DEY TEWK AHR JAWBS.. I MEAN.. GERRONVITIT
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
- Start date
TB is making a comeback 
Yeah, we know that. And he's right. But it's impossible to have a referendum with the current parliament.
The referendum act will need to be voted by parliament. What options would be in the referendum? If Govt picks May's deal vs No Deal, there's no chance this parliament will let that get to the people as it's irresponsible. DUP would vote it down because they don't like the backstop. SNP/Lib Dems want Deal vs Remain, they won't compromise on a referendum with Remain off the table especially if no-Deal is on it. And Labour are down-voting everything to get the election they want ("we'll negotiate our own deal").
So what he's saying is "this is undemocratic" but I have no workable alternative to offer.
Yes, that's why I see impeachment if he decides to squat for those 14 days despite another government having the confidence of the commons. Probably the only way to remove him fast enough, and avoids dragging in the judiciary or the queen. It's hugely arcane, but any wriggle he attempts at this point is also massively so. Just the thread *should* be explosive enough to make him stand down though. Imagine a trial for treason against the Prime Minister. It's almost unthinkable.
the issue is some are saying it will be official labour policy to campaign for remain , some saying it will be official policy to campaign for leave - probably they should say official policy will be people can have a free vote but at the moment they wont confirm any of them officially
I suspect they will end conference with something along the lines of:
no renegotiation as it will take too long and they want to resolve brexit
so a referendum ASAP with remain and the current withdrawal agreement (as amended in the cross part discussions)
labour policy will be to allow a free vote
He did conduct himself like a true parliamentarian. Wouldn't go as far as to say I liked him, but you can tell he did his job well because the Tories hated him.
Still think Betty Boothroyd was the best speaker of recent times. Could strike fear.
Lib Dems postion is the stupidest thing yet.
He’s got no solution to offer though. So, a bit like the current parliament, he’s just saying what he doesn’t like but not what he likes or what is workable.
That would mean the Queen having to dismiss the PM (against his will), though! I'm sure she'd be absolutely delighted about being dragged in to that one!
Gnu is not Unix!
With a minority govt I don't think a ref 2 is inconceivable anymore. The levels if opposition co-operation are such that compromise can be reached and it's not impossible it could get the numbers.
The Conservatives are almost certainly going to form a non-aggression electoral pact with The Brexit Party, though. Do you think that in that scenario TBP will end up without a single seat?
Yes, but, in classic Lib Dem style, they can say what they want because they know they won't win.
Very scary prospect. Not like, exactly what’s happening right now, not at all. I’m very spooked.
TBP and Tories are already campaigning to get us out with no deal despite neither of them wanting to give a people’s vote and the fact that all of them said no-deal Brexit was project fear during the campaigning and no one voted for that. Ergo, without any other democratic mandate other than the one coming from this very election. So the Lib Dem stance, it’s purely balance.
Oh and Lib Dems are very unlikely to win a majority, as you know. So this is also played from a safe position.
How does that non-aggression pact work? TBP has never been in an election before, it’s a new party. Even under the UKIP incarnation of Farage, they never got close to winning a seat, did they?
What are those TBP marginals that Tories won’t contest for Farage to win? If you mean the seats that are deep red (or yellow), with small to no prospect of Tory win, then what makes you think TBP will get more votes than Labour or Lib Dem/SNP in those areas?
Not one person has made a GNU/Linux joke yet?
The politics/open source crossover is weak on the caf...
The politics/open source crossover is weak on the caf...
TB is making a comeback
Like a drug-resistant bacteria.
But this would be based on it going through parliament. Because that’s what has to happen - parliament votes on treaty change. The tweet is supposing that there’s a dictatorship and laws can be made without parliament’s authority.
If parliament votes for it, that’ll be fair enough. (All things being equal obviously).
There's literally nothing stopping that happening regardless of what the Lib Dems position is or isnt.
I'd be tempted to vote Lib Dems if their new policy is revocation. I just don't have the appetite for a renegotiation with the EU (to get a deal which will be extremely similar to May's), and then to hold a second referendum. The whole thing will take 18-24 months if not longer. I don't think I'm alone in that either.
That said, I fully expect a hung Parliament and for the deadlock to continue.
That said, I fully expect a hung Parliament and for the deadlock to continue.
What looks to be likely is that the Govt will go for some kind of judicial review of this new anti-no deal law. Boris was adamant he won't extend and must be doing so on the basis that they can find a legal workaround. In the meantime he will try to find an alternative to the NI backstop, possibly without DUP approval, as they are no longer effectively in coalition any more. He may even get European approval of it when goes to meet them, but it will be a token deal, which he knows won't pass Parliament but will allow him to say I have tried, it's Labour's fault that we will exit with no deal as they turned down May 3 times and me once. It will take some Parliamentary time to debate that proposed deal, plus the Queen's speech, some pressing NI issues etc., with very little time left before 31st. Opposition go for Vote of No Confidence, Boris sits on it for the less than 14 days it will be before No deal defaults. Maybe a GNU comes in after 31st, but only to announce the election and dissolve Parliament.
Next election most likely a Post-No deal election. Which will have a big impact on Brexit Party vote, on Lib Dems manifesto, slaying both of their relevance. Boris then wins a majority.
Labour's only hope is to somehow, judicially, force Boris out before 31st, and manage to get the other parties to form a coalition to get a majority. He should have taken the election offer, was more likely path than the alternative.
Next election most likely a Post-No deal election. Which will have a big impact on Brexit Party vote, on Lib Dems manifesto, slaying both of their relevance. Boris then wins a majority.
Labour's only hope is to somehow, judicially, force Boris out before 31st, and manage to get the other parties to form a coalition to get a majority. He should have taken the election offer, was more likely path than the alternative.
Exactly. And as if the party proroguing Parliament at the time of a national crisis, that was found in contempt of parliament a few months back, that is trying every single trick in the book (including potentially breaking the law) to get no-deal through the back door... would be a stickler for precedence if it won a large majority in the very near future. What dreamland are these people living in, sell me a ticket to it.
Also elections are more of a democratic mandate than referendums anyway. The latter are advisory and non-binding.
I've already said this, the opposition's tactics, not just lib Dems are going to come back and bite them in their collective arses big time.
Short terms wins might be all the rage now but boy is it going to cause havoc down the line.
Yeah just because the right is being stupid doesn't mean everyone else should as well.
Of course but the Lib Dem position just adds more fuel to the already massive dumpster fire that is UK politics.
Why given such a boost to right and far right of Britain.
Pretty much. Although its quite a standard ''liberal'' outcome these days. You basically put forward awful politics, pollute the political environment and then looked all confused when things go bang.
But it's the rich London Brexiteers that are playing pied piper with the poor.
actually, you know what, i'm all in on a no deal Brexit now. Cheap fags and booze! I spose both countries will need it when we're all in the shitter.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0910/1075021-duty-free-brexit/
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0910/1075021-duty-free-brexit/
It depends on what you judge the mood of the electorate to be, I suppose. I doubt that those that buy into the idea of some great betrayal myth haven't already bought into it and, on the other hand, offering revocation of A50 (as esmufc suggests) does have the advantage of offering a solution to the Brexit question. If Brexit fatigue is being offered as as an explanation for the attraction of a no deal, then it's equally plausible that revoking A50 could attract support for the same reason that holding a second ref doesn't.
Longer term I don't think it's a bad precedent to set. Referendums are a bad idea for myriad reasons, and we've seen almost all of them over the past 3 years. The precedent that Parliament establishes our relationship with the EU hasn't gone anywhere, even if they decided to ask people's opinion directly in 2016, and I don't really see how we can be in a worse position by asking people to voice their opinion on whether they want to be a member of the EU at an election rather than a referendum. In this hypothetical situation where a far-right government win enough votes to force a no-deal Brexit through Parliament I don't think a referendum would afford us much protection.
Last edited:
I'm expecting another delay. If the EU makes an offer i presume your parliament cant debate and vote on it and you'd expect it to pass. Wouldn't you?
I'm not sure how relevant Boris Johnson is anymore. How much of the Prime Ministers power comes from traditionally having the support of a majority of the house? He's obviously testing how much he can get away with without that support. So i suppose the courts will have a pretty big say. You have an odd set up really. You really should formalise a constitution. You seem to exist in a weird situation where the law is whatever a majority in parliament says it is on the day you ask. With a couple of figureheads to oversee it, one of which does as little as possible and the other is there to either enforce or weasel their way out of carrying out that judgement.
I wonder how many posting on this thread wonder whether the upcoming Party Conferences will make the Brexit situation more complicated or much clearer?
a)How will Party Managers handle things?
b)Will the rank and file make any difference to what each party's policy is and how it might change?
c)Will there be any signs from each conference that there is room for any sort of compromise whatsoever, when clearly remainers want to stay, whatever the cost to the future of UK politics of going against the referendum result and Leavers want to leave, many now without any deal, they just want out, whatever the hit on the economy?
d) Will Boris be the first sitting UK PM to go to jail for his principles?
e) Will Jeremy become the first Marxist PM in the UK?
d) Will Swinson still be leader of the Lib-Dem's at the end of their conference?
a)How will Party Managers handle things?
b)Will the rank and file make any difference to what each party's policy is and how it might change?
c)Will there be any signs from each conference that there is room for any sort of compromise whatsoever, when clearly remainers want to stay, whatever the cost to the future of UK politics of going against the referendum result and Leavers want to leave, many now without any deal, they just want out, whatever the hit on the economy?
d) Will Boris be the first sitting UK PM to go to jail for his principles?
e) Will Jeremy become the first Marxist PM in the UK?
d) Will Swinson still be leader of the Lib-Dem's at the end of their conference?
Why would Swinson lose the Lib Dem leadership?
c - Maybe Labour can come up with something? They seem to be the only hope for a compromise people could tolerate.
d - Doubt it. How long would the sentence be? I could see him hanging out in a prison for a week as a bizarre publicity stunt type situation. It'd probably be a pretty effective way to delay past the 31st. He has no principles, he'll do whatever's in his interest and any kind of extended prison sentence isn't that.
e - It'll be his last chance. Dont see it. People might surprise me but i think they'll vote for the more fringe positions on Brexit.
f - Is she under any kind of pressure?
Farage outlined the terms of the potential pact in The Telegraph at the weekend. Essentially, the Tories would give TBP a free run at certain Labour-held seats in Leave-voting areas in the North, Midlands and South Wales. Meanwhile, TBP wouldn't field candidates in Tory-held seats where splitting the Leave vote might see Labour/Lib Dems get in.
But revoking doesn't(Other than meaning a certain section of society can stop thinking about politics and is hassle free when traveling to France). Ok we would remain in the EU but doesn't solve the crisis of British politics which is what Brexit is actually about.
Referendum are fine, the issue was how the simplistic the one in 2016 was. As for precedent, its the precedent is to hold referendums on being members of the EU(And I say this as someone who would like to get rid of both referendum and parliamentary democracy)
Also its hard enough to keep the coalition of left/liberal together, this lib dem policy doesn't do to help this cause(Radicalised Remain people aren't a help to anyone).
Last edited:
And neither does no deal, of course, but both of those options are a far easier sell to the electorate that it is the end of the process than a renegotiation/referendum.
Nah, referendums are always terrible because they run directly antithetical to the point of a representative democracy. It's a dereliction of duty from MPs to decide that certain issues are too difficult for them and should be farmed out to people who can not be expected to be as informed on an issue as people whose job it is to be informed on these issues. They also, as we have seen, deny people the right to change their minds and create an arbitrary line in the sand. That's as true for the indyref and AV ref as it is for the Brexit one.
And on precedent whilst you're right that Parliament has twice held advisory referendums on our membership of the EU neither of them had any legal force and both required an act of Parliament to be enacted. Parliament, regardless of whether it seeks opinion or (were the referendum binding) licenses out its authority, remains in charge of administering our relationship with the EU – a fact firmly established in law through the Miller case and clearly in evidence when Britain adopted the Mastricht treaty without holding a referendum.
Damn, as soon as I quit booze and fags, duty frees come back to Europe
Well I think you've learnt a lesson here Jippy, being healthy is for losers.Damn, as soon as I quit booze and fags, duty frees come back to Europe
You don't win friends with salad, you don't win friends with salad!
Others have set the dumbster on fire and are actively pouring gallons of gasoline in it, but god forbid we flick a lit match into. That's what would be stupid. Let me clutch my pearls harder.
Oh yeah those reprehensible tactics of the remain alliance! How atrocious!
That might give the hard right ground to do things such as:
- Break electoral law
- Weaponise racism, nationalism and prejudice (mixed with lies)
- Be found in contempt of parliament
- Backstab their own PM and vote down Brexit on every opportunity.
- Perform a position switcheroo from "We'll get a deal. Everything else is project fear. No one voted no deal/WTO" to "People knew they were voting no deal". While simultaneously "If No Deal happens it's the fault of the EU"
- Expel any MP that has a different opinion or disagrees with the switcheroo
- Prorogue the parliament to reduce government scrutiny, while being caught lying about working on a deal
- Try to turn the people against Parliament because the switcheroo is not working
- Threaten to break the law
Havoc down the line? We're already in havoc and not because of anything the opposition did. Every written or unwritten rule broken so far, in search of sort term gains, was from the people in the hard right of the Conservative party. You don't get to say "I told you so" when everything goes to shit due to actions started and perpetrated by the hard right.
Last edited:
Got elected less than 2 months ago with 3/4 of the votes and has seen a significant increase in the party's membership since. She has also strengthened the party's position in the HoC and became an active player in blocking BoJo at every turn.
The voices concerned by the influx of non-Liberal MPs are few and mostly quiet because while uncomfortable with what's happening they acknowledge the extra-ordinary circumstances in politics right now and the ends justifying some means.
She's literally under 0 threat at the moment and there's no one to even challenge her.