Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

They could do it on all the other product but you still pay 20%, don't kid yourself they are happy to make you 5%.

Very good point, if the minimum standard is 15% and the UK really wanted to help households pay less VAT, they do have a shit load of wiggle room. Wasn't it only 5 years ago the UK (not Europe), raised the standard UK VAT by 2.5% to "boost tax revenues to cut its deficit". They could always drop it to 17.5% again.. won't happen though.

I think @Nick 0208 Ldn also needs to remember that the UK were part of the original decisions in enforcing these minimums on the EU member states.

 

[Mozza]

Well it was a pretty deep stream then. 270k a year isn't a trifling matter.

Less than 0.5% of the UK population

 

[Wibble]

Instead of being snide, you could explain why the rate of VAT on UK energy bills is best determined by the EU? In a time of increasing fuel poverty, governments are bound by a tax higher than they would otherwise set.

So we should leave the EU because you don't like the rate of VAT on energy? Seriously?

Seems like a very minor thing to worry about compared the massive and all encompassing benefits of being a member. Doubly so give the rebates we have that others don't.

 

[Wibble]

20% of all cars made in germany are sold in UK and about 10% of all BMWs made globally are sold in UK.

Any person of sound mind will call that a humongous market.

Not big enough to set up manufacturing.

 

[AshfordLad]

Not big enough to set up manufacturing.

Heights of delusion. Considering a typical facility produces 5-10k vehicles a month. UK sales for BMW alone average 20k a month.

JLR will be licking their lips at the prospect of the german car makers shooting themselves in the arse.

 

[devilish]

Well if that option is not available each company will have to weigh up a significant number of variables in order to ascertain the best way forwards
Eg what will any increased costs actually be
Can the get the UK government to ammend the tax codes for example to offset any additional cost as tax deductible?
What would be the cost to move operations to a new country... would you sell your existing factory knowing a competitor could use it and the local skill set to quickly challenge.
And thousands of other variables
And whilst the government of Japan rightly voices the car industries concerns they also have the likes of Hitachi pushing for tens of billions of pounds worth of contracts to build nuclear reactors for the UK...
It won't be full on doom and gloom and neither will it be rule Britania... probably a very bumpy ride for something not dramatically different to the status quo though as the smaller party the odds are we end up holding the shitty(ish) end of the stick

Also if you take Honda for example they have produced 74413 cars in Europe this year so far and 2,855,654 worldwide
Whilst 2.6% is not irelavent it's not going to be their primary focus (figures from Honda plc monthly financial statement August 2016)
http://world.honda.com/investors/financial_data/monthly/

Well if Honda and Nissan leave the country because its not worth remaining there then I doubt others will take their place. They came to the UK to sell to 500m consumers without paying any tariffs. They'll end up with just 67m. Surely in the UK there's trained staff capable of doing the job. However there is the same expertise in other countries, whom unlike the UK will still have access to the single market, and were labour is far cheaper. Romania had been producing the Dacia for quite some time + in 2017 they will open a plant for Ford after they decided to move production from India to Romania. Slovakia has automobile plants that produce Volkswagen, Peugeot, Citroen and Kia and the Czech Republic produce Skoda.

Tariffs on a market which was previously free + higher salaries (due to control over immigration) will become a huge burden over these companies. Tax credit will help. However can the UK afford to reduce taxes to every business just to keep them there?

 

[devilish]

20% of all cars made in germany are sold in UK and about 10% of all BMWs made globally are sold in UK.

Any person of sound mind will call that a humongous market.

I wonder how many people can afford BMWs in the UK once the financial services move elsewhere

 

[AshfordLad]

I wonder how many people can afford BMWs in the UK once the financial services move elsewhere

It wont move since it can not move.

Plus financial services ppl dont drive BMWs. They drive Aston Martins.

 

[devilish]

It wont move since it can not move.

Plus financial services ppl dont drive BMWs. They drive Ashton Martins.

I doubt you'll get the financial passport needed to get access to the single market which will be a bit of a problem to the financial services

Seriously BMW are for wealthy people. If the UK's wealth go down the drain then less people would afford BMWs. I also wonder how many of those buying and driving those BMW are actually British. It doesn't strike me as the type of car a British citizen would buy if he's got the money

 

[AshfordLad]

I doubt you'll get the financial passport needed to get access to the single market which will be a bit of a problem to the financial services

Passporting is only a small part UK fin services. Unshackled from eu regulation, we will stop losing jobs to singapore and dubai.

I also wonder how many of those buying and driving those BMW are actually British.

We can safely say its not the low skilled eu migrants that we want to get rid off.

 

[devilish]

Passporting is only a small part UK fin services. Unshackled from eu regulation, we will stop losing jobs to singapore and dubai.

We can safely say its not the low skilled eu migrants that we want to get rid off.

It doesn't seem so, considering that nearly everyone in the UK wants the UK to retain its financial passport to EU

This does not concern only the low skilled EU migrants but also the skilled ones too. For example, we're planning to return home because after doing our calculations we're noticing we're better off there then here. Immigrants come to a country to gain experience and make money. If the money is slightly better, equal or less then what they earn in their country or elsewhere (Australia, US etc) then they move. The only reason we're still here is that we will wait until we get dual citizenship (we need to thank Farage for that bright idea), then we'll move to better pastures. Its a shame that most UK citizens cant do the same (Farage can despite being against freedom of movement)

Low Skilled migrants allows expenses to remain low. If control means less immigrants then it will translate into higher salaries which makes the business not competitive. There's an excellent article on this behalf which links the automobile industry to salaries


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...erman-car-giant-of-brexit-risks-a6908676.html

 

[Bury Red]

The vitriol in this thread.

Just to be absolutely clear for the hard of thinking I voted remain in the referendum as I have stated several times before.

The difference between us is that I don't want to attack everyone who voted differently to me and I understand that I'm in a minority. That has consequences and it might turn out to be a mistake and we don't know yet and we won't know for some time but the bigger mistake is dealing with it as people like you are dealing with it. All of the terrible things you accuse those who voted for Brexit of are pretty clearly doubly true of your own thinking.

Or do you think your posts are a great example of tolerance of difference?

On what basis have posters on this forum lost the right to such a simple thing as courtesy, and the respect due to one holding a different opinion? The UK decided against remained part of a political project that had slipped its leash, not the practice of cooperation and trade, or the abandonment of basic rights.

It is a singular irony of this debate, that many of those who would cry bigot are seemingly among the most intolerant of others.

What the government needs at this moment is an opposition seeking to uphold standards and the good qualities of the EU, rather than some peculiar wish for a Brexit Britain to suffer or ultimately fail. Brexit or no, there are still important areas of common ground; this should not be forgotten by those of Remain or Leave.

Posters on this forum have never had a right to courtesy and respect, particularly mine and particularly in the CE forum. I've always said it as I see it without hiding feelings and if my comments hurt because of the opinions you hold then I'd take a look at your own opinions first or come back with a decent counter argument. I've not called out specific posters for criticism but have responded to posts I disagree with to make my counterpoint, if you find that yours was one of those posts then all that means is that we have differing opinions. If I make a comment like "This really is an island of petty minded, vicious little bigots isn't it." then it is my opinion on observation of the state of our nation, believe me, if I thought there was incontrovertible that you were the vicious minded little bigot in question I'd not be beating about the bush.

Bill, I know how you claim to have voted and will take your word for it but the majority of your posts in this thread follow the Farage and Mail line and that's a road so congested with vitriol and intolerance that I have to chuckle when you cry victim over a few words on an internet forum. Nick, you've probably been the sole Brexit voice on here that has not followed that path and wherever possible I have attempted to debate your financial and political critique of the EU but occasionally you might get a lick from the edge of the broad brush you need to cover this whole discussion.

As for tolerance, I can't, don't and won't ever tolerate racism and xenophobia. From physical clashes with NF and BNP thugs on the streets in the 80s through to cutting off large chunks of my own family for their archaic views including not speaking to my own sister for 3 years, I'll confront the most vile trait of humanity as and where I see it. If that makes you feel a little itchy then maybe you should stop lying down with dogs.

Despicable post.

And might I add - the typical "for the greater good" far-left bullshit.

We can safely say its not the low skilled eu migrants that we want to get rid off.

So mine's a despicable post full of far-left bullshit but I shouldn't be allowed to call somebody who has views on who we "want to get rid of" out as sounding a bit like someone with a final solution.

All this scratching is making me itch.

 

[Drifter]

Theresa May refuses to commit to Brexit pledges on immigration and NHS

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...arantee-brexit-pledges-on-immigration-and-nhs


Brexit: MPs to debate calls for second EU referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271417

 

[GloryHunter07]

Looks like Brexit and the points based system wont solve everything after all

 

[Untied]

Tell's you everything about UK politics that more attention is devoted to whether or not there were empty seats on a train than the empty promises made by Vote Leave

 

[Wibble]

Heights of delusion. Considering a typical facility produces 5-10k vehicles a month. UK sales for BMW alone average 20k a month.

JLR will be licking their lips at the prospect of the german car makers shooting themselves in the arse.

I'm sure it is that simple.

Especially given the UKs wonderful record producing quality mass produced cars.

 

[Wibble]

We can safely say its not the low skilled eu migrants that we want to get rid off.

Why would you want to get rid of people who do jobs that need doing but are hard if not impossible to get UK citizens to do?

A shortage of this type of labour was why we pushed for the expansion of the EU in the early 2000s and why we pushed for this to include free movement of labour. And it has been a success. A net benefit of 2.5 billion pounds per year.

 

[Wibble]

Despicable post.

And might I add - the typical "for the greater good" far-left bullshit.

Far left

And spot on. The whole leave campaign was designed around xenophobia.

 

[Wibble]

I wonder how many people can afford BMWs in the UK once the financial services move elsewhere

BMWs and the like will just cost more. I'd be really surprised if they suddenly decide to assemble them in the UK.

 

[GloryHunter07]

The Japnese lecturing anyone about economics is laughable. 25 years of economic stagnation and they still have not figured out how to pull themselves out of that hole.

Japan is just representing its businesses; which employ around 140,000 people in the UK btw. Probably worth at least listening to.

 

[Sweet Square]

Jesus this country is beyond stupid.

 

[JPRouve]

Jesus this country is beyond stupid.

More self-centered than stupid and I feel that it's the message that several foreign leaders tried to convey, Obama in particular.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm surprised people still belive in taking border back, Too many rules and saving money to NHS bullshit..... Despite backtracking by those who actually campaigned for it. Seriously?

 

[devilish]

BMWs and the like will just cost more. I'd be really surprised if they suddenly decide to assemble them in the UK.

That's the way I see it especially if the UK end up in recession.

 

[devilish]

Far left

And spot on. The whole leave campaign was designed around xenophobia.

Xenophobia, nostalgia of the empire and total ignorance on how the EU works.

Many think that the UK is actually able to pick and choose which deal they want because everyone is desperate to make business with them.

 

[devilish]

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/n...f_all_its_250_aircrafts_to_malta#.V81RS1srIps

EasyJet director Ian Davies said the conclusion of the base maintenance agreement meant that all of the airline's 256 carriers will be serviced by facilities in Malta.

"This means that, for the coming five years, up to four aircrafts will be on the island at a point in time to undergo maintenance," Davies said.

It is understood that EasyJet's decision to relocate its base maintenance to Malta was precipitated by the United Kingdom's decision to exit the European Union. But not only.

"We've been using facilities in Malta for the past six years and we are extremely confident in the technical ability and standards provided," Davies said, adding that they also received "value-added products".

 

[Zarlak]

So just to check, not wanting unskilled labour flooding into the country was either xenophobic or racist or both?

Considering that all the statistics available to us shows that a.) there is no flood, and b.) the labour isn't unskilled as migrants are actually typically higher educated than we are then I guess yes, it is to make that incorrect assumption. I guess it's easy though to buy into the Daily Mail's claims that half a billion uneducated immigrants pour into a town the size of Fordwich every week to steal both our jobs and somehow our benefits simultaneously but it doesn't make it true.

 

[Sweet Square]

More self-centered than stupid and I feel that it's the message that several foreign leaders tried to convey, Obama in particular.

Yeah I hope your right(As I guess, it would be only slightly better to live in a country is full of self centred arseholes rather than idiots), it's just that after listening to some of the reasons why people voted out I can't help but think stupidity was at the very for front to why Brexit happened.

An example(There are plenty)being my neighbour who admittedly is a giant pot head, voted out because of immigration, he thinks the reasons for the roads being so dirty(Yes I don't know what that means either)are because of the types of shoes immigrates wear. Yes there's xenophobe and self centreness redness involved but that's....well firstly bad shit mad and secondly so stupid that has to override any xenophobe and self centreness feelings.

As for Foreign leaders I think they view it as giant own goal. Although admittedly I haven't been that up to date with how everyone else is viewing this mess.

Xenophobia, nostalgia of the empire and total ignorance on how the EU works.

Many think that the UK is actually able to pick and choose which deal they want because everyone is desperate to make business with them.

Now come on Devilish that's a bit much

Oh

The Japnese lecturing anyone about economics is laughable. 25 years of economic stagnation and they still have not figured out how to pull themselves out of that hole.

 

[PedroMendez]

Are you saying that I am racist because I want my government to have control over the rules of who can reside in the UK?

That is not racist at all, but leaving the EU has massive implications for the future of GB. If migration is all that matters to you, Brexit might make sense, but you have to accept all the other consequences. The single market is built on the idea of the 4 freedoms (“free movement of goods, services, capital and people”). If you restrict one of those things, you can probably not be part of the single market. It is totally acceptable, if you think that being part of the common market is not a good idea anyway, but you can´t cry foul if this means some level of restrictions on the economy (e.g. no financial passports).
The exit campaigners had two lines of argument (besides promising less immigration, “take back control” and more NHS spending):
- Especially UKIP said, that GB would be economically better off outside the single market. Well, if you think that, the government should just trigger §50 and everything will be fine. I am fairly sure that almost no one in the political mainstream actually believes that to be true. Quite the contrary.
- The other argument (from the likes of Boris) was that GB could bully the EU into accepting their demands: we restrict the movement of people, but remain in the single market. We´ll see how this turns out, but I doubt that this is going to happen.
The current government is trapped between a rock and a hard place, because they can´t deliver what the Brexit campaign promised. The question that you´ll have to answer for yourself is: Are you willing to bear all the consequences that are associated with leaving the single market?

 

[JPRouve]

Considering that all the statistics available to us shows that a.) there is no flood, and b.) the labour isn't unskilled as migrants are actually typically higher educated than we are then I guess yes, it is to make that incorrect assumption. I guess it's easy though to buy into the Daily Mail's claims that half a billion uneducated immigrants pour into a town the size of Fordwich every week to steal both our jobs and somehow our benefits simultaneously but it doesn't make it true.

I actually understand the incorrect assumption, migrants are generally willing to do the "dirty" jobs, so locals assume that they are unskilled. I know oncologist who are cleaning hospitals, people probably think that they are unskilled.

 

[devilish]

Now come on Devilish that's a bit much

I think it’s a mix of all of those really. Let me start with the easiest parts

Total ignorance about politics – I come from a country were politics is a serious matter. Every general Election between 1976 & now had a voter turnout of around 92-97%. Politics has deep roots in our history. In matter of fact if you ask a local which national team his family tend to support you can figure out if he comes from a conservative family (ie if they support Italy) or the labour party (if they support England). This was the first time I voted in the British general election and I assure you I won’t be voting anymore. This system is all fecked up with the voter voting for some random guys he never even heard of and with a system which is so skewed that the 3rd most voted party ends up with just 1 seat in parliament. I live in a strong conservative area so basically there’s a bigger chance of seeing Farage giving a B Job to Juncker while shitting on an England’s flag then seeing a non Tory person being elected there. Under such circumstances why bother involving yourself in politics?

That is dangerous since politicians can dupe people in believing almost anything. Having a bogey man (ie the EU) which can be blamed of everything under the sun is a tempting proposition that very few politicians will allow to pass. Let’s face it, politicians are like football players. They are there on short term and they want to make the most of it. If a political party or a politician can add mileage to his political career by blaming others for any mistakes then well and good, especially if, by the end of the line, they can get a generous pension which will keep them financial independent for the rest of their days. Take Nigel Farage as an example. He’s retiring with an MEP pension, he’s allegedly applied for dual citizenship and is currently earning extra money by being the xenophobic parties poster boy. Not bad for someone who doesn’t have tertiary education.

I also blame the EU on this part. It’s far too complex for the common people to understand how it works and it’s too nice towards local governments who lie about the EU with impunity.

Nostalgia about the British Empire. I wonder why that’s even debated because that’s a natural thing. Most of the elderly people remember the British Empire and when the British had a big say in world politics and when the British were revered simply because they were British. I worked in tourism for many years, and I have friends within the local British expats community. One of the most common complaints I’ve encountered was that the locals simply do not respect the British anymore. They do have a point but their conclusion is often wrong. The new generation of locals treat the Brits as equals not as superiors. You cant blame them. These days the locals have tertiary education (probably from courses originated in the UK), they earn as much money as the Brits do and they had travelled/lived abroad. They don’t see the British as these super beings as their parents or grandparents did but simply as human beings coming from a different country. This desperate cry of returning a leader is echoed time and time again in politics. I’ve recently heard Theresa May’s vision about a globalized free trade world were the UK will be its leader. It does sound arrogant considered that China and the US had been doing free trade deals for more time than the UK did and they are by far a richer, stronger and more influential market. Why the hell would these financial and military superpowers allow the UK to lead?

And finally the difficult part – xenophobia. Irrespective of how you turn things around immigration was the big issue here. It’s still the one non-negotiable factor the UK will put forward when dealing with the EU. If immigration was really a problem then you would presume that those regions who voted for Brexit would be the ones with the highest capita of EU immigrants. However it’s not the case. London for example is a Remainer. Those who voted Brexit because of immigration are basically people who barely have any contact with immigrants themselves. Some even think (and I heard it many times), that Brexit will protect the UK from Islamic terrorism. As if the big majority of Islamic terrorists are Europeans.

To wrap up, its basically about populist politicians who fuelled xenophobia, nostalgia and ignorance as much as possible to avoid having to be accountable for themselves. I can list a long list of examples from Ukip having the laziest MEPs in Brussels (while they blame the foreigners to milk the system at home) to Cameron launching a referendum he knew could bring a disaster to UK just to have the rightist voters on his back right to Boris who supported something he hoped it will never win. Not to forget May who appointed a buffoon as the foreign secretary in the most delicate time in Britian’s recent history while hoping he’ll mess up big time and end up out of her way.

 

[soap]

I just hope you can enjoy your schadenfreude at the damage our exit will do to the EU as our own economy and industry tanks as a result of our ridiculous protest vote. Is working together with our nearest neighbours to ensure the betterment of the whole union so offensive to your xenophobic core that you'd rather we trash ourselves just to see everybody else suffer?

This really is an island of petty minded, vicious little bigots isn't it.

Much as it pains me to say it I think you're right!

 

[saivet]

Just read on the BBC that May has rejected the points based system. Turns out the hailed Australian style points system yielded a higher proportion of immigration than what we have in the EU. Different type of immigration I guess, but surely this couldn't have been that difficult to find out during the Remain's campaign.

 

[Adisa]

I have always thought a second referendum is likely. We probably won't get a simple in/out referendum. But something on the deal that has been degotiated. My question is if May is serious about making the best of it, why put loons in charge of our negotiations? I mean, Fox, Davies and Boris are idiots. Why put them in charge.

 

[Zarlak]

I have always thought a second referendum is likely. We probably won't get a simple in/out referendum. But something on the deal that has been degotiated. My question is if May is serious about making the best of it, why put loons in charge of our negotiations? I mean, Fox, Davies and Boris are idiots. Why put them in charge.

Because when it backfires, it will be them that takes the flak for it, rightfully so. Rather than Boris sitting back watching it fail as we said it always would and then smugly saying 'it was the people that let it down, the idea was solid, if I'd have done it it would have succeeded.'

 

[Bury Red]

I have always thought a second referendum is likely. We probably won't get a simple in/out referendum. But something on the deal that has been degotiated. My question is if May is serious about making the best of it, why put loons in charge of our negotiations? I mean, Fox, Davies and Boris are idiots. Why put them in charge.

I hope what she is playing at is giving them enough rope. If after 6 months all they can come up with is still worse than the deal we already have then there's a clear case for her to go back to the nation and ask if we really want to trigger article 50 and the confirmed shit show that Boris, Davies and Fox have cobbled together or just bin it and them together. She could have put better people in the positions and possibly lined up a more attractive package for the same proposal but if it looked vaguely negative the Brexit pack would have cried foul play, at least with 3 of their leaders at the helm there can be no denying that the shipwreck was of their own making.

Sadly it's a fairly slim hope in my opinion.

 

[sun_tzu]

Tariffs on a market which was previously free + higher salaries (due to control over immigration) will become a huge burden over these companies. Tax credit will help. However can the UK afford to reduce taxes to every business just to keep them there?

lets also remember that their production costs (in euros) just went down 15-20% since the referendum (due to £ devaluation) so its a more complex picture than you are painting

 

[GloryHunter07]

Sadly it's a fairly slim hope in my opinion.

Yup - but keep everything crossed!

 

[GloryHunter07]

Just read on the BBC that May has rejected the points based system. Turns out the hailed Australian style points system yielded a higher proportion of immigration than what we have in the EU. Different type of immigration I guess, but surely this couldn't have been that difficult to find out during the Remain's campaign.

Lots of campaign pledges being binned, but Brexiters will bang on about respecting democracy.

 

[Zarlak]

There is a flood relative to anything seen previously. As for skills, 72% of working migrants from EU10 countries currently in the UK are in unskilled jobs, compared to 59% of EU migrants and 45% of UK born. The education statistics for EU migrants as a whole over longer periods is obviously going to tend towards a higher level of education, it's irrelevant.

Nothing to do with stealing jobs or living on benefits. It's about wage compression, in-work benefits and tax credits, and pressure on local services. But sure, only acknowledge the lowest common denominator arguments and then ponder why Brexit won.

But there isn't a flood. Where exactly are you getting this information from? Everything you've written in your post is the lowest common denominator argument and has been thoroughly debunked time and time again.