Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Cheesy]

Now we have Rudd refusing to rule out paid visas to visit the EU. Shitshow.

The whole thing has been from the start.

No one within the Tories thought to actually come up with their own vision for what post-Brexit Britain would look like. Not Cameron. Not Boris. Not May. None of them. That's despite them being, ya know, the fecking party of government who were going to deal with this.

So we might stay in the EEA. We might leave that and go a more isolationist route. We might leave in the single market. We might reduce immigration. When May says she doesn't want speculation on the issue it's because she doesn't have a fecking clue what she wants to do and is waiting to see whatever option she can spin best for her party to ensure she stays in power.

The whole affair has been an utter embarrassment from start to finish and the Tories have displayed their own incompetence through their lack of planning and foresight. How will we come out well in the negotiations when we don't even know what we want?

 

[Adisa]

"Brexit means Brexit" is the biggest bullshit going around. Politicians are slime. They create these mantras that don't really mean anything but the gullible will see it how they want.

 

[PedroMendez]

The whole thing has been from the start.

No one within the Tories thought to actually come up with their own vision for what post-Brexit Britain would look like. Not Cameron. Not Boris. Not May. None of them. That's despite them being, ya know, the fecking party of government who were going to deal with this.

So we might stay in the EEA. We might leave that and go a more isolationist route. We might leave in the single market. We might reduce immigration. When May says she doesn't want speculation on the issue it's because she doesn't have a fecking clue what she wants to do and is waiting to see whatever option she can spin best for her party to ensure she stays in power.

The whole affair has been an utter embarrassment from start to finish and the Tories have displayed their own incompetence through their lack of planning and foresight. How will we come out well in the negotiations when we don't even know what we want?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters


ignoring all the Nazi stuff, the comment is imo pretty good.

(...)
The bigger lie, which some Leave supporters may even have believed, was that there were no hard choices. We could have it all. Immigration controls, prosperity, access to EU markets, without compliance with EU laws… Whatever we wanted, at no cost at all.

Or as Boris Johnson, a politician who has never made the mistake of believing what he says, told his credulous supporters: “This is a great country and great economy and I think people know we can do brilliantly if we take back control.”

An honest version of Johnson (if you can imagine such a creature) would have gone to the Nissan car workers in Sunderland and said words to the effect of: we may be able to deliver the immigration controls you want if we leave the single market but there is a risk that you will lose your jobs if we do.

(...)

 

[Cheesy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters


ignoring all the Nazi stuff, the comment is imo pretty good.

It's very fair. Every time there's something that suggests we may lose out on an aspect of the negotiations, or that Brussels will play hardball over a particular matter, we see certain Brexiters talking about how this is the big bad EU trying to bully us when the reality is that they're merely trying to secure themselves the best deal they can and part of that may involve some serious concessions from Britain if we really want to leave the EU.

 

[Bury Red]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters


ignoring all the Nazi stuff, the comment is imo pretty good.

I'd say that's pretty much on the nail in all bar one aspect:

The cynicism of Johnson, Gove and Farage’s failure to lay out the difficult decisions shocked the naive. But these men were charlatans fighting a campaign they were prepared to win without honour.

should instead have read:

The cynicism of Johnson, Gove and Farage’s failure to lay out the difficult decisions shocked the naive. But these men were charlatans fighting a campaign without honour safe in their mistaken belief they would never win .

 

[Massive Spanner]

I'm pretty confident (and hopeful) that it'll never happen. They'll delay and delay and delay and the more evident it becomes as to how fecked they'd be without the EU the more the people will grow to accept that it's not happening, and probably eventually do another referendum to get the result they want or something.

This "Brexit means Brexit" bullshit is just May spouting nonsense to appease the Leavers in her early days as PM.

 

[Stanley Road]

Perhaps the ballot papers should only have one option, Remain

Thats seems fairer than giving people a choice, in a sort of saddam kind of way

 

[Zarlak]

Perhaps the ballot papers should only have one option, Remain

Thats seems fairer than giving people a choice, in a sort of saddam kind of way

Or perhaps it should never have been a choice at all. That sounds like more common sense. These things should not be for the people to decide, we elect our officials to do this for us. Asking somebody to vote on something they don't understand is in no way fair.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Perhaps the ballot papers should only have one option, Remain

Thats seems fairer than giving people a choice, in a sort of saddam kind of way

this is such a strange line of thought to me.

"hey we voted this way the first time, stick with it, regardless of what people think now"

we're talking about a decision that impacts the entire developed economy, could have a very negative impact on your country in the long run. if, at some point, it's felt that your population would actually prefer to not leave because they're realised that the entire campaign they previously voted for is based on lies and xenophobia, and the economic repercussions are way beyond what they expected, why the hell shouldn't a second referendum be allowed?

it annoys me that people think democracy is "once it's voted on, that's it done, end of discussion" - when that actually goes against the very definition of democracy.

Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon treaty first time and accepted it on a revote because the 'yes' campaign put across a far better argument as to why it's a positive thing for us.

 

[Bury Red]

Perhaps the ballot papers should only have one option, Remain

Thats seems fairer than giving people a choice, in a sort of saddam kind of way

If it were to be put to a public referendum then people should have been advised the honest pros and cons of both sides of the debate with no political games. Both sides of the debate were equally guilty of lying, playing political games and having no plan for the outcome of the referendum whilst our vile, lying press have spent years colouring the judgement of people against immigrants and the EU as the usual scapegoat for all our nations ills, particularly the self inflicted ones. To put it to a public vote in those circumstances was irresponsible in the extreme.

 

[Zarlak]

this is such a strange line of thought to me.

"hey we voted this way the first time, stick with it, regardless of what people think now"

we're talking about a decision that impacts the entire developed economy, could have a very negative impact on your country in the long run. if, at some point, it's felt that your population would actually prefer to not leave because they're realised that the entire campaign they previously voted for is based on lies and xenophobia, and the economic repercussions are way beyond what they expected, why the hell shouldn't a second referendum be allowed?

it annoys me that people think democracy is "once it's voted on, that's it done, end of discussion" - when that actually goes against the very definition of democracy.

Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon treaty first time and accepted it on a revote because the 'yes' campaign put across a far better argument as to why it's a positive thing for us.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Sums it up very well. Ian Hislop is great.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Or perhaps it should never have been a choice at all. That sounds like more common sense. These things should not be for the people to decide, we elect our officials to do this for us. Asking somebody to vote on something they don't understand is in no way fair.

Agree that there should never have been a referendum due to the ignorance on the matter of the large majority of UK voters.
Problem is that the people/politicians who should have had to make the decision are apparently equally as ignorant.

 

[Zarlak]

Agree that there should never have been a referendum due to the ignorance on the matter of the large majority of UK voters.
Problem is that the people/politicians who should have had to make the decision are apparently equally as ignorant.

They're not ignorant at all, they've very good at playing games and politics. Saying that the politicians are just as ignorant is an easy way to give a lot of people the excuse to rid themselves of personal responsibility and say 'how can you blame me for voting leave, the politicians played me!'. Of course they did. The people should have used common sense and should have recognised the games that were being played.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

They're not ignorant at all, they've very good at playing games and politics. Saying that the politicians are just as ignorant is an easy way to give a lot of people the excuse to rid themselves of personal responsibility and say 'how can you blame me for voting leave, the politicians played me!'. Of course they did. The people should have used common sense and should have recognised the games that were being played.

Yes the politicians played the public for their own personal gain and they are to blame for the mess the Uk finds itself in and will find themselves in if Brexit actually eventually happens, nevertheless the majority of the politicians have little idea of the massive task that is involved in untangling the Uk from the EU.

 

[Zarlak]

Yes the politicians played the public for their own personal gain and they are to blame for the mess the Uk finds itself in and will find themselves in if Brexit actually eventually happens, nevertheless the majority of the politicians have little idea of the massive task that is involved in untangling the Uk from the EU.

Absolutely, but anyone with half a brain should have realised that. I mean, it was pointed out about 539 times during the campaign. The public made the conscious decision to either ignore that they didn't know what they were going to do, or to believe that they did know, or to believe that somehow a process that includes amongst other mammoth tasks, the biggest ever up haul of our entire legal system would just all work out. I mean, people in this very thread have said things like 'you can't have a plan because it's never been done before'. This is so stupid, that you can't put that on politicians.

 

[soap]

Or perhaps it should never have been a choice at all. That sounds like more common sense. These things should not be for the people to decide, we elect our officials to do this for us. Asking somebody to vote on something they don't understand is in no way fair.

General elections are the same tbh

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Absolutely, but anyone with half a brain should have realised that. I mean, it was pointed out about 539 times during the campaign. The public made the conscious decision to either ignore that they didn't know what they were going to do, or to believe that they did know, or to believe that somehow a process that includes amongst other mammoth tasks, the biggest ever up haul of our entire legal system would just all work out. I mean, people in this very thread have said things like 'you can't have a plan because it's never been done before'. This is so stupid, that you can't put that on politicians.

They ignored all the warnings because it was classed as scaremongering. Ultimately people will believe what they want to believe and it won't be until reality smacks them fully in the face that they'll realise what a mistake they made.

 

[Zarlak]

They ignored all the warnings because it was classed as scaremongering. Ultimately people will believe what they want to believe and it won't be until reality smacks them fully in the face that they'll realise what a mistake they made.

I agree, but it's at this moment that instead of taking responsibility for the mistake they made, they'll blame the politicians.

 

[Dan]

No access to EU market without free movement - Irish PM tells Britain

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland-idUKKCN11I0RI

 

[Stanley Road]

If it were to be put to a public referendum then people should have been advised the honest pros and cons of both sides of the debate with no political games. Both sides of the debate were equally guilty of lying, playing political games and having no plan for the outcome of the referendum whilst our vile, lying press have spent years colouring the judgement of people against immigrants and the EU as the usual scapegoat for all our nations ills, particularly the self inflicted ones. To put it to a public vote in those circumstances was irresponsible in the extreme.

Well uk did vote in a leader that was prepared to walk away from the eu. So nobody that voted tory can complain imo.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rich-poor-research-one-per-cent-a7239306.html

Assuming the leave vote was a working class revolt as suggested, do you think people were "miss sold" an improvement in their circumstances by vote leave or was it just that they were so desperate for any change?

 

[Silva]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rich-poor-research-one-per-cent-a7239306.html

Assuming the leave vote was a working class revolt as suggested, do you think people were "miss sold" an improvement in their circumstances by vote leave or was it just that they were so desperate for any change?

Bit of both, you can't expect people in the shitter to keep voting for the status quo. And the longer it's ignored the more extreme the fringes they'll vote for.

 

[ThierryHenry]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rich-poor-research-one-per-cent-a7239306.html

Assuming the leave vote was a working class revolt as suggested, do you think people were "miss sold" an improvement in their circumstances by vote leave or was it just that they were so desperate for any change?

Both. I do think people who were desperate for any sort of change took a big leap into the dark with Brexit, because all the uncertainty allowed them to project their own wishes (on immigration, jobs, the NHS) onto it, alongside such a poor campaign from the remain camp. Votes obviously had far more impact than any general election we've had too.

 

[sun_tzu]

No access to EU market without free movement - Irish PM tells Britain

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland-idUKKCN11I0RI

In fairness I expect a pretty united front from all EU leaders on this point and it will be interesting to see how public in the UK opinion moves over the next few months as it seems many expect a deal with unrestricted access to the market but restricted movements - I wonder which people will value more if it becomes a binary decision

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

If the UK decides to accept restricted access to the single market, with reciprocal restrictions on access to the UK market and no free movement then I expect the problems of maintaining unanimity within the EU block to start. Given the referendum vote I think that should/will be the UK's starting position.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0913/816172-eu/

The EU doesn't sound united to me at all.

 

[berbatrick]

Prescient

 

[Stanley Road]

If the UK decides to accept restricted access to the single market, with reciprocal restrictions on access to the UK market and no free movement then I expect the problems of maintaining unanimity within the EU block to start. Given the referendum vote I think that should/will be the UK's starting position.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0913/816172-eu/

The EU doesn't sound united to me at all.

There was an article on dutch news the other day how the union is forming into mini unions, this on the day of the mini summit in greece for the southern countries. It was quite interesting .

 

[JPRouve]

There was an article on dutch news the other day how the union is forming into mini unions, this on the day of the mini summit in greece for the southern countries. It was quite interesting .

It's not new, the EU has always been divided in North and South. Historically France "lead" the south and Germany the North.

 

[ThierryHenry]

Prescient

Is this real?

 

[Abizzz]

It's not new, the EU has always been divided in North and South. Historically France "lead" the south and Germany the North.

Yeah I agree. And I actually think the "mini Unions" can be helpful to the entire Union by voicing concerns/interests/etc. that are typical to a region or anything else those countries have in common. It's not as if these "mini Unions" wanted to break away, they want to gather momentum to change the EU in a way they see as beneficial. We can ALL agree that there's a lot of room for improvement in the EU, so I see it as a positive...

 

[Adisa]

May dodging Brexit questions again.
"I don't want comment on negotiations" is another way of saying I don't know what is going on yet.

 

[berbatrick]

Is this real?

Source: https://theintercept.com/2016/09/13...-that-brexit-distracted-from-u-k-war-inquiry/

 

[Stanley Road]

It's not new, the EU has always been divided in North and South. Historically France "lead" the south and Germany the North.

This was a bit more than north and south, it was also about the eastern Europeans having their own little summit as they see the eu as unfair. there were others that weren't north and south but cba to look them up right now

 

[JPRouve]

This was a bit more than north and south, it was also about the eastern Europeans having their own little summit as they see the eu as unfair. there were others that weren't north and south but cba to look them up right now

Which is perfectly normal in the EU, it has always been like that. The late inclusion of eastern European countries will create a third group.

 

[Will Absolute]

Which is perfectly normal in the EU, it has always been like that. The late inclusion of eastern European countries will create a third group.

With their strong nationalism, and determination to defend their ethnic and cultural identity, the people of eastern Europe have scarcely a thought in common with the western liberal consensus within the EU. For them, Europe is security for national sovereignty and a cornucopia of economic opportunity - a marketplace to make money and bolster their hard-won independence against future Russian aggression, not a melting pot in which to lose their national identity in the happy-clappy Euro church.

These different ideas about the future direction of Europe are not reconcilable; sooner or later Europe's squabbling chickens will all come home to roost. It's only a matter of time until the feathers fly.

 

[JPRouve]

With their strong nationalism, and determination to defend their ethnic and cultural identity, the people of eastern Europe have scarcely a thought in common with the western liberal consensus within the EU. For them, Europe is security for national sovereignty and a cornucopia of economic opportunity - a marketplace to make money and bolster their hard-won independence against future Russian aggression, not a melting pot in which to lose their national identity in the happy-clappy Euro church.

These different ideas about the future direction of Europe are not reconcilable; sooner or later Europe's squabbling chickens will all come home to roost. It's only a matter of time until the feathers fly.

Since we pay for them, the western countries don't really care. If they don't want to be member of the EU, they can take their asses out of it, which is why Luxembourg didn't hesitate to state it quite clearly.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

If I recall from the campaign the remainers said this was never going to happen and the Brexit campaign were scaremongering about the EU for suggesting there was any such plan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37359196

 

[JPRouve]

If I recall from the campaign the remainers said this was never going to happen and the Brexit campaign were scaremongering about the EU for suggesting there was any such plan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37359196

I don't know what the remainers said but from what I can tell they were terrible because that subject isn't new and has been discussed for at least a decade now.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Urgh, Bbc just had a UKIP party political broadcast after the news. Shudder