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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
MikeUpNorth said:
:lol: There is an EU Commissioner for Home Affairs. It's literally their job title.

(As an aside, a territory can secede from a nation and this is not the distinction between home and foreign affairs.)
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You are all over the place here. The EU commissioner for Home Affair is in relation to the EU and non EU countries. And I'm telling you that for EU member states, the EU is a foreign affair topic, in fact it's under the umbrella of Foreign affairs ministries. It's not even debatable.

MikeUpNorth said:
The trouble is the EU treaties are basically not fit for purpose, so the EU Court of Justice sometimes has to make rulings which flagrantly stretch the intent of the law beyond any sensible reading of the text. We saw it earlier this year when the German Federal Constitutional Court basically said the EU Court of Justice was making indefensible rulings when it came to the ECB's mandate.
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You described jurisprudence which is a large source of Law, everywhere.
 
711 said:
The cabinet has been called to attend an internet meeting, it's looking very close now. I'm expecting a shedload of posts here along the lines of 'it's a shit deal' and 'Boris is an idiot', but personally I hope it's a rare step in a positive direction, whether Boris has done it or not. Yeah, it's not a customs deal, it doesn't cover loads of things we would really want, but we always knew that, the question for tonight is whether as a trade deal it's better than no deal. I hope it is anyway.
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It wouldn’t be unreasonable for people to criticise the deal if it merely is better than the worst option, in fairness. The expectation they cultivated was for a great deal, not the least worst deal. There is a middle ground between no deal and covering everything people want, and if it leans much closer to the former, criticism is warranted. If it was widely celebrated with no scrutiny then it would be evidence of a much bigger issue than people being a bit too critical.
 
JPRouve said:
You are all over the place here. The EU commissioner for Home Affair is in relation to the EU and non EU countries. And I'm telling you that for EU member states, the EU is a foreign affair topic, in fact it's under the umbrella of Foreign affairs ministries. It's not even debatable.
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No, the EU council configurations involve all the domestic ministers. Trust me mate, I've fecking worked with it enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Configurations
 
Brwned said:
It wouldn’t be unreasonable for people to criticise the deal if it merely is better than the worst option, in fairness. The expectation they cultivated was for a great deal, not the least worst deal. There is a middle ground between no deal and covering everything people want, and if it leans much closer to the former, criticism is warranted. If it was widely celebrated with no scrutiny then it would be evidence of a much bigger issue than people being a bit too critical.
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Fair point, but I never believed in a great deal in the first place, I was just talking about my own view really.
 
711 said:
Fair point, but I never believed in a great deal in the first place, I was just talking about my own view really.
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Yeah, from that perspective I agree. A deal is a positive step. A deal that involves significant compromises was inevitable. I will find it difficult to celebrate given the costs that come with it but I would be very relieved if we avoided the alternative. And I’d be vaguely reassured they have some sense on this issue.
 
Brwned said:
It wouldn’t be unreasonable for people to criticise the deal if it merely is better than the worst option, in fairness. The expectation they cultivated was for a great deal, not the least worst deal. There is a middle ground between no deal and covering everything people want, and if it leans much closer to the former, criticism is warranted. If it was widely celebrated with no scrutiny then it would be evidence of a much bigger issue than people being a bit too critical.
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The expectation is surely around trade deals with countries outside of the EU?

This is mearly just a stepping stone, which will enable the UK to negotiate deals with the US etc.

whilst there’s clearly been a lot of bravado - I’ve no idea what a great deal would look like... a satisfactory deal sounds good to me.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
The expectation is surely around trade deals with countries outside of the EU?

This is mearly just a stepping stone, which will enable the UK to negotiate deals with the US etc.

whilst there’s clearly been a lot of bravado - I’ve no idea what a great deal would look like... a satisfactory deal sounds good to me.
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No there is no shortage of evidence that the EU are our most important trading partner and a great deal specifically with them was expected by the people in charge precisely because we trade so much with them. They went on record about it a number of times. So either they were bluffing massively simply to gain power even at great economic cost or they dramatically underestimated how much stronger the EU’s negotiating position was or how weak the UK’s was. The fact that their supporters are willing to accept much worse than that they promised, dismissing it as simply bravado, is just another reminder of why we are here. They are held to very low standards.
 
Brwned said:
No there is no shortage of evidence that the EU are our most important trading partner and a great deal specifically with them was expected by the people in charge precisely because we trade so much with them. They went on record about it a number of times. So either they were bluffing massively simply to gain power even at great economic cost or they dramatically underestimated how much stronger the EU’s negotiating position was or how weak the UK’s was.
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I’m not arguing that. We know how important the EU is. I think the reality is that a satisfactory deal that pretty much keeps the status is in actual fact a ‘great deal’.

Any benefit from Brexit will come from relationships outside of the EU.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I’m not arguing that. We know how important the EU is. I think the reality is that a satisfactory deal that pretty much keeps the status is in actual fact a ‘great deal’.

Any benefit from Brexit will come from relationships outside of the EU.
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Yes that is what you call moving the goalposts. Satisfactory and great are not synonyms. You don’t need to imagine what a great deal would be, the criteria for that was established by the people you voted for when you voted for them. Satisfactory means we fail to win many of those negotiations. We have already conceded multiple.
 
Brwned said:
Yes that is what you call moving the goalposts. Satisfactory and great are not synonyms. You don’t need to imagine what a great deal would be, the criteria for that was established by the people you voted for when you voted for them. Satisfactory means we fail to win many of those negotiations. We have already conceded multiple.
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I’m just speaking from my own perspective. I said a ‘great deal’ is clearly a lot of bluster. Obviously no one is going to campaign to get a ‘satisfactory deal’. Just trying to separate the reality from the politics.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Yeah, but you're talking rubbish.
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Or you could check. In France and Germany, the ministers for Europe are under the umbrella of respectively Le Drian and Heiko Maas, who are foreign affairs ministers. And it's the same for everyone else.

But that's rubbish.
 
JPRouve said:
Or you could check. In France and Germany, the ministers for Europe are under the umbrella of respectively Le Drian and Heiko Maas, who are foreign affairs ministers. And it's the same for everyone else.

But that's rubbish.
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The EU is clearly a hybrid of foreign and domestic affairs. It even encompasses your domestic currency for goodness sake.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
The EU is clearly a hybrid of foreign and domestic affairs. It even encompasses your domestic currency for goodness sake.
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No one is arguing what the EU is. I told you how the member states consider it, it's under the umbrella of foreign affairs ministries.
 
JPRouve said:
No one is arguing what the EU is. I told you how the member states consider it, it's under the umbrella of foreign affairs ministries.
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Not for every country it's not.

In Italy it's an entirely separate portfolio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Minister_of_European_Affairs

In Sweden, it's a separate minister reporting directly to the PM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_EU_Affairs_(Sweden)

In Finland the European Affairs portfolio was combined with Culture and Sport rather than Foreign Affairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_European_Affairs,_Culture_and_Sport

In Czech, it's a separate portfolio: https://www.vlada.cz/en/evropske-zalezitosti/

In Ireland it's a separate minister, who reports jointly to the Taoiseach and Foreign Minister to reflect the domestic and foreign hybrid role.

I've stopped going through the rest of the countries now.
 
JPRouve said:
No one is arguing what the EU is. I told you how the member states consider it, it's under the umbrella of foreign affairs ministries.
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You argued with that. The comment you originally disputed wasn't about Foreign Ministries, it was:

"I also think it's a mistake to see the EU as mere 'foreign policy' - it's a hybrid of foreign and domestic affairs where it relates to the EU's exclusive competences."
 
711 said:
The cabinet has been called to attend an internet meeting, it's looking very close now. I'm expecting a shedload of posts here along the lines of 'it's a shit deal' and 'Boris is an idiot', but personally I hope it's a rare step in a positive direction, whether Boris has done it or not. Yeah, it's not a customs deal, it doesn't cover loads of things we would really want, but we always knew that, the question for tonight is whether as a trade deal it's better than no deal. I hope it is anyway.
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Better than nothing.

Will it be implemented from Jan 1st?
 
MikeUpNorth said:
The point is that in domestic politics the average person can generally understand the dynamics of politics and who to lobby and hold to account. In the UK, that would be the Tories on the right and Labour on the left, and people know who has made what laws, and why, and who to vote out if they don't like it. Ask the average person in any EU country what the composition of the EU parliament is, which parties are in alliances and power, what are the issues at play... they won't have a clue. It's a mystery to most people. There isn't really unified election campaigning with real trans-national parties where people can directly influence policy. There's slightly odd and ever changing groupings of national parties, where deals are done behind closed doors and any potential for direct influence from citizens is minimal.
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Given the development of the UK in the past 5 years that reads like satire.

To be clear, the EU is far from perfect, and some of the criticism rings true. But all of it pales in comparison to the monumentally misinformed current undertaking and the inaccountability of those involved.
 
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tombombadil said:
Apparently MPs from both sides have said they will work through christmas to ratify the deal if the deal can be finalised in time.
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What happened to the translation issue for the EU parliament? That's not an issue anymore?
 
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711 said:
The cabinet has been called to attend an internet meeting, it's looking very close now. I'm expecting a shedload of posts here along the lines of 'it's a shit deal' and 'Boris is an idiot', but personally I hope it's a rare step in a positive direction, whether Boris has done it or not. Yeah, it's not a customs deal, it doesn't cover loads of things we would really want, but we always knew that, the question for tonight is whether as a trade deal it's better than no deal. I hope it is anyway.
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I echo your sentiments. I was never in favour of us leaving the EU but I do so hope we make a success of this. It has always seemed very strange and perverse that there are many U.K. nationals that seemed to want us to fail miserably. Such an attitude I will never understand. Wishing the U.K. to fail merely to be able to say ‘I told you so’ leaves a nasty after taste.
 
711 said:
The cabinet has been called to attend an internet meeting, it's looking very close now. I'm expecting a shedload of posts here along the lines of 'it's a shit deal' and 'Boris is an idiot', but personally I hope it's a rare step in a positive direction, whether Boris has done it or not. Yeah, it's not a customs deal, it doesn't cover loads of things we would really want, but we always knew that, the question for tonight is whether as a trade deal it's better than no deal. I hope it is anyway.
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I hope so too, but its been clear to many for a very long time that there is no such thing as a 'good' deal relative to what we already had. We'll see what's in the agreement but we're still going to get the logistical shitshow the moment the customs borders go up, the added cost, inflation and loss of trade that will go along with it. It will just be lessened if there's an agreement on tarrifs.

Hopefully what we get is better than a no-deal but its gunna be real difficult feeling any sense of positivity for a long while :/
 
The Tories in here can feck off if you think the rest of us are going to feel grateful for a lesser hell being delivered. Your bunch will deserve all the criticism coming their way when we suffer from it.

This deal is far from a compromise position between leave and remain. It's just avoided a no deal path that in reality should never exist anyway.

I look forward to all the Trump like spin we'll see. I might make a bingo card for the family.
 
Smores said:
The Tories in here can feck off if you think the rest of us are going to feel grateful for a lesser hell being delivered. Your bunch will deserve all the criticism coming their way when we suffer from it.

This deal is far from a compromise position between leave and remain. It's just avoided a no deal path that in reality should never exist anyway.

I look forward to all the Trump like spin we'll see. I might make a bingo card for the family.
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I am certainly not a Tory. But why just them. Lots of Labour voters voted leave.
 
Pleasantly surprised some sort of deal seems to be achievable.
 
Buster15 said:
I am certainly not a Tory. But why just them. Lots of Labour voters voted leave.
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Because it's the Tory voter base including their remainers getting in a tiff about their party being criticised. They want it swept under the carpet when it's one of the greatest acts of self-harm this country has ever done.

Leavers seem to be a bit more bold they don't care about criticism, they 'won'. Despite all of them apparently wanting a no deal of course :wenger:
 
Hopefully the text is published soon so we can move the debate on from whether there will be a deal or no-deal to whether it's a good or bad deal.
 
Smores said:
Because it's the Tory voter base including their remainers getting in a tiff about their party being criticised. They want it swept under the carpet when it's one of the greatest acts of self-harm this country has ever done.

Leavers seem to be a bit more bold they don't care about criticism, they 'won'. Despite all of them apparently wanting a no deal of course :wenger:
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I absolutely agree that this whole shambles is 100% self inflicted.
The issue of being a self governing sovereign nation has emerged as the main requirement /achievement.
Ok. Well done.
But at what cost?Because to me, I really don't care about that. What I do care about is the affect on our economy and with that, the affect on jobs and people's livelihoods.
 
So the 8am press conference slipped to 10am and now they saying Johnson and Ursula von der Leyen are due to have a call 'shortly' and the timing of the announcement now seemingly unspecified.

Oh god, it's a 2,000+ page document, so will be plenty to sift through, with stories dribbling out from it no doubt, over the next few days. Mindful of the 'good day to bury bad news' mantra here.
 
Jippy said:
So the 8am press conference slipped to 10am and now they saying Johnson and Ursula von der Leyen are due to have a call 'shortly' and the timing of the announcement now seemingly unspecified.

Oh god, it's a 2,000+ page document, so will be plenty to sift through, with stories dribbling out from it no doubt, over the next few days. Mindful of the 'good day to bury bad news' mantra here.
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As I understand it, talks haven't yet finished between negotiators and they are still talking fish.

Through the night, the lights have been on and they have been talking species by species, herring by herring, mackerel by mackerel.

I am aware I keep saying this and the time has been slipping, but we are maybe an hour away from a deal being announced.

And then we will get those crucial details in the next few hours - things that will affect us, like rules on when I am driving in the EU, pet passports, medical insurance.

Hopefully we will get some more light on that as the day continues.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-55433447
 
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