I doubt retired English people can account for 52% of people living in Wales voting leave though unless they are very persuasive retired English people.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
I doubt retired English people can account for 52% of people living in Wales voting leave though unless they are very persuasive retired English people.
I can see how with your fine grasp of numerical data you thought voting for brexit was a smart choice
Except I didn't vote Brexit I voted remain. So where does that leave your grasp on anything, tenuous at best.
That study isn’t suggesting that the entirety of the 52% of people in Wales who voted leave were all retired English people.
I don't think any of that is particularly relevant to my question though. I'll elaborate a bit.
NI was a huge painpoint in the Brexit negotiations, to make sure it stayed properly within the UK, the Good Friday agreement could continue, etc. That's an important part of the reason why part 1 (Brexit) of the negotiations took forever. What we are discussing here, is that the UK government for the trade agreement negotiations (part 2) now apparently wants to renege on some of the stuff that was agreed upon in part 1, including the situation with NI. That was unthinkable previously, which one might have thought was because of a will to keep NI fully integrated in the UK; but given the apparent change of heart now regarding that clause in the Brexit agreement, it seems the previous concern with NI was due to the need for DUP support for the government, not because of an actual interest in the region - regardless of the percentage of people in NI that voted in favour of Brexit.
As for Scotland: a no-deal Brexit (or similar) goes against what a strong majority over there would like to see given the best scenario (again: regardless of who actually voted for it), and will fuel talk of secession.
You're right that the majority of the UK's population live in England + Wales, and I am not all disputing that the UK government can do what it wants and has the mandate for that. I am just asking how much they care about ensuring NI and Scotland stay happy and won't want to secede. The answer seems to be 'not much'.
Obviously, the idea is that, if you take these people out of Wales, the remaining population would have a remain majority. Not that ONLY these retirees voted leave.
65% of Scotland voting remain isn't really a myth though is it? It is a fact that if the celtic parts of the Union's vote carried the same weight as England's we'd be remaining.
Clearly, the population of England dwarfs that of the other nations, and that is democracy in action, but it is hardly a myth that Brexit had a more significant proportionate backing in England than in the other nations. You have cited the results yourself.
So, yes, it is a threat to the Union and a palpable one and that threat is considered by the UK to be less important than pursuing their Brexit objectives. This is no myth.
The bolded bit was actually exactly my question.
So do you agree this week's actions/statements concerning the trade deal they're currently negotiating indicate that the UK government is prioritizing the deal over the union even more, or is it just same-old?I know what he is saying but again it is only to make the narrative fit that only English people voted Brexit which is untrue and quite unpopular to point out as you can see.
Significant numbers of people though a minority in those countries also voted to leave in Scotland and NI. These are not tiny fractions of those populations by any means. If voting leave is so unconscionable that only the (pick your own superlative ) English would do so then how come so many Scots and Welsh and N Irish also voted leave.
I'm not sure what your point is here? Clearly people voted both ways in each country. No-one is saying otherwise. In a binary referendum it'd be fairly surprising if that were not the case. However, the population density of England naturally decides UK voting patterns (see also current Tory Govt).
It is the case that significant majorities, especially in Scotland, voted to remain in the two countries at most risk of leaving the Union as a consequence of Brexit. This is true.
Brexit was much more popular in England and Wales than in Scotland and NI. This is also true.
Pursuing the current Brexit policy puts significant strain on the Union and that is known and deemed acceptable. This is true.
I'm not sure why you see this as the creation of a narrative.
Just watched Tory government cabinet member Andrew Bridgin on Channel 4 News giving his views on the negotiations between the EU and UK.
Unbelievably arrogant:
The EU has much more to loose than the UK if a deal cannot be agreed.
The EU will have to give the UK the deal it wants because the member states will force the negotiators to agree.
And because of the strict handling of the negotiations, Barnier will be sidelined.
Isn't life simple when you have no understanding of reality...
Unbelievably arrogant:
The EU has much more to loose than the UK if a deal cannot be agreed.
The EU will have to give the UK the deal it wants because the member states will force the negotiators to agree.
And because of the strict handling of the negotiations, Barnier will be sidelined.
Isn't life simple when you have no understanding of reality...
Apart from voting demographics, what I am curious about: what would those Scotland and NI Brexit voters think if the current trade agreement negotiations lead to a no-deal Brexit after all (which is what's currently being threatened, I think), that leaves NI in unclear territory? That question is irrelevant for England and Wales, since no-one is considering their departure from the UK. But if a good part of that 35% in Scotland and 44% in NI is against this type of Brexit, then the secession issue is seriously on if the Tories continue on their current path.
For that to be the case each Celtic vote would need to be counted nine times for each English one or the quadruple lock proposed by Salmond. At that point there would be no Union to worry about endangering with Brexit.
I'm not denying any of those stats, as you stated I cited them.
There is a threat to the Union of going through any form of Brexit and not going through with Brexit also.
Do you know what are the actual arguments behind any of that? I mean: the EU is much larger than the UK; there is no clear separation between what the EU wants and what its members want; and why would Barnier be sidelined as long as he is following the direction outlined by the EU leadership? I just don't get why the Tories would think any of this is true. (Or maybe they don't, and this is all just bluster as part of the negotiations?)
I live in a 60% leave area in England so the Brexiteer views I hear might not be shared in other parts but I haven't met anyone who would change their vote because of no deal yet.At least they have never said so.
I am minded of Orwell's views on Mein Kampf. "that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades".
Well, quite. Hence it is the votes of England that resulted in Brexit. Not Scotland, for example, which voted overwhelmingly to the contrary. Hence why people say the English voted for Brexit and not Scotland and NI and the risks to the Union by pursuing the current path are very real. It's not a mythology. England voted for Brexit and it's occurring for that reason.
Probably because nobody gave a toss about trade deals when they were voting for Brexit. It is, was, and always has been, about immigration.
Leave won by 1,269,501 votes. Scotland and Northern Ireland between them submitted 1,367,764 leave votes. If you want to be myopic and reductive about it, it was those Celts who pushed Brexit over the line.
Manchester voted 60.4% remain and London voted 59.9% remain. Those two major English cities were let down by the rest of the UK.
Manchester voted 60.4% remain and London voted 59.9% remain. Those two major English cities were let down by the rest of the UK.
You’re not wrong, a lot of Welsh people voted for leave. Areas like the valleys voted leave despite having benefitted a great deal from the EU. That study that portrayed the leave vote as due to elderly English expat communities could be wrong or right, but in the 2019 elections the Welsh vote consisted of 70% remain parties. I wouldn’t be confident at all saying Wales wants to leave.
IMO Brexit is an English nationalist project that attracted non Nat out riders here and there, but that's its core I reckon, that's the underlying flame that's being fanned. I don't think the Tories are a unionist party anymore, not in their hearts. And if there's one thing nationalists love to do, is define themselves against their bigger neighbour, ie the EU. I think the Union is toast because theres too many people who can see an advantage in it ending.
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Any sensible person with a modicum of intelligence knows that none of this is correct.
Worryingly for the UK there are millions of British citizens who will believe that this is true.
Unfortunately it is clear that only cold hard reality will make them realise that they've been the victims of an enormous con trick. Of course they won't admit that even in the depths of despair.
Yes, but all I said was that not only English people voted for Brexit. That is the nationalist narrative and its designed to washes away 35% of Scottish votes for leave to make this a false solely English versus Scottish dichotomy because it suits. While pretending injustice on the imposition on its UK based minority view it hopes to do just the same come IndyRef2 to remainer Scots with far greater consequences than the UK leaving the EU.
What a legacy that would be for the Tories. Isolated the country from Europe and then oversaw its disintegration.
It's not terribly far-fetched.
There's a type of revolutionary Brexit ultra who is prepared to burn everything down in pursuit of the purest form of Brexit and tragically this is the gallery the "conservatives" have been playing to all through this wretched affair.
Strip out the ni mp's and the Scottish though and the conservatives probably walk most uk elections
Hard to know when the pendulum is going to swing. At the moment, the brexiters have the advantage of being able to say what they like without any real consequences but that's going to end soon. At the end of the day it'll be retail politics which sinks this ship.
Amazingly, some on the left supported Brexit for a similar reason: get out of the neoliberal EU so the UK can plot a more leftist course. They must be playing the longest long-game in history, cause I really don't see the UK (especially without Scotland) move to the real left (forget about centre-left, that wasn't the point) any time soon...
Reality is getting closer and until it happens the Brexiters won't believe it will be a disaster. Until now it's all bluster as although the UK have left the EU they are still having the benefits of the single market and the customs union plus all the thousands of other benefits.
Next year that all stops or most of it will even with a trade deal of whatever magnitude. The effects will of course start sooner if the talks die in the next few weeks or Johnson actually breaks the WA and/or the GFA.
And Scotland voted 62% to remain so what the feck are you on about? Manchester, London, Northern Ireland, Scotland, all of them were let down by the regions that voted for Brexit.
Hell, even the people who voted FOR Brexit have been let down because they were sold a pack of lies. We should create a new country. It'll have worse borders than Palestine but screw it, we can use HS2 as a private shuttle.
We will see the return of the "plucky British loser" before too long - what Irish people used to call a certain type of Brit amateur who keeps fecking it up but wants points for trying. Thats our politics at the moment and it'll be our economics too before too long.
He voted for it.
Honestly I have no idea. It was not only the sheer arrogance of him, but the smug look on his stupid face. Like we have all the cards and the EU will have to capitulate to our demands.
I totally agree with you. It smacked of colonial Britain of the long and distant past. But the Tories are trying and in far too many cases convincing people that the EU and the rest of the world will grovel at our feet and bow to our wishes.
It is just madness. We are being governed by megalomaniacs and halfwits with little or no comprehension of the real world.
So. Boris Johnson Brexit Withdrawal Agreement which he repeatedly told us that it was a great deal, never made sense in the first place. You can say that again Boris.
This is a government characterised by incompetence, incoherence and bare faced lies.
This is a government characterised by incompetence, incoherence and bare faced lies.
This is fine.
Wait until they realise America are the guarantors of the GFA and they take that seriously.
They may have got away with it if nothing was signed but actually going back on an agreement kills them. Theyll be told what to do soon enough.
I am sure I remember very early on in the Brexit talks Theresa May declaring that from the UK standpoint "Nothing is agreed ,until everything is agreed" "So, the first part the WA is agreed, but until the second part the Trading situation is agreed... actually nothing is agreed, nothing is concluded!
Hence if the second part is not agreed, then the first part falls and everything goes 'tits up'
Hence if the second part is not agreed, then the first part falls and everything goes 'tits up'
Ah thanks, I was really struggling to understand what "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" meant until you added the 2nd bit there.