Why would Labour negotiate their own deal and the add May's or Johnson's deal on the ballot?
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- Thread starter Silva
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Because their policy is to give people the choice. Note I also include no deal as one of the choices. It's generally acknowledged now that we are missing 'consent of the loser', and the way to deal with that is to give people all the options, not a restricted two, and demonstrate the result is as democratic as can be.
Because they know that their own deal (remaining in a magical customs union resplendent with unicorns where we benefit from all existing EU deals... Have a say over their future deals and also allow us to go out and negotiate our own deals) isnt actually possible... So the only deals that will exist in 3 months are Mays deal and Johnson's deal?
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You didn't use the word Unicorn. That has genuinely cheered me up.
Who decides what 'all the choices' are? And is that Labour's offer, i.e. which of the following Brexits would you prefer? I thought they are offering a confirmatory (of their deal) referendum? Hence, if Labour win a majority they should have a mandate for that.
Maybe they won't achieve their exact preference, but surely a softer version of both May's and Johnson's deals is realistic?
There is obvious substantial support for Remain and No Deal, Corbyn's deal would be that of an elected government as you say, just as the Tory deal is. A general election isn't just about brexit, if it was you wouldn't need a second referendum in the first place.
How would a referendum of limited choices generate consent of the losers? Many would say what they wanted wasn't given as an option, which is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Thanks... Edited and fixed
My initial thought was along these lines. But I've since been convinced that finding option for the second referendum will be difficult. In your example there is only 1 in 4 remain options. Surely this bill would be hard to get everyone to agree on?
I'm not sure lack of losers' consent got us to here. May's deal would have passed if it had had the consent of all of the winners, i.e. Brexiteers. Failing that, she could have compromised sufficiently to pass a deal acceptable to some remainers and most Brexiteers. We got to here because of Brexiteers kept shifting the goalposts towards a harder and harder version of Brexit and May's failure to reach out to the losers.
Regarding the election, if Tories win, we will exit with their deal. They will claim disingenuously that it is the 'will of the people', even if it most likely has no majority in the country. Presumably, the losers - remainers and soft Brexiteers among them- will have no choice but to consent to it.
Comapred to that, I think Labour's offer is likelier to get wide acceptance amongst the electorate.
Single transferable vote. Although there is only one remain option the first votes for the least liked option will go on to their next preference and so on, it would almost certainly come down to remain v the most popular leave option, which would be fair.
Look at this way, if there is merely a confirmatory vote then Farage's lot will say people only had a choice between crap remain and a crap deal, so the vote didn't count. Put no deal in as an option and they'd get what, 10%?, they would lose anyway, and would that not be a good thing?
If the Tories win I will be saying there should be a second referendum of all the choices, just the same. It looks like neither party will offer that, unfortunately.
I don't know a lot depends on where we end up on Friday 13th. If we are headed for a Tory/Brexit Party coalition then we might have been better leaving under Corbyn's softer Brexit deal 2 years ago.
I agree, no more General Elections either, we had one a few years ago anyway, that should do for the next 50 years.
Except the Tories are not offering one. So, it sounds like you are holding Labour to a higher standard of fairness.
He never got to negotiate a deal so we don't know what the deal he would have got would have looked like. I just don't think it would have been as bad as a Tory/Brexit Party deal would be.A deal that was never even on the table in the first place.
I see your point.
How many preference votes would you put in? Just 2, or 3? That's 4 options with at least 2 preferences minimum.
At what point, in your opinion, does it become too complicated for a public vote?
I don't think ranking 3 or 4 as 1,2,3,4 is too complicated. I would choose STV for general elections personally, but that's another subject again.
They were going to gather in front of the shiny new theatre that was built with funding from the EU, and across the road from a load of empty shops and businesses.
The Brexit question was a ridiculous one that really never should have been put to the people. Even people who are fairly clued up and actively interested don’t fully understand the complexities of Britains relationship with the EU and what a deal would entail. No one knew what leaving the EU meant. Customs Union? Single Market? Norway? Canada? Would Brexit pass now that people realise the mess it it going to cause no matter the deal?
Not to mention the pure indefensible lies of the £350 million a week which would be put into the NHS, how many votes did that lie win? Also, no matter how much Brexiteers try to deny it, a huge chunk of votes were based on nothing more than xenophobia and “those bloody foreigners taking our jobs init”. Would people have voted for Brexit if they’d even stopped to consider the shit storm its going to cause in relation to a border in Ireland?
I think the question needs put to the people again for sure.
You just said we would have been better leaving under a non-existent deal, which no one knows anything about. I don't think so.
Than one backed by the Brexit Party?
They don't back either May's or BJ's deal.
Any deal is better than no deal. Unfortunately, I can't see anyway out of this shit. Unless there is another hung Parliament and somehow we get a second referendum out of it.
That's what I mean it would have to be a worse deal than is on the table now or no deal for them to back the Tories.
But that is an utterly pointless Brexit, what's the point in leaving to stay so close to the EU? It satisfies neither Brexiteers nor Remainers. The whole thing is a shit show though and there are no easy outs. Let's just have another Civil War and chop the Queen's head off.
Everyone needs to understand the nuances of each plan. Would it not discourage non politically motivated people?
I may be playing devils advocate here though. Because I do agree that another referendum is probably the only way to go. We are in such a mess that putting complex questions to the public may be the only way to resolve.
Corbyn's proposal two years ago was impossible but even supposing it was, it wasn't a soft Brexit. Being in a customs union (like Turkey) and conducting your own trade policy would mean a customs border ( big trouble for the UK and NI/Irish border). Secondly removing Freedom of movement automatically rules out the Single Market. So it was more of a dead duck than May's deal, which still remains the best realistic possibility so far without actually remaining but it's a long way removed from Remain.
If Corbyn proposes the same nonsense again in the 2019 manifesto...it's really beyond belief.
The account looks to be only a week old but it doesn't seem like a troll account.
Does it not? I mean, he's retweeting some random "jokes" from other folk. Thought it was a wind up personally.
Yeah mostly likely although this stuff had thinking it might be not a troll account
Just sounds like one the tories on here. Might be giving him too much credit calling him a troll.
@Sweet Square are you @TheUKMovement?
So the people will have a choice between Labour's deal, which will include freedom of movement, and Remain, also with freedom of movement. Which is great for those that want freedom of movement, but those that do not won't exactly have a choice will they? Corbyn must be hoping there aren't too many of them around in five week's time, and Farage has been hiding under a rock somewhere I suppose. Glad his position's clear now anyway.
Seems like a good policy to me
If you want to have a chance of severing all ties with the EU vote the Brexit party. *
If you want to have a chance to leave in a non damaging way vote Labour. *
If you want to have a chance at remaining vote Labour. *
If you want to have a chance at leaving with the current deal vote Conservative. *
If you don't really care what happens but want to feel like you did something anyway vote remain alliance Lib Dem, Plaid & Greens. *
If you're a racist cnut vote UKIP. *
If you're an idiot don't vote. *
* not you personally but the population in general.
You've highlighted the problem with Corbyn's approach/potential deal but you can apply the same deductive reasoning to absolutely anyone's approach. 17.4m voted for Brexit and there is hundreds of different interpretation/expectations. If you get a deal it will be considered too soft a Brexit by some and too hard by others and the other half of the country don't want a deal at all.
It's funny how Boris's position doesn't come under the same scrutiny.