The belief that falls in between that dichotomy is that while it is recognised that both the UK and the EU are acting in their own self-interest, the UK are standing up for themselves and require no special favours from the EU, they expect to be treated like anyone else would in the same scenario, they expect a basic level of fairness, and the EU are instead seeking their pound of flesh. That's been the line for the last few weeks now. The EU are treating us like we are still under their control, placing demands that they wouldn't of other sovereign nations, and we won't stand for it. We will uphold our sovereignty 'til death, and the EU need to get with the program. Doesn't seem to be harming them much. At least for the moment. Eventually reality will set in and then they'll just blame someone else.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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The belief that falls in between that dichotomy is that while it is recognised that both the UK and the EU are acting in their own self-interest, the UK are standing up for themselves and require no special favours from the EU, they expect to be treated like anyone else would in the same scenario, they expect a basic level of fairness, and the EU are instead seeking their pound of flesh. That's been the line for the last few weeks now. The EU are treating us like we are still under their control, placing demands that they wouldn't of other sovereign nations, and we won't stand for it. We will uphold our sovereignty 'til death, and the EU need to get with the program. Doesn't seem to be harming them much. At least for the moment. Eventually reality will set in and then they'll just blame someone else.
But whatever is fair or unfair, an agreement will be made if both sides are happy. The difference between the UK and any other third country is their geographical proximity , which is a vital point in this discussion.
Whatever happens the UK cannot blame the EU nor can the EU blame the UK.
The Uk have decided to leave, if they're not happy with what's happening now they can leave without a deal, that's their sovereign decision as was their decision to leave in the first place.
Another significant point is that the EU obviously has no faith in the UK government to keep their word with the IMB bill still be considered and the UK acting as if they are being generous by dropping the relevant clauses. This is unbelievable.
Correct Paul, and it is exactly why it will be a 'no deal' decision.
This is the real fear for the EU, that a UK outside their rules is a competitor in their own backyard. For the UK, it is will it take the initial 'hit' of a 'no deal' outcome, so it can, over time, become the 'Wolf at the EU's door' (forgive the pun!)?
Its perhaps a 'bridge too far' for both sides; but, undercover of Covid-19, both sides may escape their collective failure/fate, because other priorities will loom that require close working between both sides, the post -Brexit era looms for both sides.
The poll is tight!
I don't understand why talks wouldn't continue even if no deal is reached.
Why would the UK not want as many trade deals as possible. I thought these talks were accelerated to avoid the UK crashing out.
Maybe I've misunderstood but it seems silly to get to 90-98% done and then decide to stop altogether because it wasn't finished this year.
What makes you think that?
To answer several people at the same time, for the same reason the TTIP failed. Politicians use the percentage rethoric to obfuscate because there have things that you need to imperatively agree on otherwise everything else is meaningless in this case governance is an example, if you can't agree on governance and both sides aren't close to each others then the rest is worthless.
That small proportion of disillusioned leave voters just didn't materialise in 2018 or 2019, when we had the calls for the second referendum and then the election. I'm really using my northern relatives as a proxy for other ardent leave voters. I've heard "it's bound to be tough for a bit, but will be fine in a couple of years", "it's still worth it" and "well, all politicians lie anyway" way too many times to have any hope of the majority of them switching sides.
The only thing that caused a brief wince from my mother was when she was saying how she had to think about future generations when she voted and I pointed out that it's all but killed her nieces' chances of studying and working on the continent.
If that 5% or whatever outstanding boils down to fundamental ideological differences, then how do you move forward? It's clearly bonkers if you're crowing about a tiny trade deal with Cabo Verde while ignoring the trading monolith that accounts for half of your economy next door though.
The FT has been running this feature prominently for the last couple of days. I won't post the whole thing so they don't hound Niall, but it uses the TTIP example @JPRouve mentioned, along with a couple of others.
The rationality of a no-deal Brexit
https://www.ft.com/content/c6ae94cc-cc21-4a07-93b9-29aa940163ef
Oh no I don't, that's just the UK line that's came directly from the government and its supporters in the mainstream media. Been building up for a while. That's their proactive defence for why things aren't working out.
The EU are being mean, not in a tough negotiator kind of way, but in a borderline unethical way. And it's turned into a nationalist statement when they say that the EU are doing this because they don't seem to recognise we've left, we are sovereign, they are acting like we're still under their control and will agree to their dictates.
There's grains of truth that mostly cover up the fact the UK are in a weak negotiating position and can't generate a good agreement, they now accept the EU don't need them as much as Brexiteers believe they do, and so it needs to be spun into the EU not agreeing with our entirely reasonable and gentlemanly requests.
But there's also a lot of misinformation about complicated details that I can't be bothered reading in depth, so I dont fully understand the specifics they're arguing over. I just know that's how they're spinning it.
I am flabbergasted by the proportion of people still expecting a deal. A deal (for 1st January) is already off the table.
Neither the UK nor the EU want to admit it right now, because of the potentially negative PR.
I fully agree with the part that you quoted. People need to understand that any deal isn't a good idea either and that each side can have rational divergencies that can't be easily amended. Now the issue for the UK is that they need a deal with the EU while the EU could and should have a deal with the UK but doesn't need it, at least not immediately.
All of that comes down to what I mentioned earlier in the thread 2024 should have been the brexit target but by trying to rush things and play political games everyone put itself in a bad situation.
Isn't this the WA we already had agreed?
We've just removed the offending matters our side, so less an agreement and more a U turn?
When do the 300A vote dumps occur?
Yep, the one Boris signed and then reneged on.
And meanwhile, in Brexit Dividend land...
Brexit: Fears of food supply disruption growing, MPs told
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55230463
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"We have now agreed with the EU that the UK will no longer break international law"
"we are going to break the law unless you give us what we want"
"no you aren't"
"we aren't going to break the law, now give us what we want"
Or at least until the ERG threaten to break Boris's legs.
Brexiters, look what you forced this man to do!
Married senior government lawyer, 55, who took 'upskirt' pictures of woman on the Tube AVOIDS being struck off after blaming stress of working 80-hour weeks planning for Brexit
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...DS-struck-blaming-Brexit-planning-stress.html
Married senior government lawyer, 55, who took 'upskirt' pictures of woman on the Tube AVOIDS being struck off after blaming stress of working 80-hour weeks planning for Brexit
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...DS-struck-blaming-Brexit-planning-stress.html
I'll be very very vague but my missus dealt with an issue with this guy at his new employment
Is he still employed? The 'his wife was ill at the time' defence is arguably worse than the Brexit one.I'll be very very vague but my missus dealt with an issue with this guy at his new employment
@horsechoker I completely forgot to mention something when answering your question. People need to keep in mind that in general trade deals are done in a context of convergence meaning that the current deal is supposed to be the base for a potential deeper relationship but in the case of Brexit we are in a context of divergence, the UK decided that they wanted to be gradually farther from the EU/EEA and that makes almost everything more complicated in particular when it comes to governance and LPF clauses because both sides know that they most likely don't have compatible projects.
Yeah he is, don't think it was anything that bad to be fair just funny seeing it pop up on the daily mail. Not for him though i imagine, he should definitely change his name
Oh yeah, I wouldn't describe it as the wistful conjecture of remainers.
It's more about considering the impact of the vote and if people who voted Brexit will change their mind.
Regarding the lies, I wonder how many people will never re engage with politics again after voting Brexit and believing the hype.
The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) forecasts that real GDP will be 1.5 per cent lower in five years than its current central GDP assumption if London and Brussels do not strike a deal.
Important but not half the economy.
Or as the guy says in Margin Call this is where it becomes a projection.
Important but not half the economy.
Or as the guy says in Margin Call this is where it becomes a projection.
Ive not seen the stats but I think just over 72% of the population voted in the referendum ad the turnout in the last election was 68%
so probably not that many is my gut feel
The deal will be reached in the months of January/February when the brexit realities will come down in full colors and the pressure will mount on the British side. EU know this, UK can bluff all they want.
Important to note that's on top of the GDP hit from a Brexit deal which was around 4%. At least I'm fairly sure it is.
It sounds like small numbers of course but that's a very real hit and represents a lot of jobs lost.
Ahhh a meeting on Wednesday so Ursula can take it to the summit on Thursday and the EU leaders can decide the fate of sovereign Britain ... take back control (so we can give it to macron)... well played brexiteers
Even the briefings are all over the place.
4% is quite a significant difference with regard to Brexit, if you recall.
The lies have not fully materialised yet. Too early to say.
Another day, another Brexit-backing billionaire who has since moved abroad reneged on a promise to build their new factory in the UK.
Ineos boss opts to build 'British' heir to Land Rover Defender in France
Vocal Brexiter Sir Jim Ratcliffe vowed to make new Grenadier 4x4 in Bridgend but has now bought car plant at Hambach
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...british-heir-to-land-rover-defender-in-france
Ineos boss opts to build 'British' heir to Land Rover Defender in France
Vocal Brexiter Sir Jim Ratcliffe vowed to make new Grenadier 4x4 in Bridgend but has now bought car plant at Hambach
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...british-heir-to-land-rover-defender-in-france
To be fair Ratcliffe delocalized his own self, so it's only natural that his businesses follow.