Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Massive Spanner said:
What fecking choice do we have? Leave the EU?

Unlike half the UK we're not ignorant self-righteous cnuts and we actually appreciate the benefits of the EU, so no thanks.
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I guess the only alternative would be to agree with the EU that Ireland temporarily leave the single market/ customs union and align with the UK while negotiations take place.

Obviously Ireland won’t do that though as it would completely compromise its position in negotiations. And from what you’re saying it’s clear that remaining in the EU is more important than the GFA.
 
Buster15 said:
That will be the day that Boris would give specific answers to specify questions.
He has zero interest in understanding the details.
With him, it is all about posturing.
What perplexes me is how he continues to get away with it without being firmly challenged.
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None of the politicians have been seriously challenged. Brexit has brought to light the poor standard of politicians and journalists.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I guess the only alternative would be to agree with the EU that Ireland temporarily leave the single market/ customs union and align with the UK while negotiations take place.

Obviously Ireland won’t do that though as it would completely compromise its position in negotiations. And from what you’re saying it’s clear that remaining in the EU is more important than the GFA.
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Ahh... here we go - it's all Ireland's fault now.
 
balaks said:
Ahh... here we go - it's all Ireland's fault now.
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It’s Britain’s fault. Well, half of Britain.

But I’m thinking what will Ireland do and what will their priorities be, given the absolute shitshow in UK politics.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I guess the only alternative would be to agree with the EU that Ireland temporarily leave the single market/ customs union and align with the UK while negotiations take place.

Obviously Ireland won’t do that though as it would completely compromise its position in negotiations. And from what you’re saying it’s clear that remaining in the EU is more important than the GFA.
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:rolleyes:
 
balaks said:
Ahh... here we go - it's all Ireland's fault now.
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Don't worry, it's clear to the whole world outside of the UK that this is all entirely on the UK - they want to leave and have to be responsible for the consequences. Even if the Uk leaves with no deal they still have to pay their bill, still have to uphold the GFA and respect all the terms of the WA if they want any progress.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
It’s Britain’s fault. Well, half of Britain.

But I’m thinking what will Ireland do and what will their priorities be, given the absolute shitshow in UK politics.
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Ireland's priorities have been very clear - to protect the GFA and to ensure there is no return to a hard border on the island.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I'm genuinely baffled as to how they haven't gone for this approach now. The whole blocker was the DUP but they're basically irrelevant again now that the Tories have lost the majority.
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I still think that is where we might end up. It is seemingly the solution that solves all problems/pleases everybody (except for the DUP and a few hard-line ERG nutters, but who cares about that).
 
Infra-red said:
I still think that is where we might end up. It is seemingly the solution that solves all problems/pleases everybody (except for the DUP and a few hard-line ERG nutters, but who cares about that).
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The only workable solution to it is NI remaining the customs union, etc. but the DUP have constantly scuppered this and in fact the only reason they have agreed to the current suggestion (which also has them backtracking from their one 'red line issue') is that essentially the DUP and the DUP alone get a veto on it in 4 years. Effectively handing them all the power to decide on the future of these issues on the entire island of Ireland which is absolutely mental and something nobody in NI (outside of the DUP) can possibly accept. Yet again, sadly, the DUP have been given everything at the expense of the vast majority of people in NI who generally despise them.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I guess the only alternative would be to agree with the EU that Ireland temporarily leave the single market/ customs union and align with the UK while negotiations take place.

Obviously Ireland won’t do that though as it would completely compromise its position in negotiations. And from what you’re saying it’s clear that remaining in the EU is more important than the GFA.
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The UK has compromised the GFA and nobody else.

Aside from the history that would prevent Ireland from ever aligning itself with the UK, the current UK leadership has proven itself entirely untrustworthy and at best apathetic towards the needs and concerns of Ireland. It would be political and economic suicide to jeopardise our EU membership in order to align with and bail the UK out of the bed they have made for themselves.

If Ireland end up putting measures in place which go against the GFA, it is because they have been left no other alternative by Britain, not because remaining within the EU is more important, but because it is the only option left to us after the UK tore up the agreement and danced on the ashes.

If I sign a contract for a service and then stop paying for them, I can't wait until they shut me off and then shout that they have broken the contract too.
 
balaks said:
The only workable solution to it is NI remaining the customs union, etc. but the DUP have constantly scuppered this and in fact the only reason they have agreed to the current suggestion (which also has them backtracking from their one 'red line issue') is that essentially the DUP and the DUP alone get a veto on it in 4 years. Effectively handing them all the power to decide on the future of these issues on the entire island of Ireland which is absolutely mental and something nobody in NI (outside of the DUP) can possibly accept. Yet again, sadly, the DUP have been given everything at the expense of the vast majority of people in NI who generally despise them.
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Not 4 years, they can scupper it after 1 year if they want...which they do.
 
Sweet Square said:
Even the most 'liberal' remain people on here still talk about Ireland as if its owned by Britain.
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There is no doubt that Brexit has exposed a long held view of the UK - or lets be honest here, England - they are arrogant, feel they are more important than everybody else and are only too happy to bully the countries around them like they own them - obviously not directing this at individuals but sadly Brexit has given this impression.

As an Ulsterman I knew for most of my life that the rest of the UK (apart from maybe Scotland) really didn't give one shit about us and saw us as generally an irritant and a burden. It's one thing to kind of know that but it's another to have it in your face every day and out in the open like it is now. As a guy from a prod background who would probably have been broadly kind of unionist thinking it has me wondering that if there was a border poll in the morning would I really feel happy voting to remain in a union with other countries who honestly couldn't give a toss what happens to us? Makes you think and I'm sure a lot of others are thinking the same thing.
 
What is the divorce bill the UK owe the EU?

Perhaps someone could negotiate that fee be set aside to subsidise what it is eventually going to cost Ireland and the EU to pay for a united Ireland. I think it's going to be an economic and logistical nightmare but it's growing more and more inevitable every day as actors like the Tory government, brexiteers and the DUP demonstrate their blatant disregard for the people of this island.
 
diarm said:
What is the divorce bill the UK owe the EU?

Perhaps someone could negotiate that fee be set aside to subsidise what it is eventually going to cost Ireland and the EU to pay for a united Ireland. I think it's going to be an economic and logistical nightmare but it's growing more and more inevitable every day as actors like the Tory government, brexiteers and the DUP demonstrate their blatant disregard for the people of this island.
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It's many billions - Boris has been talking like the UK wont need to pay back this money if there is a no-deal. I don't see how they cant pay it as it has been already agreed upon and to go back on that would single the UK out as no longer being trustworthy in relation to borrowing. That would not be a smart move given the amount of debt the UK is in and how much we rely on accessing more cash just to keep the show on the road.
 
balaks said:
Ireland's priorities have been very clear - to protect the GFA and to ensure there is no return to a hard border on the island.
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... so long as it doesn’t impact or change Ireland’s relationship with the rest of the EU.

I’m not blaming them for that at all. It’s what I’d do too. I think they have their priorities right.
 
Sweet Square said:
Even the most 'liberal' remain people on here still talk about Ireland as if its owned by Britain.
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That's mostly because even the most fair minded English person is drip fed a constant barrage of colonial nostalgia, English exceptionalism, and jingoistic chest pounding from the age of about 4. Even if you're aware of it, it's not difficult to see how it colours the debate.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
... so long as it doesn’t impact or change Ireland’s relationship with the rest of the EU.

I’m not blaming them for that at all. It’s what I’d do too. I think they have their priorities right.
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Well that goes without saying as Ireland aren't the ones looking to change their EU status, why should it be imposed upon them?
 
balaks said:
It's many billions - Boris has been talking like the UK wont need to pay back this money if there is a no-deal. I don't see how they cant pay it as it has been already agreed upon and to go back on that would single the UK out as no longer being trustworthy in relation to borrowing. That would not be a smart move given the amount of debt the UK is in and how much we rely on accessing more cash just to keep the show on the road.
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The figures quoted three years ago will be out of date now as a lot will already have been paid during the current EU long-term budget, which only runs to next year anyway. There might be specific longer-term projects the UK has agreed to pay for separately, and of course EU staff pensions and so on, but it won't be quite as big a deal as it once appeared. In any event we should pay it, as you say.
 
balaks said:
Well that goes without saying as Ireland aren't the ones looking to change their EU status, why should it be imposed upon them?
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No one is imposing things. Ireland is a sovereign nation like any other and can make up its own mind what international agreements it prioritises over others and what trading and political relationships it wants in the future.

Where we are currently, almost unbelievably, is that there will be two customs territories on the island in less than a month’s time. The GFA just isn’t really capable of coping with that. It’s going to be a shitshow, as the good lord buckethead once proclaimed.
 
balaks said:
It's many billions - Boris has been talking like the UK wont need to pay back this money if there is a no-deal. I don't see how they cant pay it as it has been already agreed upon and to go back on that would single the UK out as no longer being trustworthy in relation to borrowing. That would not be a smart move given the amount of debt the UK is in and how much we rely on accessing more cash just to keep the show on the road.
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I'm sure i read that technically we've already started paying it as it's factored into our continued payments now and under the formal transition.
 
NinjaFletch said:
That's mostly because even the most fair minded English person is drip fed a constant barrage of colonial nostalgia, English exceptionalism, and jingoistic chest pounding from the age of about 4. Even if you're aware of it, it's not difficult to see how it colours the debate.
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I was told in junior school that the English army was the best in the world; the English judiciary were the best in the world; the English government etc etc. This was in Wales, btw.
 
Massive Spanner said:
What fecking choice do we have? Leave the EU?

Unlike half the UK we're not ignorant self-righteous cnuts and we actually appreciate the benefits of the EU, so no thanks.
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There'd have to be some sort of temporary exemption agreed with the EU where the border is left open until a resolution is solved if a hard Brexit happens. The idea that a neo-liberal trading club is more important than peace in Ireland is fairly absurd.
 
diarm said:
What is the divorce bill the UK owe the EU?

Perhaps someone could negotiate that fee be set aside to subsidise what it is eventually going to cost Ireland and the EU to pay for a united Ireland. I think it's going to be an economic and logistical nightmare but it's growing more and more inevitable every day as actors like the Tory government, brexiteers and the DUP demonstrate their blatant disregard for the people of this island.
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There is no divorce bill as such, what the UK have to pay is what they owe because of commitments already agreed to. If they leave with no deal they won't be paying for the transition period which was supposedly calculated within the 39bn figure that was bandied about.
 
Honest John said:
Or that Ireland leaves the EU too. There is the GFA, common travel area and from day one, alignment of regs ect. They would would have to go back to the Punt though.
Would there be be much support for a move like that?
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Absolutely not. Ireland is a fan of the EU
 
Classical Mechanic said:
There'd have to be some sort of temporary exemption agreed with the EU where the border is left open until a resolution is solved if a hard Brexit happens. The idea that a neo-liberal trading club is more important than peace in Ireland is fairly absurd.
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You haven't a clue what you're on about.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
There'd have to be some sort of temporary exemption agreed with the EU where the border is left open until a resolution is solved if a hard Brexit happens. The idea that a neo-liberal trading club is more important than peace in Ireland is fairly absurd.
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So NI is staying in the SM and CU then. I can't actually believe you wrote that.
 
balaks said:
There is no doubt that Brexit has exposed a long held view of the UK - or lets be honest here, England - they are arrogant, feel they are more important than everybody else and are only too happy to bully the countries around them like they own them - obviously not directing this at individuals but sadly Brexit has given this impression.

As an Ulsterman I knew for most of my life that the rest of the UK (apart from maybe Scotland) really didn't give one shit about us and saw us as generally an irritant and a burden. It's one thing to kind of know that but it's another to have it in your face every day and out in the open like it is now. As a guy from a prod background who would probably have been broadly kind of unionist thinking it has me wondering that if there was a border poll in the morning would I really feel happy voting to remain in a union with other countries who honestly couldn't give a toss what happens to us? Makes you think and I'm sure a lot of others are thinking the same thing.
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There’s definitely an element of that. As someone who’s family is originally from Wales and lived in England all my life, I think most of the English don’t really draw a meaningful distinction in status between the Irish, Scots and Welsh. To them, they’re just the other bits of the islands attached to England. They’re aware that Ireland is actually a different country, obviously, but I think they instinctively see it in much the same way they see Scotland.
 
SteveJ said:
I was told in junior school that the English army was the best in the world; the English judiciary were the best in the world; the English government etc etc. This was in Wales, btw.
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Yep, I think it was at A Level where I was first actually taught that the empire wasn't just some jolly jape where we beat France 1-0 in the 'who had the biggest Empire?' world cup. Even then, the course concluded by listening to a podcast where that cock head Niall Ferguson argued that the Empire was a force for good and that, even if it wasn't, the French were worse than us so we saved all the foreigns from what they would have done.

It's laughable, obviously, but if you're going to have to take history to university level before you can even begin to break free of the shackles of England's romantically reconstructed past it's no wonder that many struggle to do so.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Niall Ferguson argued that the Empire was a force for good and that, even if it wasn't, the French were worse than us so we saved all the foreigns from what they would have done.
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That kind of special pleading rather undermines his initial argument.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
There is no divorce bill as such, what the UK have to pay is what they owe because of commitments already agreed to. If they leave with no deal they won't be paying for the transition period which was supposedly calculated within the 39bn figure that was bandied about.
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I get the impression that this is a strong motivation for Boris to try to force a no deal.
He probably needs some or all of it to fund his lavish spending plans.
To me, the biggest concern about this is the dangerous loss of being part of the European space, science and technology programmes.
As we all know, Britain on its own will suffer badly without access to these long term projects.
Anyway. Just get it done is far more important than long term future programmes which pay massive dividends to our science capabilities.
 
SteveJ said:
I was told in junior school that the English army was the best in the world; the English judiciary were the best in the world; the English government etc etc. This was in Wales, btw.
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In fairness there’s not a lot you can say about wales apart from sur Ryan :)
 
Buster15 said:
I get the impression that this is a strong motivation for Boris to try to force a no deal.
He probably needs some or all of it to fund his lavish spending plans.
To me, the biggest concern about this is the dangerous loss of being part of the European space, science and technology programmes.
As we all know, Britain on its own will suffer badly without access to these long term projects.
Anyway. Just get it done is far more important than long term future programmes which pay massive dividends to our science capabilities.
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We’ll send you an e-card from the moon when we’re all living in the EU colony and the uk has shrank due to rising tides, people are all living like in waterworld, pm is Bojos head in a jar and everyone is still banging on about fishing rights
 
If Brexit is so important to the Tories, I don’t see what their issue is with leaving NI in the Single Market. It’s a tiny market, ~1% of the UK economy. And it’s not lost or anything stupid like that. It merely means that in a deregulated Britain a certain small subsector of goods might be barred or subject to tariffs. That’s it. The golden goose for those feckers should be the GB market which is 2.66tr not the 40b market of NI, that’s a drop in the ocean.

Single Market laws only make up about 20% of the legislation coming out of the EU. From the 23,000 EU laws currently in force, the EEA (Norway zone) has incorporated around 5,000, the rest don’t apply. That's the laws NI would have to sign up to. And all the EU 23,000 laws are still only a fraction of the total body of laws for a country like the UK. In no way is it like it's surrendering control of NI to EU like some right-wing, chest-thumpers proclaim. It's redonkulous.

Ultimately the decision should be NI's to take.
 
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