Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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So something changed between 1975 and 2016?
Fear?
Why fear?
I could say that a lot of people who voted remain were institutionalised wet behind the ears youngsters who don't even know what the EU is.
Concern about too much immigration, and the effects of it on our infrastructure, is not a concern born out of racism. It's common sense. Whether or not brexit would solve this, is another issue.
in fact, i'm going to be very bold and say many things changed in 40 years.
I think young people know full well what the EU is. The issue is that they see it as something fundamentally different to you and can tolerate something far different to you. And the reality is that my children for example feel more of an affinity to Europeans their age than they do many of the lovely people who voted for Brexit.
I know that this is something that offends Boris and probably you. But it is the reality. What will be interesting for me is how that generation reacts in 20-40 years time when they become the dominant political group.
Have to laugh again though at the racism debate though. I know we're all down in the dumps about Brexit. I know the UK, like many countries, has problems with racism and there has also been an uptick in it since Brexit (god knows, I and one of my sons have experienced it). However, to pretend that the UK is some hotbed of racism while the rest of Europe is some kind of sea of tolerance. Give over ffs. I did have a particularly good chuckle at 'people in France aren't very xenophobic towards other EU citizens'.
Ah that's ok then. As long as the Europeans are protected from the worst excesses of it, its fine.
I don't think it will take 20 years
But yeah I'm pretty sure we end up with closer ties to the EU... Be that some bespoke but highly aligned deal, a Norway arrangement or back in fully (which is the least likley I think)
But I simply don't see the demographics playing out any other way
Perhaps not next election but certainly by the election after I think pretty much every party other than the conservatives will have some form of closer ties as part of their manifesto.
Looks inevitable to me and Boris taking his majority as a mandate to be prepared to accept a no deal scenario has set the benchmark for a future labour or even lab lib SNP green alliance to take a majority as their mandate for reintegration.
It's when not if as far as I can see and I'm certainly thinking under the 40 years... Even under the 20 years timeframe you mention
I was over in Bristol at the weekend and it was pretty surreal seeing the UK separated from the EU on all the signs in the airports. Probably the first time I've actually seen any real world "impact" from Brexit, minimal as it was.
So far the only thing that has changed is that the UK has lost its vote.
Freedom to do what. You still have to abide by the same regulations to export to whichever country you export to, be it within the EU or Australia or wherever.
Freedom to have a blue passport.
Even though you could do that anyway.
But still, freedom, yay!
Look at these smug fecks with their blue passports, it's like their holding up an iPhone 2 in 2020 after deciding to give up the iPhone 10. I suppose it won't matter for them, pay a few extra quid in the future to use the fast lane.
If you read the rest and not selected bits which suit you I said there was racism and xenophobia in all countries including France. This is the Brexit thread so the reasons France wouldn't vote to leave the EU because of immigration because even the racists realise that the people of other races (as in racists) as opposed to xenophobic (strangers) tend to not come from European countries.
I find all kinds of xenophobia and racism abhorrent.
Nobody is trying to say there isn't a problem in other countries, but trying to pretend there isn't a problem in the UK is ridiculous.
If France held a referendum they'd probably leave too. They're just as bad. But I don't think their Government would be stupid enough to do it.
I think a few countries would vote leave but it wouldn't be without the outside influence of certain people and groups who would try similar tactics to mislead people. As you said I doubt any country would offer the same referendum unless they go extremely right wing.
No chance.
I did read the rest of the post, I didn't come to that section by itself by chance. It is still ridiculous to state that the xenophobia against other EU citizens is barely there, that is a completely irrelevant statement to me. 'Oh they hate Indians but they're ok with Chinese'. What would be the point of that statement?
Anyone trying to pretend racism isn't a problem in the UK is an idiot. Anyone trying to pretend that racism didn't play a part in some people voting for Brexit is also an idiot. Anyone trying to pretend the racism in the UK is somehow unique and that there isn't a huge amount of racism in other EU countries, also has their head up their arse.
I think, with all due respect (and I believe we've covered this topic before), you present a slightly idealised face of France. Perhaps France would vote to leave, perhaps not. As MS said, their government is thankfully not stupid enough to do it. But let us not pretend that this isn't the country that has put the national front 2nd in multiple elections. And not just after Marine's attempt to soften the party but even with outright holocaust denier Jean-Marie too.
'We want to take back control of our migration policy'
Who said this? Farage? Boris? Patel? Le Pen?
Nope, Macron's PM a mere few months ago.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/
Interestingly, this PEW survey shows France as being one of the few countries with a more unfavourable view of the EU than the UK.
You live there so you probably know best but their approval ratings of the EU are pretty damning.
Staying in the EU is polling over 70% in France
Even Greece that you can make an argument for being screwed (disagree) are polling well over 60%.
Approval ratings and voting to leave are two very different things.
The National Front aren't advocating leaving the EU, that is the point of that statement.
It was polling well in the UK too before the referendum.
If you also asked most people on here, they'd have said of course we'll stay. This is a forum which heavily leans towards remain and most of our social circles lean that way too. I certainly have very few close friends or family who voted to leave.
In 2017, they were advocating for a return to the Franc, 6 months of negotiation with the EU to see if they would agree to a looser, purely economic based arrangement, followed by an in out referendum at the end of the negotiations.
She said she would recommend leaving the EU if she did not get the changes she wanted.
On top of that, she said she would immediately suspend the Schengen border-free area in France and reintroduce passport checks with its EU neighbours.
They were also proposing a limit to 10,000 legal migrants a year.
This is the election where she came 2nd in the 1st round, barely behind Macron and reached the run-off, getting a third of the total votes. This is the FN 'toning itself down'.
Edit: Took out the oh come on Paul as felt it was far too aggressive for the conversation. Apologies.
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Yes but when she realised she'd made a complete ass of herself in the 2017 debate, remembering that the Socialists disintegrated and the Conservatives had the Fillon meltdown which enabled her to get 2nd, she dramatically changed her tune and now wants to keep the Euro and so on, ie completely change her policy because she revealed herself to be economically illiterate and hadn't got a clue what she was talking about. But as you say there is a certain percentage of the population (as in any country) who don't like people who are different to themselves.
Priti Patel needs to get in the bin.
Yay, I don't have to change my or my family's red passports. Just checked we can use them up to expiry which is well into mid-late roaring 20s. 
Does anyone like the look of the blue passports?
If you take off your political spectacles I think they're good looking aesthetically. Once I put them back on they become a symbol of little England.
If you take off your political spectacles I think they're good looking aesthetically. Once I put them back on they become a symbol of little England.
The EU shouldn't bother answering. The UK is now a third country. It either accept the terms or it can bugger off.
This is how literally no negotiation in history works, unless we're talking about an utterly vanquished foe and the victors.
Same in Italy for citizenship, and the standard required is one I'll never reach! My British friend here recently passed the extensive language competency exams but she's absolutely fluent - even so, she said it wasn't easy.
Can't remember it polling above the 50s and in the months before the referendum it was virtually neck and neck.
In all, I don't think there are any EU governments under pressure to call a referendum.
They'll be under even less pressure in a few years once the Uk economy tanks.
That may or may not be true but the fact of the matter is, 1/3 of France voted for an openly racist party that had at its core (and still does, even if she is not quite as aggressive about a referendum currently) an anti-immigrant, anti EU and openly islamophobic platform (previously openly anti semitic too).
I think, with hardened attitudes and the internet being the internet, people seem to have become entrenched in some weird hyperbolic state where everything about the UK is utter shite, its a country populated by racists, the economy is going to tank and everyone hates the EU. While in mainland Europe, its all kumbaya and everybody loves the EU. It isn't quite as simple or as clear cut as that.
I don't think it is about criteria necessarily, it is just where is easiest for a lot of these migrants to go (though actually, I don't know why so many Turks go to Germany specifically).
If you're Colombian and looking to come to Europe, where is easiest for you to settle? Angolan? Moroccan? Ghanian or Nigerian? It's simply a matter of language and at time culture too. I believe Portugal and Brazil have an agreement for instance which allows their citizens to go easily between the 2 countries.
The EU don't have any rules for who comes to individual EU countries or the EU as a whole ( I think this is a point which has been rather misunderstood by both sides). If Spain decided to allow in the entirety of Spanish speaking South America tomorrow, they could do. I believe East Timorese born before the 1990s can get a Portugese passport too?
Some of the poorer EU countries have visas which allow you to invest a certain amount and get a visa/ quick road to nationality, which I believe has been used by some richer Russians/ Arabs/ Chinese to get an EU passport in case the shit hits the fan.
So its completely a country by country basis.
This sort of negotiations suggest 2 equal partners which isn't really the case. It's time for the EU to set the tone of these discussions. Unlike the UK the EU can afford walking out of the negotiation table and it's up to the UK to persuade it not to do it not viceversa
If trump can turn the UK into his bitch then so can the EU
I still have my pre-EU blue passport somewhere. Unfortunately, oates has to renew this year and I might as well at the same time. Get it over with ...
Actually, no it doesn't. At all. The EU has some kind of trade agreement (note, not necessarily free trade, just some kind of trade agreement) with about 50 countries.
Because of the size of the EU's economy (even without the UK), literally none of those agreements are between 2 equal partners. If such a negotiation were to take place between 2 equal partners, then there are 2 in the world, China and USA, neither of which have a FTA with the EU.
The only countries in the world outside of the EU, USA or China with a comparable economy to the UK are India (marginally bigger than UK), Japan (bigger than UK), Brazil and Canada (both smaller).
I would assume then that if you were leading the trade negotiations for the EU, you would walk in, set your demands with every country other than the USA and China and immediately storm out if the other country doesn't accept those demands?
Like I said, you're talking about a treaty of Versailles situation or a Japanese surrender post 2 atomic bombs. Total military defeat, with the country on its knees.
True but that is usually done with partners who are working in good faith. That's clearly not the case in terms of the UK who keeps insulting the EU, it keeps expecting it to work within its schedules and had littered the EU with a horde of red lines. Also you might not notice that the UK is now outside the EU which makes it a significant market just outside mainland Europe. Its a different scenario to that of Canada and Australia whose market differs to ours and therefore its within mutual interest to come out with a trade deal that helps both. No country had ever helped a direct competitor to thrive
Thus I insist, the best deal is to walk out of the negotiation table and let the UK creeping back begging for a deal on EU terms. Time is at the EU's side and the UK needs a deal with the EU as Congress has already made it pretty obvious that the US-UK trade deal will not be signed unless the GFA is respected. Thus the EU has the upper hand here cause no EU-UK deal would also mean no EU-US deal either. Maybe its also time for the EU to engage with Scotland in terms of a fast track route back into the EU just in case it decides to get its independence. The weaker the UK's hand is, the stronger the EU's hand will become.
PS, a no deal brexit will probably see the UK's economy shrink. However its nowhere near to being bombed by 2 atomic bombs or footing the entire bill of a world war. What's more likely to happen is for the Tory Party to vanish in thin wind having lost its credibility of a great post Brexit. Then the UK will return to the negotiation table with more realistic terms
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With respect, you're letting emotions cloud your judgement.
Thankfully, despite at times silly rhetoric, this is clearly not what is happening in the actual negotiations.
The UK isn't expecting anyone to work to its schedule. All it has said is that it won't extend the deadline beyond a year, not that a deal has to be signed by then. You will also notice that the EU has its own red lines, as is the case with any normal negotiation, whether its high level between countries or haggling at a local market.
The EU's own rhetoric, as well as that of individual member state leaders, show that they are rather less impressed with the prospect of no deal and the impact it would have on the European economy than you are and rightly so. Not coming to an agreement would be very harmful for both sides, not just the UK.
Scotland is of course welcome to claim independence (if they can actually get it over the line) but it would certainly very interesting to see how they would untangle themselves from the UK, considering they are economically, socially and culturally far more intertwined with the UK than the UK ever were with the EU. And we've all seen the clusterfeck that was the last few years in terms of trying to untangle.
The EU will not storm out of any negotiations and I think frankly you rather misunderstand the motivations of many people who voted to leave the EU if you think that the government would go crawling back to the EU if they did, whether that would be harmful to the economy or not.
But originally in the first round it was in the low 20s as were most of the parties. Only when it became a 2 horse race in the second round did it go up to 30+ because some didn't want Macron. If she hadn't got through to the second round, you wouldn't say that she got zero votes in France either.
No-one has said that there are not problems in other countries. Of course there are Eurosceptics in France. Of course there are stupid people who believe all the nonsense. Social media is a problem but at least we don't get much tabloid press ramming the bias down people's throats and Le Pen is rather seen as an object of ridicule. Her mate in the 2017 election behind the policies left and joined the Gilet Jaunes for the Euro elections and got less than 1%
What hasn't helped the UK is that when people are asked why they voted leave and what the benefits would be, you can't get a coherent answer other than immigrants have taken all our jobs or suchlike. All other responses are usually complete drivel and nonsense and lies.
Whether people voted for it or not, it's happened - now the nonsense has to stop and the Uk has to live in the real world which it still does not seem to want to do.