Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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I thought she had gone away forever, unfortunately not.
Always laugh when people say "we were lied to".
No, you chose to believe the lie. You were looking for fairy tales.
No, you chose to believe the lie. You were looking for fairy tales.
"we should have been told the truth"
Yeah, that's why they lied. Yet, people will still vote for these people at the next election.
This would have been unthinkable a few years ago.
https://www.ft.com/content/3dad4ef3-59e8-437e-8f63-f629a5b7d0aa
https://www.ft.com/content/3dad4ef3-59e8-437e-8f63-f629a5b7d0aa
Completely agree with you and it is a very sad reflection that one of the UK major strengths is being affected so quickly.
Worse still is that almost no one seems to be concerned.
We are very quickly taking back control of 2 tenths of bugger all.
Three cheers for Boris.
Oh dear.
It's unlike a Tory to lie after all, right?
I'd say Brexit might open the eyes of the general public to the Tories but unfortunately they'll just keep voting for these charlatans time and time again.
They'll forget about it in 3 years time and vote Tory again because Keir Starmer doesn't like roast potatoes or something.
Loss of jobs and tax revenue was always my biggest fear and the main reason I voted remain. It's a pity so many remainers went on about empire and spitfires and hilarious coloured passports and how stupid northerners and old people are, the vote was there to be won but we fecked it.
One fella is definitely right that a final vote on the final dog shit deal should have been given to the people rather than parliament. A chance to say “ahh so it was bollocks, ok, stay”.
You think Joe Public would have understood this deal? A referendum of this deal would have succumbed to misinformation, much like the original vote. I have heard people say 'tell the EU to feck of with their protocol'. Our fate was sealed when the country gave the Tories an 84 seat majority.
I don't think this is true. The leavers were ridiculed more after the vote. Before the vote the remain campaign was almost non-existent. There were a few half-hearted Tories like Osborne , Labour didn't turn up.
Looking from outside the UK I can't think of any significant pro-EU speakers. Can think of plenty of Brexit campaigners.
The people who actually knew what they were talking about, actual experts, were ignored .
The biggest con trick in modern history worked.
The outcome and the consequences were obvious.
The debate became about that because any attempt to talk about the very obvious negatives of Brexit was shouted down with 'It's just Project Fear, what you talking down Britain for'.
It's hard to make the positive case for keeping your own foot when someone's decided that if they were to chop it off and throw it to the sharks then they'd get X ray vision and be able to shoot heat seeking missiles out of their ears.
Unfortunately, that's the problem with Brexit. Some people felt let down by the status quo and were offered some sort of change by the shysters who had made the status quo so miserable (although, again, people down play the posh, rich, white vote in the South East). No amount of telling people that Brexit would not solve those issues and would make them worse was going to land with those people because they'd decided they wanted to gamble in the hope that whatever happened next was better.
Yeah maybe, but better to let public decide on an actual deal rather than a fairy tale.
Sad but true.
Maybe a Caf prediction thread on what issue the Red Tops beat him to death with.
Exactly. If half of these tits actually took 10 minutes out of their day to do a little research into Brexit they’d have realised that Boris, Farage and co were spouting a load of bollocks all along and maybe we wouldn’t be in this position now.
That requires too much introspection I'm afraid.
Brexit was quite an easy vote for me because I could see that all the arseholes were voting one way.
When your ideology directly matches those arseholes it leaves you with nowhere to go.
Thinking back to the 75 referendum as best I can, the printed press were far more influential than they are today, even nastier if anything, and mostly Leave, the main political parties were far more split than they are today, although at least honestly so, yet Remain won. @Paul the Wolf is right in one respect, many heavyweight politicians of all sides spoke out well then for Remain, that was absent this time and I think it told. But in general I feel the debate was more adult all round, and I think that told as well. Just saying everybody was stupid or everybody was conned doesn't wash for me I'm afraid, somewhere along the line Remainers fecked up themselves, including me no doubt.
You're right to a certain extent but this time social media played a big part as well. It was a finely tuned campaign from Leave (not Farage , I mean Cummings)and they knew how to appeal to the voters. They were more sophisticated in appealing to the things they knew would tick boxes without actually promising them anything concrete.
Remain could only say . if you do x then y will happen or should they have lied like Leave?. Since the referendum the lies have just snowballed, there was no option, once the lies started another one had to be invented to cover the previous one.
At the referendum it wasn't even clear that Leave wanted to leave the Customs Union or any mention of blue passports, even after the vote it was talk of Norway or Swiss type deal, even from Farage ,all the rest came afterwards and then the real name calling started.
I still have the impression that many Leave voters still don't believe Project Fear or Project Reality or whatever despite 5 years of what to me was always going to be clear and obvious consequences.
It’s hard to win a referendum when most of the media is supporting the alternative position and has been publishing anti-EU propaganda for 30 years. The big mistake was, firstly, in agreeing to hold a referendum and, secondly, in structuring it so badly. Remain might have scraped over the line had Labour had a pro-EU leader who wasn’t hated by large swathes of the working and lower middle classes but it was always a tall order to defend a status quo position after 8 years of little to no economic growth and in relation to an institution that all British PMs had found convenient to use as a punchbag. Also, the spitfires and blue passports jokes came after June 2016 - the Remain campaign was focused almost entirely on economic arguments.
Paul, its not just that a substantial number of Leave voters didn't believe either project, it was they didn't care! Most leave voters (that I've met) were on a different page anyway, different to one another in some cases, but united by the feeling of being forgotten, left behind, lied to (for years) was the phrase often used to me. Its symptomatic of the 'red wall' collapse and the vote for Tory candidates in previous dyed-in-the-wool Labour areas.
The fact is that at one of the most crucial times in our history, the Labour party failed their basic constituency when they voted in a Leader who hadn't got a cat in hell's chance of winning a GE, in some Labour areas, never mind the rest of the UK. That is why they will not be forgiven, probably for a generation. Starmer's only chance is to push Boris all the way on his "Even things up" promises.
As for the leaders of Remain, well they had no idea, at all, what was going on; all they could project was a "look how bad it will get (for me implicitly) if we leave, vision! "
Well now, if you were a Leave inclined voter and already felt you were 'pis***g against the wind, basically with both major parties and the other smaller parties are a joke to you, then Farage's clarion call was a 'way out'', at least he seemed to wanted to change things and that's what you wanted, almost at any price, and is likely to be just that... at any price!
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I get what you're saying but it's what I mean. The Uk government have for donkeys years , not just the last 5 or 10 years blamed the EU for all their faults.
If people felt they were left behind why vote in the same government that were responsible for their problems. Why would poor Labour voters vote Tory when it was the Tories behind their problems.
Fortunately for the Tories, Labour had unfortunately put Laurel and Hardy in charge in Corbyn and Starmer, hopeless.
The problem with the Remain argument was that the "left behind" wasn't the EU's fault so the Tory Remainers wouldn't admit it was their fault any more than the Tory Leavers and the Labour dynamic duo couldn't trigger A50 fast enough
Farage couldn't care less about the EU, he was so shocked Leave won he suddenly realised he voted himself out of a job. He's a populist, always against everything but with no solutions, trying to find the next subject he can stir hatred up within the people. Wasn't he going to stir up people against Covid restrictions. Just a nasty little man.
By voting Leave what has even the most ardent Brexiter achieved, there are now more immigrants than ever, there is now more bureaucracy and red-tape than ever, there are more and more problems than ever with business, there are less markets the Uk can trade with easily , even the UK borders are more controlled by the EU than before and there is an endless list of disadvantages.
We're less than 7 weeks in and just some of the problems have only just begun. Much more to come and at what point does someone admit that they have got it so badly wrong.
No-one has been able to state an advantage. Since the vote we've had the cake and eat it, the Norway model, the Swiss model, the Unicorn model, Brexiters chanting WTO, they need us more than we need them , we have all the cards, trade deals will be lined up waiting to be concluded as soon as we leave, now they've moved on to expanding markets as if no-one could trade with them before and freeports, more tax evasion tunnels under a munitions dump, and every time the next lie comes along, when all the previous lies have to been shown to be complete b*ll*x the Brexiters still cheer them on.
Even Liz Truss's photocopier has run out of toner, still hasn't finished copying all the deals the EU negotiated.
If they had just sat down and reflected for a short while on how voting Leave could possibly help anyone's situation (apart from ultra-rich tax evaders) - it's the gullibility of so many people which is so sad. And even more sad is there is no easy or quick solution to get out of this mess and the worse mess yet to come.
The first thing is to change the electoral system and get out of this archaic two party Tory vs Labour mentality.
This is unlikely to happen, without the UK having a written constitution which demands a fairer system of representation. One of the big differences with the other EU states (or most of them) is that the UK does not have a written constitution. Hence our politics is always restrained by the first past the post system, any attempt at coalitions have always been out of a desperation to either hold on to power by one side, and the notion of 'sitting at the big table' from the other. These attempts at seemingly more representative politics have in many ways been even less of a model for representation, as the junior partner is always forced to jettison some of its major vote winning polices, as the Liberals did with Tuition fees and any success is always claimed by the major partner, as Cameron did...some good it did him in the end?
In my opinion the EU referendum was never really about the EU, at least not for the majority who voted leave, it was about successive UK governments never asking the people about major changes, like the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties, (where as many other EU states did just that) of constantly ignoring issues that worried people, especially immigration, refusing to even talk about these issues, in the end we all reaped the world-wind that would inevitably follow.
There is an old saying about getting the government you deserve, never more true than right now!
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Yes, we definitely need a written constitution rather than the ragbag collection of laws and conventions assembled since 1689. The current system is ripe for exploitation by a new breed of politicians who do not feel bound to observe the unwritten rules. In addition to bringing in a more representative electoral system, it should also clarify the relations of Westminster to the 4 nations (and ideally the English regions as well) and delineate the role of the monarch and other members of her family. The story last week about the Queen vetting bills, as well as Charles with his infamous spider handwriting on parliamentary bills, is a joke in 2021.
The new constitution could also set out rules for referenda. Like not making the country’s biggest u-turn in 70 years on the basis of a 2% swing.
They will keep going around in circles on this one unless the UK make some major changes to what they are willing to concede. We live in an entirely different trading world to the world that Britain lived in as the Poor Man of Europe prior to joining back in the 70's. Some people genuinely believe the nonsense that because Britain managed (it didn't) before joining that it can manage now. It's so far off the mark it beggars belief. The EU exists because it allows member states protection against competition. Many of these EU laws were created and designed by Britain. How in the world does the UK believe that it will hold it's own outside of the trading bloc? Does it expect to go to every single individual member State one by one to try and strike up a deal? It's a total disaster. Restarting Brexit talks is only kicking the can down the road unless Britain are willing to give some leeway. Trade isn't fair. It's a fantasy to think it is. The stronger party always come away with more which is why voting out of the EU was moronic.
Watch the government spin it as we're getting a "Singapore on the Thames" solution.
And so it continues...
Brexit: DUP agriculture minister orders Brexit check construction halt
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56217647
Brexit: DUP agriculture minister orders Brexit check construction halt
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56217647
Good thing we took getting a deal to the wire for the sake of British fishing
We were promised bla bla bla. And there are none.
You were lied to.
We were all lied to.
Hope you have a long memory.
"Let them drink coca-cola"
Fantastic idea. Brexit has awoken the genius in so many people.
I get the feeling that this is going to be modus vivendi the next 3 or 4 years. Every thing is going to be linked to Brexit and the ensuing deal.
This exactly how the Tories will prolong their stay in power. Every time something goes wrong, blame the Continent.
Less of that, Brexit means Brexit. We don't use any of that fancy Latin crap from the continent these days