world smaller for many people
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It will probably restrict my son't ability to work as if he want to play his sport in Europe then in many countries he will be treated as a non-EU player and you can only have a limited number (2 I think) in each team. It means that playing for the top team in Europe who are in Itlay is almost impossible - as opposed to a massive longshot ;) - but you get the idea.
 
Stanley Road said:
The GF's brother lives in oz and is an oz citizen, he managed that for him and his chinese wife with relative ease.
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Things get harder each year. We got in with ease in the early90's but someone in the same position today would struggle I think.
 
AshfordLad said:
If you really believe this then how do you reconcile it with your political choice? Far as I rem, you said you are further to the left of corbyn.
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When you are faced with difficult situations in life your concerns are more focussed on keeping yourself and your family afloat, less about political leanings.

Last time i was made redundant my sister asked what i was going to do, my brother chirped in with "get another job" and thats it. Get on with it.

The fact that i despise the inbalance of the eu zone and some of its leaders that want to protect banks and help busineses avoid tax, fits in totally with my political choices.

We will never be truly equal until we all have nothing.
 
SirHenryPercy said:
The highlighted part demonstrates your problem, it's ignorance.

I'm English and I live in Spain working for a Spanish company and its anything but a shithole with some of the most beautiful cities and areas of coastline to be found anywhere in Europe. A completely family first orientated culture, a rich history and warm and welcoming people.

To call an entire country like Spain or Italy a shithole is ridiculous.
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What I love about the Current Events forum is that posters masks slip and reveal their true persona. Very helpful for building onto the ignore list.
 
The seismic political upheavals triggered by June’s calamitous vote to leave theEuropean Union have greatly intensified in recent days, with the Tories at their conference in Birmingham following Labour and Ukip in a frantic, often divisive and persistently contradictory drive to identify and occupy the elusive “new centre ground” of British politics.

The most striking aspect of this struggle is that, in seeking to capitalise on the post-referendum state of flux, politicians in both main parties are paradoxically moving sharply away from the middle. In doing so, they set at risk fundamental liberal values and the universal, progressive principles that Britain, since the 18th-century Age of the Enlightenment, has been instrumental in spreading around the globe and in which its modern-day democracy and open society are rooted.




Theresa May’s first major speech as Conservative prime minister was intriguing for its renunciation of Thatcherism’s pernicious but still pervasive emphasis on individualism and antisocial self-interest. Taken by itself, this public recanting is as welcome as it is overdue. May stressed instead her intention to use the power of government to change and improve people’s lives, lauding “the good the state can do”.

But in anointing herself as standard-bearer for the interests of what she patronisingly called “ordinary people”, May tottered on the edge of the old Benthamite trap of suggesting she and her ministers know what is best for everyone. They should tread carefully. In a parliamentary democracy, overweening executive authority, convinced of its own moral rightness, is a creature to be feared, not admired, as America’s founding fathers knew full well when they built checks and balances into the US constitution.

Even as the Tories dream lazily of ruling in perpetuity, the rational parts of their brains must surely understand that May’s old school, top-down, take-what’s-good-for-you governance is neither desirable, democratic or effective. If May really believes they can become “the party of the workers, the party of public servants, the party of the NHS”, she must learn to talk to those workers, not down to them – and listen before leaping on issues such as grammar schools and Hinkley Point.


These and other noisome, ill-thought-out ideas, emanating from senior ministers bearing the seal of government, are as alarming as they are unpleasant. They carry a gross whiff of xenophobia. They convey an inescapable undertone of racism and intolerance. And they are a testament to what looks increasingly like an accelerating retreat from Britain’s liberal, inclusive and open-minded tradition and a return to the narrow, delusional world of Little England.

Despite much of what was said last week, Brexit was not a vote to scrap free access to the single market, thereby alienating Japanese and other overseas investors. Does Fox really think China, America or India will helpfully offer Britain, negotiating by itself, the same favourable terms that an EU bloc of 28 countries negotiating collectively has obtained? If he does, he should seek other work.

Do these hard Brexiters truly believe our European partners will sit on their hands if Britain sets about demolishing EU founding pillars such as freedom of movement and goods? Do they honestly pretend Britain can continue to trade while rejecting agreed EU rules policed by the European court of justice?

Do they somehow think British soldiers who commit war crimes should escape the sanction of European human rights conventions and international law? If they do, then dunderhead must be added to duplicity on the lengthening Brexiter charge sheet.

François Hollande, France’s president, is a socialist, but no radical. He faces a fierce challenge from the hard right in next year’s elections. Yet swiftly responding to the messages coming out of Birmingham, Hollande reacted sharplylast week. Britain must and will pay if it persists in such gratuitous vandalism, Hollande said.

Viewed from the French, German and Italian mainstream, there is less and less to distinguish hard Brexiters from Marine Le Pen’s extremist Front National (which enthusiastically eggs them on) or the similarly xenophobic, nationalist Alternative for Germany. They are wreckers. They are reckless. They are irresponsible. They know only what they do not like. And they have little or no practical idea how they will replace the hard-won principles and institutions they traduce.

Whatever these delusional Tories believe, theirs is not the path to Britain’s new centre ground. Yet Labour, too, seems to have wholly lost its way as it struggles with internal divisions and the mortal threat to its working-class heartlands posed by Ukip.

Rarely has the country required a purposeful, effective opposition as badly as it does now. Rarely if ever has there been such urgent need of a champion ready to defend workers’ rights, regardless of race or nationality, to fight for the values of tolerance, inclusion and equality embodied in the European treaties and to lead those who feel threatened by mass migration, job insecurity, poverty and globalisation towards a broader understanding of who their real enemies are.

Stand up, Jeremy Corbyn, newly re-elected Labour leader. Except, on Europe, the defining issue of our time, Corbyn has consistently failed to stand up, show a lead or demonstrate an appreciation of the wider issues. Yes, more social housing is important. Yes, a higher minimum would be nice. Yes, the railways are a mess. But this is hardly the point.

Without a prosperous economy and expanding tax take, such policies will remain as unfunded wishful thinking. And if a hard Brexit takes hold, pushed through arbitrarily from next March onwards while a blinkered Corbyn vainly squabbles with his MPs and parliament is sidelined, much current public spending may be at risk, let alone any new programmes.

Corbyn must now demonstrate that he is the man to rise to this pre-eminently urgent national challenge. The line of attack is clear. It is not unpatriotic, as May & co perniciously suggest, to want this country to remain close to the EU and play as full a part as possible within Europe. It is not supercilious or elitist to suggest many Leave voters were egregiously misled about the consequences of Brexit by Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. It is only right to be concerned that this new administration is using Brexit as a means to foist a divisive rightwing agenda on the country. It is deeply worrying that, as a result, the Brexit process may be botched and our national interests, and our people, will consequently suffer across the board.

On one point, all perhaps can agree: this political crisis is about taking back control. But Brussels is not the enemy. The EU was always a straw man. Nor is the crisis about a loss of community, native culture and traditions, as some maintain. In all respects, these aspects of our national life are thriving, although they are evolving in ways some conservatives do not like.


No, this crisis is about reasserting and deepening democratic governance on behalf of all the people while limiting the control and excesses of those who, by one means or another, exercise power over us.

Just as in the time of Tom Paine and the American and French revolutions, it is a battle for equality, justice and tolerance, for the proud liberal principles of individual freedom, openness and inclusion. It is a struggle between the forces of reaction, prejudice, ignorance, dogmatism and self-interest and the universal vision of progressive societies in which the rights of all men and women are respected and advanced. It is an ongoing historical contest that everyone who cares about a fairer society must now steel themselves to fight again – and by all means, win. For here, not on Brexit’s wilder shores, is where Britain’s centre ground truly lies.
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SirHenryPercy said:
The highlighted part demonstrates your problem, it's ignorance.

I'm English and I live in Spain working for a Spanish company and its anything but a shithole with some of the most beautiful cities and areas of coastline to be found anywhere in Europe. A completely family first orientated culture, a rich history and warm and welcoming people.

To call an entire country like Spain or Italy a shithole is ridiculous.
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If only friendly people and natural beauty paid the mortgage

Politically and economically its a hole. 3rd election in dec? Lets hope Rajoy finally disappears from the political landscape.
 

@Adisa

Good read. Thanks for posting. I think that my initial fear that the whole Brexit fiasco seems to be dragging us back to a 1930s jackboot society, seems to becoming a reality!

How soon before we start seeing party political broadcasts asking the good citizens of "true British" origin pass on information about suspicious foreigners in the neighbourhood. Never mind the fact they lived next door for about 10 years!
 
SirHenryPercy said:
The highlighted part demonstrates your problem, it's ignorance.

I'm English and I live in Spain working for a Spanish company and its anything but a shithole with some of the most beautiful cities and areas of coastline to be found anywhere in Europe. A completely family first orientated culture, a rich history and warm and welcoming people.

To call an entire country like Spain or Italy a shithole is ridiculous.
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Werent you working for a passported FS company till Friday? Did you change a job yesterday.
 
JPRouve said:
Spanish companies can't be passported?
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He was claiming that his company will lose clients and have to cut jobs due to brexit. Now that might be true as well, but it would still go against his doomsday prediction for the city.
 
AshfordLad said:
He was claiming that his company will lose clients and have to cut jobs due to brexit. Now that might be true as well, but it would still go against his doomsday prediction for the city.
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The City won't face any doomsday, they are in London because they want to, they could move anywhere else and have the passport that they want. At the end of the day, they will take the decision that they want and they will lobby for the brexit that they prefer, they are the ones with all the power.

If they think that a hard brexit is acceptable for them, hard brexit will happen. If they think that a soft brexit is best, we will see a soft brexit. Now if I'm wrong and the politicians don't follow The City's wishes then the UK are maybe doomed because they will move in the EU, but that's in my opinion highly unlikely.

You can agree with that?
 
AshfordLad said:
He was claiming that his company will lose clients and have to cut jobs due to brexit. Now that might be true as well, but it would still go against his doomsday prediction for the city.
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I do indeed work for a UK domiciled FS company, we also have a Spanish sales and marketing company who I am technically employed by. We have both Spanish and British staff here. We will 100% lose clients due to Brexit, we already have and as a result in time job losses will be inevitable.
 
Mozza said:
To get a travel visa for my wife to visit Spain for a week I have to pay £70, provide bank statements, proof of tickets and accommodation, her studying, and prove our relationship. You may be lucky enough to afford this shit, I am just about, but you'll make the world smaller for many people
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What's your wife's nationality?
 
JPRouve said:
The City won't face any doomsday, they are in London because they want to, they could move anywhere else and have the passport that they want. At the end of the day, they will take the decision that they want and they will lobby for the brexit that they prefer, they are the ones with all the power.

If they think that a hard brexit is acceptable for them, hard brexit will happen. If they think that a soft brexit is best, we will see a soft brexit. Now if I'm wrong and the politicians don't follow The City's wishes then the UK are maybe doomed because they will move in the EU, but that's in my opinion highly unlikely.

You can agree with that?
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Pretty much. I dont think a hard brexit will happen. Its not in favour of EU and even more unfavourable to the UK.

All this tough talk is political posturing by May to be seen as being a hard negotiator. The hardest job for tories is not getting the deal but to market the deal they get in the end as the best one up north.
 
SirHenryPercy said:
I do indeed work for a UK domiciled FS company, we also have a Spanish sales and marketing company who I am technically employed by. We have both Spanish and British staff here. We will 100% lose clients due to Brexit, we already have and as a result in time job losses will be inevitable.
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Ah alright, sorry. Did not figure that out since the earlier discussion was rather simplistic.
 
Stanley Road said:
If only friendly people and natural beauty paid the mortgage

Politically and economically its a hole. 3rd election in dec? Lets hope Rajoy finally disappears from the political landscape.
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You're prejudice blinds you, whilst it's true there are problems in Spain and that the recession was very deep there are also a lot of very positive signs for the country, it's currently enjoying one of the fastest growth rates in Western Europe.

Here is a bit of balance:

https://www.cebr.com/reports/the-sp...l-be-western-europes-fastest-growing-economy/

Despite this using your guide as to what constitutes a shithole then outside of London much of the rest of the U.K. would be shitholes. I'm sure you don't think that to be the case and therefore you should be able to see why levelling such a description against Spain is nonsense.
 
AshfordLad said:
Ah alright, sorry. Did not figure that out since the earlier discussion was rather simplistic.
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No problem, for my firm Brexit is very bad news and to me personally as well, I have already suffered some not insignificant loss of earnings and this will only get worse in time.

However there are other benefits to living here that compensates for financial losses.
 
Stanley Road said:
He did it in 2010 I think
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It gets harder and harder each year as we reduce the intake. My folks followed us on a parent visa and now the waiting list is so long they would have died in the UK because by the time they became eligible (about 10 year waitlist last time I checked) they wouldn't have passed the health check. Things do change and often not for the better.
 
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